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Deep into Islam..

Discussion in 'Self Improvement' started by Venom, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Venom

    Venom Well-Known Member

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    I have a questions to Muslim friends, since before the prophet the arabs didn't believe in God and they were pagans , how come the father of Muhammed is called Abd Allah?

    he got the name later or he was Christian/Jew or some sect that believed in God.

    thanks
     
  2. Picasso

    Picasso Well-Known Member
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    لم يكن جميعُ العرب يعبدونَ الأصنامَ والأوثان، أو الكواكبَ والنار، بل كانَ بينهم مذاهب وديانات أخرى كالنصرانية واليهودية، وكانَ بينهم الأحناف أيضاً وهم على دينِ النبيّ إبراهيم، فاعتزلوا عبادةَ الأوثان وآمنوا بالله ووحدانيته ​
     
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  3. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Well-Known Member
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    if there are no religions, people will find another reason to kill each other. Maybe that's why there are religions.... cause there wasn't any before.

    I don't think religions per se are the the problem, it is the religious people who are sometimes (or most of the time) the problem.

    Most religions, at their core, provide or provided at one point some value to humanity, and in most cases, have philosophical and positive messages. Unfortunately, human beings always find a way to use such messages or other minor details in religion to justify their crimes and hate towards the others...

    Another thing that sometimes bothers me about religions, is that they are used by the clergy to scare people and brainwash them to the point that they start believing that everyone who does not believe AS MUCH AS THEY DO, the that someone is a sinner/kafir going to hell... which promotes intolerance, hate and eventually violence.
     
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  4. Picasso

    Picasso Well-Known Member
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    Much could be said about religions but I'd like to highlight what I think people should give more importance , there is the known literary and artistic aspect of the religious experience, but there is also what is usually missed: the funny part of this experience, take the following quote as an example.

    "[The Emperor Akbar] invited Jesuit missionaries to visit him. Some of the letters which they sent after arriving at his court have survived. At first the Jesuits were impressed by his apparent desire to become a Christian, but later they were disheartened by his being under the influence of opium, cannabis and alcohol during religious discussions."
     
  5. false Morel

    false Morel New Member

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    This thread is to examine Islam as a religion from within. Going deep into the Quran, the Hadith, and the Islamic history and tradition, discussing the controversial parts and segments.

    For ex-Muslims, and specifically atheists, this will be a chance to elaborate on the reasons and evidence they left Islam. And for Muslims, it's a chance to try and reply to these claims and controversies.

    This thread will not serve as an attack on Islam.
    Many members would jump in exploiting this to turn it into flame wars and comment on something they lack complete knowledge of!
    Such input is to be reported immediately and I ask any member who is in for a serious discussion not to reply to such input and stick to reporting it.
    Any member giving any piece of information without a reference or quoting the source shall be reported immediately.

    Opinions and contributions are restricted to those who have knowledge on the matter.
    If somebody is reading and following the discussion and feels like asking for more elaborations on a certain part, please stick to questions and not comment in any sort over a subject with lack of knowledge on.

    Any sort of sarcasm, aggressive comments, or unserious input shall be reported.

    I dearly ask the mods to approve these set of rules and help us maintain this thread clean and on topic.

    The flow of the thread is best to be done one topic at a time.
    One topic shall be addressed, and only after all arguments are submitted, with or without the two sides agreeing on a common ground, we move on to the next topic.
    I here ask anyone who would like to present a topic to message me in private first over the details so that we avoid presenting several topics at the same time.

    Since this thread is meant as a platform for ex-Muslims to express themselves, they will submit each topic after the other. And Muslims over here are then free to reply and express their counter arguments. Please stick to this order and not jump into defending or replying to something without any complete argument submitted first.
    Only Islam specific stuff shall be addressed in this thread. General religious and spiritual topics shall be left out of this thread.

    What is the purpose of all this?
    To build a reference or database of well written and expressed intellectual arguments from both sides, so that the active sides themselves exchange knowledge and potentially switch sides, and for anyone surfing the forum and have interest in such discussion, to read and gain knowledge. Specially for those agnostics who still stand in the middle undecided.

    I will start by the least controversial and "weakest" arguments and higher the level as we go on..
    Quoting a verse from the Syrian thread about instructions to deal with Kafara or pagans, let's start by discussing the chapter, Al Tawba in the Quran.

    I will construct my own argument in a following post, but will leave some time to get the approval from the mods first.
    For anyone who would like to submit any input on the first topic, please wait first for the mods to leave us the approval post.
     
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  6. Dark Angel

    Dark Angel Well-Known Member

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    i like the quasi academic approach false morel is adopting. below is surat at-tawba he suggested to begin with, translated to english, since the original arabic text is rather difficult to understand, even for maronites :p


    Verses 1-4:[1]
    “ [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. ”
    The famous Sword verse and the following verses (6-8) read as follows:[1]
    “ And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. ”
    Verse 9-13:[1]
    “ They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors. But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers. ”
    Verse 14 reads as follows:[1]
    “ Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people ”
    Verse 29 reads as follows:
    “ Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.[2] ”
    The Surah explains how Allah views pagans and also the People of the Book:
    “ The Jews call 'Uzair the son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! [3] ”
    Verse 37 documents the prohibition of Nasīʾ:
    “ Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: The Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.[4]

    source
     
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  7. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone explain to me what happened to the old threads that had pages and pages of explanations? We went over these verses, and every other verse!, numerous times and I did most of the work. I can't find them.

    Dark Angel You need to site the Soura as well as the verse number.

    "Sword" verse without sword in it? You can't be serious... You're making it 'famous' too lol... The word 'sword' isn't mentioned in the Qur'an. The sword verse is Biblical.

    Oh and another thing before we start. For someone who can read Arabic, bringing in English translations is no good. You know that meanings are lost in translation because it's subject to interpretation. In other words, a Qur'an translated by a Sunni scholar is different to one translated by a Wahhabi scholar and different to one translated by a Shiaa scholar. You're going to have to become an Arab on this thread and I (and the other Shiaa here - if we have time!) will provide you with the accruate translation.
     
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  8. JB81

    JB81 Well-Known Member

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    As a Christian. I believe that much of the quraan is made by Muhamed and his companions to serve their political power over Arabia. Therefore, you could see many of the verses contradict each others, as Mohamed was a pragmatic person. When he is weak, there are the tolerant verses that aim to have peace with the others until Muhamed gather enough power to strike. Than, he issues blasphemy verses to subdue his enemies.

    What concern me that in today's world, we ought to look for enlighten scholars in Islam to read this verses in light of 21st century age. For instant, In Christianity, similar verses from the OT are out of question. For this, I salute and respect Imam Shams el Din and Imam Fadallah, Imam Hassoun and Al Bouti
     
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  9. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    Had more than one person made the Qur'an, you would've had more than one Qur'an or at least many versions of it (as is the case with the Bible). Some takfiri Sunnis accuse the Shia of having another book called "The Book of Fatima" because they are brainwahsed into the belief that the Qur'an was brought together by 'sayyedhon', dismissing the fact that 'sayyedna' was the first Muslim and the first Pupil the Prophet had. Had the 'companions' made the Qur'an, the Shiaa would've had a different Qur'an to the Sunnis.

    There is no contradiction in the Qur'an, and we will get to that. The contradiction exists between the Qur'an and the Hadith, not between Qur'anic verses. Qur'anic chapters tell 'stories' with historical significance and for educational purposes. Taking verses out of context is heresy and it's something God warns against and threatens with eternal damnation in the book itself (we will get to that also).

    What makes the NT accepted but the OT rejected? Do you deny the messengers before you? You don't, so you can't deny their message. If you want to fault the OT, then there is no reason why you don't fault the NT, especially considering the fact that the NT is attached to the OT and it draws back with reference to it. However, this is not the topic, so we'll stick to the topic :)
     
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  10. Genius

    Genius Well-Known Member

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    there are no contradictions?? :p

    Can you tell me if christians are considered Kuffar or not ?? what are they?
     
  11. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    No there's no contradiction, there are many elements of Christianity which we will also get to (hopefully). A Kafer, according to Shiaa doctrine, is someone who doesn't believe in God. Christians believe in the same God Jews and Muslims believe in, so they are not kuffar.

    In plain English, a Kafer is an atheist, not a theist.
     
  12. Genius

    Genius Well-Known Member

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    Al mai'dah 5:72 ...

    5:72
    Sahih International
    They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.
    5:73
    to top
    5:73
    Sahih International
    They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

    Kuffar w noss ....

    Read al Maidah ,,,, kill se3a shee ... yes no yes no ...
     
  13. Dark Angel

    Dark Angel Well-Known Member

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    it is true that some of the meaning is changed with every translation, rather also with every explanation even in arabic, due to the fact that often times different people would interpret the same text differently. but that challenges the divine perspective on the nature of the Quran, which common sense indicates that it should not be subject to a multitude of interpretations. i read that soura in arabic several times, and i wasn't able to grasp the meaning, the words and the construct are from a different era, something that makes the meaning rather distant, and i do not consider myself to be mentally challenged. now let's go ahead and imagine this text being read by someone whose first language is not arabic, what exactly would they understand? the fact that the Quran itself imposes linguistic restrictions deeply impacts its interpretation. in pakistan and afganistan, scholars tell the people who are unable to read the arabic version of the quran, that they gain a reward simply by running their finger on the lines as if they were reading it, while many others recite many souras in arabic, without understanding a single word. it is obvious that the Quran favors the conservation of the form over the ease of understanding.

    that last statement is problematic by itself. the Quran restricted itself to a certain fate by claiming that people modified the "torah" and the "injil" and thus corrupted God's true religion. that claim enticed islam to lock the form of the quran. to the point where it became much more useful - even to people skilled in today's arabic language - to read an interpreted copy rather than the original text and interpret it themselves, because the form is no longer comprehensible in our day and age, as not only the construct of the arabic language has evolved but also its wording.

    as to the biblical verses, i would rather we discuss that in a thread entitled deep into Christianity, so that we wont end up with the sort of comparisons that would get some people so zealous to put Christ and Mohammed together in an arena and have them fight to death to prove whose God is stronger.
     
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  14. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    We'll get to these. Muslims cannot marry the 'kuffar' but can marry Jews and Christians because they are monotheists.

    I need to rush, so I can't talk in detail. I read the Qur'an and understand every single word. The only time I don't understand is when 'what event is this talking about?'.

    The Torah and Bible are corrupted, proof is in the pudding. Do you want to talk about it on another thread? With an open mind and heart? :biggrin: You'd need to explain to me why I'd choose the Bible over the Qur'an when clearly the Qur'an is more logical. Mohammad doesn't need to fight with Jesus over a God they share. That's absurd to say the least.
     
  15. Genius

    Genius Well-Known Member

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    nobody reads and interprets. .... Everyone i know around me, many many muslims hardly know the texts, they read and do not understand, so many puzzles ... so they end up going to Imams and Sheikhs for clarifications.

    Here is the contradiction ... The Quran claims that the message is very clear !!

    So why do you need an Imam to study and explain when Allah himself said the message is very clear for all times.

    And there are sooooooooo many different variations and explanations and interpretations ...actually more than the bible, so how does a muslim choose which Imam to choose? how do i know i am following the right path ?
     
  16. Genius

    Genius Well-Known Member

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    Ok - so a man can marry a woman christian or Jew. ... but aren't they najseen and impure?

    With all the hate in the Quran to the jews, Sons of apes ... now when it comes to niikah and sex. it becomes halal? How does a man sleep with an impure kafra? (yes christians are kuffar ...... the text above clearly said it ....) How is she good to have and raise his children?

    isnt that a contradiction ???
     
  17. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    I have to make it clear that I will withdraw from this thread if I'm going to be forced to debate ignorance. The Jews aren't apes ya fat7al. I guess you are surrounded by Talmudians. Now I have to go.
     
  18. Dark Angel

    Dark Angel Well-Known Member

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    historically speaking there is evidence that the Quran was subjected to a serious manipulation when it was first gathered. Ali's copy of the Quran was discarded in favor of another that was collected and written mainly at the request of abu bakr. even predating that event, in fact some scholars believe that some of the verses were lost after the battle of yamama during which many of the companions were killed. to note that the battle took place 10 years after prophet Muhammad had passed away. that battle was the motivation to put the Quran down in writing until then some of the Quran was memorized, some was written down on manuscripts. Zeid bin Thabet was chosen to the task. now to give the guy credit, he reluctantly took the job because he realized the depth of that responsibility, and to point out how fragile some of that work was i will quote from sahih el bukhary, as narrated by zaid bin thabet himself (and this also coincides with surat at-tawba mentioned earlier):

    Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
    Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started, searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him.


    in addition, some companions claim that at least three revelations were left out, including one pointed out by Aisha, as narrated by hadith musllim. very delicate subject so i will skip over the details.

    the compilation written by zaid bin thabet was then kept with abou bakr, then with umar, and after umar it went to his daughter Hafsa who was one of the prophet's wives. at a later stage, uthman ordered all individual copies of suras and verses of the quran to be burned after differences between the recitations began to surface, and he sent for this copy from Hafsa which was redistributed and became the official Quran. i am not sure if this is the copy that is still in circulation today, but i think it is.
     
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  19. Dalzi

    Dalzi Well-Known Member

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    That's Sunnism and that's exactly why the accuse us of having a different copy. Imam Ali would've kept one safe, don't you think? ;)
     
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  20. Genius

    Genius Well-Known Member

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    If you want to withdraw, please fell free. I am just asking questions.

    What about the rest of my questions ...

    AL maidah 5:17 christians are Kuffar
    They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

    5:51 Jews and Christians are allies !! l ok ... ??
    O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

    Then how is it ok for a najsa, impure Kafra to carry a muslim baby .... and sleep with a muslim man. She is Kafra, impure.

    How would she feel when in her house it is recited that she is a Kafra and going to hellfire?
     

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