1982 Lebanese dream which became a deception

[My Moria Moon]

It's very easy to suggest political moves 4 decades later.

The Cairo agreement was in many ways forced on the Christians just like Taif agreement.

4 decades or 4 centuries, it doesn't really make much difference, mistakes this caliber are mistakes this caliber. Anyone who does not understand it's a fatal mistake allowing a fully armed foreign gang of revolutionists on own turf, and with total supremacy over their areas while your own army is not, is a super mega moron on an infinite magnitude. heck their cursed signatures almost lost us a country and many hundred thousand lives, and the consequences we're still living today.

And you can't compare the so called "pressure" the maronites back then, when they still were ruling kings, to the one they later had to endure after they were so completely done.

 

[Silence]

I hope you're not being nostalgic about the folkloric prime time of ancient nazl el sourour days when leftists, stalinists, bolsheviks, somali and libyan mercenaries together with Syrio-Palestinian sa3ika and the rest of the baathi inspired plethora were happily married with children.

I personally think Bachir is another warlord guy whose role became a natural reaction to the above and under the prevailing conditions then lived by the Christians. For them he represented the genuin dream -what you call silly illusion- they had about reclaiming back their country from the gathered forces of Dark (in)Vader.

In reality he was a late product of the Cairo agreement his father and the other Maronite dumbs signed under. Had he, and the older dumbs, been wiser, they'd have called at early stage, before the syrian invasion, for an own "taif" and made a political peace deal with their mulsim Lebanese partners.. bass yalla, may they all rest in peace.. and we too.

Yep good old days... you missed the trotskyists, the North Korean instructors, the gorgeous Dutch nurses with Keffieh and armpit hair and a taste for well built teenagers, the flirts during Makhoul Kasouf and Marcel Khalife concerts, the anti-virginity revolution, no phones or cellphones so you could tell the parents anything and get away with it, Bobby Sands and anti Vietnam war posters, Jethro Tull and Leo Ferre... it was a good era for teenage, how it should be boring for the actual generation.

So yeah, Bachir was just another warlord, a charismatic one but one belzeyed or one belna2es wouldn't really have changed the course of history, the proof is that he was "retired" when his size was over-inflated than plotted. No one was meant to prevail in our war and it is still the case now. His best case scenario was to become the Christian Berri, but wouldn't have anyways lasted as long.

 

[Impera]

4 decades or 4 centuries, it doesn't really make much difference, mistakes this caliber are mistakes this caliber. Anyone who does not understand it's a fatal mistake allowing a fully armed foreign gang of revolutionists on own turf, and with total supremacy over their areas while your own army is not, is a super mega moron on an infinite magnitude. heck their cursed signatures almost lost us a country and many hundred thousand lives, and the consequences we're still living today.

And you can't compare the so called "pressure" the maronites back then, when they still were ruling kings, to the one they later had to endure after they were so completely done.

I agree it's dumb mistake, I'm not saying otherwise. But had they not accept it, what would have happened? Same thing with the Taif agreement.

The Maronites were never the ruling kings, there was a reality on the ground that dictated the course of events along with the clever manipulation of international powers. You're making it seem as if the Maronites were the like the Czar of Russia or the monarchs of France.

 

[My Moria Moon]

Yep good old days... you missed the trotskyists, the North Korean instructors, the gorgeous Dutch nurses with Keffieh and armpit hair and a taste for well built teenagers, the flirts during Makhoul Kasouf and Marcel Khalife concerts, the anti-virginity revolution, no phones or cellphones so you could tell the parents anything and get away with it, Bobby Sands and anti Vietnam war posters, Jethro Tull and Leo Ferre... it was a good era for teenage, how it should be boring for the actual generation.

So yeah, Bachir was just another warlord, a charismatic one but one belzeyed or one belna2es wouldn't really have changed the course of history, the proof is that he was "retired" when his size was over-inflated than plotted. No one was meant to prevail in our war and it is still the case now. His best case scenario was to become the Christian Berri, but wouldn't have anyways lasted as long.

No, i did not forget them you mentioned, especially the Swedish and German nurses with kaffiyeh and armpit and also legs hair. . and neither 'Thick as a Brick' and 'Aqualung', 'Stair way to heaven' and 'Wish you were here'.. fat green joints, movies and teshfit w 3antariyet under the balconies of the cutest cutes..

 

[Impera]

Yep good old days... you missed the trotskyists, the North Korean instructors, the gorgeous Dutch nurses with Keffieh and armpit hair and a taste for well built teenagers, the flirts during Makhoul Kasouf and Marcel Khalife concerts, the anti-virginity revolution, no phones or cellphones so you could tell the parents anything and get away with it, Bobby Sands and anti Vietnam war posters, Jethro Tull and Leo Ferre... it was a good era for teenage, how it should be boring for the actual generation.

So yeah, Bachir was just another warlord, a charismatic one but one belzeyed or one belna2es wouldn't really have changed the course of history, the proof is that he was "retired" when his size was over-inflated than plotted. No one was meant to prevail in our war and it is still the case now. His best case scenario was to become the Christian Berri, but wouldn't have anyways lasted as long.

Maybe the war was meant to drag so all groups end up being annihilated but maybe not.

Don't forget that Bachir came to power in a project that was prepared to solve the Israeli-Arab conflict. Lebanon (after Egypt had done so) would declare peace with Israel and Jordan was waiting with bated breath.

 

[My Moria Moon]

I agree it's dumb mistake, I'm not saying otherwise. But had they not accept it, what would have happened? Same thing with the Taif agreement.

The Maronites were never the ruling kings, there was a reality on the ground that dictated the course of events along with the clever manipulation of international powers. You're making it seem as if the Maronites were the like the Czar of Russia or the monarchs of France.

What are you talking about, the Maronites, and only them, ruled Lebanon back then. Those who signed on Cairo Agreement were afraid of one thing: losing their own political privileges as they were threatned by political unrests orchestrated by their muslim counterparts. Wlak 7ameer, they traded this country's fate against keeping them privileges. bass tol3o, w talla3ouna, 3al khazouq, double up.

 

[Impera]

What are you talking about, the Maronites, and only them, ruled Lebanon back then. Those who signed on Cairo Agreement were afraid of one thing: losing their own political privileges as they were threatned by political unrests orchestrated by their muslim counterparts. Wlak 7ameer, they traded this country's fate against keeping them privileges. bass tol3o, w talla3ouna, 3al khazouq, double up.

Alright, what would be your alternative solution then? Propose another Taif? What would this proposal include? And if it was rejected by foreign powers what would you do?

 

[My Moria Moon]

Alright, what would be your alternative solution then? Propose another Taif? What would this proposal include? And if it was rejected by foreign powers what would you do?

I already wrote: They should have negotiated forward 'own orchestrated' political peace agreement with their muslim partners, that is an own made taif, before the Syrian invasion (because once the Syrian had come in they'd never allow for such a peaceful agreement).

 

[Impera]

I already wrote: They should have negotiated forward 'own orchestrated' political peace agreement with their muslim partners, that is an own made taif, before the Syrian invasion (because once the Syrian had come in they'd never allow for such a peaceful agreement).

Ma Syria has been intervening long before the Cairo agreement. Who tightened the grip on all Palesto factions in Syria and let them loose in Lebanon?

Not to mention that Lebanese Muslims weren't independent of choice at all. Sunnis wanted to control the state and we all know what Kamal Jumblatt wanted. That without mentioning US/French/Soviet meddling.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a mega-retarded decision to sign the Cairo agreement but I fail to see what was the alternative. The LAF and the PLO were already clashing and things were grim AFAIK.

 

[Silence]

@My Moria Moon , yes teshfit (Trans AM) and mega Hashish joints, although I was very happy to drive an old VW Beatle at 14.

@Impera , we tend to forget that in fact none of the leaders Left/right muslim/christians took Lebanon seriously as a country (except may be a tiny bit, Fouad Chehab, who dreamt of being a Lebanese Nasser-enlightened dictator).
Muslims were still in the Panarab illusion and Christians in Loubnan Al Kabir chimera that all the others were here to serve Mount-Lebanon Christian interests (including the christians of Akkar, Beqaa and South). No one had the real conviction of Lebanon as a definitive real country.
So we have to put the Cairo agreement in this perspective, and not to forget that they were all corrupted already but in a more discreet way.
They all used to think that US and France will help the Christians and Syria/PLO and Egypt are still working for Arab unity against Israel.
The importance of Bachir resides only in the fact that he was the first of his generation to go out of these illusions and look for alternatives (which were not the good ones either) may be Moussa Sadr too was also on this side of things.

 

[My Moria Moon]

Ma Syria has been intervening long before the Cairo agreement. Who tightened the grip on all Palesto factions in Syria and let them loose in Lebanon?

Not to mention that Lebanese Muslims weren't independent of choice at all. Sunnis wanted to control the state and we all know what Kamal Jumblatt wanted. That without mentioning US/French/Soviet meddling.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a mega-retarded decision to sign the Cairo agreement but I fail to see what was the alternative. The LAF and the PLO were already clashing and things were grim AFAIK.

I was referring to the the Syrian invasion 1976. Certainly, Syria was a 7arkoushe since long. The whole issue, and since at least 1958, was the muslims fair and righteous demands for political reforms. This was Lebanon's Achille's heel and which was used, and much abused, through various muslim political counterparts, by crook states that meddled into our business, like the Syrians (Abdel Nasser had his moments too..). The maronite elite knew that from 1945 start, and they let themselves keep being blackmailed on that specific issue under many decades.. But how could they dare let off their political privileges in exchange for internal peace? They kept wheeling and dealing over them privileges till they had none left.

 

[light-in-dark]

I don't get the point of this thread

This thread first is because of 14 of septembre the memory of a missed nation (maybe I'm right maybe not).


Second, if he reigned his 6 years you think things would be different?

He was a confessional and a militia man when he changed his speech and way have been executed by the both friends enemies (ISRAEL and SYRIA).

.

As we were thinking about people who passed away and resisted in face of any invader like Gen. François el Hajj, Gen. François el zein, like bassam .


People who marked Lebanon like M. Rafik Harir, like Bashir Gemayel, like president René Mouawad, like Fouad Shehab, like Maurice Gemayel, like Georges hawi, like gebran tueini, like Moufti Hassan Khaled should be remembered what happened with them to take lessons.


I know some people will hate this thread because of Bashir otheres will Love it also because Bashir.

Like Silence finds it Null.


Here it is an open thread to discuss the missed opportunities of having a strong nation which name is Lebanon. We want to take lessons. Now we have another generations young one that doesn't know anything what happened. This thread will light their curiosity too know more.

In Lebanon there is now new parties and new ideologies.

For me Takfiries is a new threat for Lebanon.

 

[Silence]

This thread first is because of 14 of septembre the memory of a missed nation (maybe I'm right maybe not).


Second, if he reigned his 6 years you think things would be different?

He was a confessional and a militia man when he changed his speech and way have been executed by the both friends enemies (ISRAEL and SYRIA).

.

As we were thinking about people who passed away and resisted in face of any invader like Gen. François el Hajj, Gen. François el zein, like bassam .


People who marked Lebanon like M. Rafik Harir, like Bashir Gemayel, like president René Mouawad, like Fouad Shehab, like Maurice Gemayel, like Georges hawi, like gebran tueini, like Moufti Hassan Khaled should be remembered what happened with them to take lessons.


I know some people will hate this thread because of Bashir otheres will Love it also because Bashir.

Like Silence finds it Null.


Here it is an open thread to discuss the missed opportunities of having a strong nation which name is Lebanon. We want to take lessons. Now we have another generations young one that doesn't know anything what happened. This thread will light their curiosity too know more.

In Lebanon there is now new parties and new ideologies.

For me Takfiries is a new threat for Lebanon.

I don't think the thread is Null, not at all, I am all for what you said about taking lessons. I just don't buy the Bachir legend and for me he was just another warlord, a very charismatic one like I said, but still I don't believe he would have done miracles. I am aware of the 33 days where he tried to change his speech and I don't think his assassination was a good thing for Lebanon. Had he reigned, we might have reached something like Taef earlier thus ending the "Hot" war earlier and may be ten of thousands of lives would have been spared or he would have just ended up reigning like Amin did or he would just have became an ultra Antoine Lahd if Sharon decided to stay occupying Lebanon.
It is obvious now that no one was allowed to win our war, it is a war that was not meant to be won. No "local" would have been able to do it, not Arafat, not Kamal Jumblat and not Bachir.

The militias became the ruling mafias and no savior will come out of this corruption, not Bachir, not Hariri, not Nasrallah and not Aoun.
The lesson I took is that we are the enemies of ourselves and that when many of us are convinced to work humbly and silently like ants against this system and the mentalities that support it we might one day stand a chance... and we won't if we keep believing that the ONLY threats we face are the external ones: the Palestos, the refugees, the takfiris, the israelis.
If we don't face our own deamons no Bachir will save us.

 

[light-in-dark]

Absolutely right, we can't change politics or international programs as in Syria like now. Let us work like ants and bees to have the minimum of Human beings Life criteria. After Bashir assassination, I don't believe anybody can make any modification, no human and mundane saviour as u said.


Even when hIrak madani became politicized, don't believe in them.

Killon ya3neh killon

But we still hoping all the time and we have to work for a better life in Lebanon. We will never stop hoping. Don't wish for it but work for it.

 

[Tayyar9]

This thread first is because of 14 of septembre the memory of a missed nation (maybe I'm right maybe not).


Second, if he reigned his 6 years you think things would be different?

He was a confessional and a militia man when he changed his speech and way have been executed by the both friends enemies (ISRAEL and SYRIA).

.

As we were thinking about people who passed away and resisted in face of any invader like Gen. François el Hajj, Gen. François el zein, like bassam .


People who marked Lebanon like M. Rafik Harir, like Bashir Gemayel, like president René Mouawad, like Fouad Shehab, like Maurice Gemayel, like Georges hawi, like gebran tueini, like Moufti Hassan Khaled should be remembered what happened with them to take lessons.


I know some people will hate this thread because of Bashir otheres will Love it also because Bashir.

Like Silence finds it Null.


Here it is an open thread to discuss the missed opportunities of having a strong nation which name is Lebanon. We want to take lessons. Now we have another generations young one that doesn't know anything what happened. This thread will light their curiosity too know more.

In Lebanon there is now new parties and new ideologies.

For me Takfiries is a new threat for Lebanon.

Actually I've always thought about this. Will Bachir Gemayel be as important and such a figure if he had stayed alive? What would he do in this era, or time?
Like you said, lots of people love Bachir and others hate him, and I would like to see how you guys think he would be seen today if he wouldn't have been killed. Because one thing is for sure, he was killed at the peak of his popularity

 

[light-in-dark]

Personally, I loved him. But after our experience, he would not be better than Saddam or 7soni moubarak a puppet in the hands of his masters.

 

[light-in-dark]

What about pure and honest people like Prsident Elias sarkis, no one tak about them coz they are rightous persons.
We need president honest like him but with strong personality and charisma (good one of course). No one till now illa Sam Sam l'héro cosmique. Baddo Jawaz yp2bor immo wa bayyo.

 

[light-in-dark]

 

[Manifesto]

You spend your day lecturing us about peace and unity, and scolding us for "akel khass" and then you go and post a thread glorifying a war criminal like Bachir? Are you freaking serious?

 

[Rafidi]

Glorifying local terrorism, violence against fellow Lebanese and a sectarian warlord, who was the face of fascism in Lebanon and who killed his countrymen based on ID out of hate.