2019 Coronavirus Disease "COVID-19" [10,000,000 Confirmed Cases Worldwide]

CitizenOfTheRepublic

CitizenOfTheRepublic

Legendary Member
Is this about Gohmert? You may appreciate how his own staff found out about the diagnosis and what they had to say.

Another Trump lackey who thought the way to handle a virus is by doing some political spinning. I love how Trump encourages all these people not to wear a mask and re-open as if nothing happened while everyone that sets foot in the white house is tested up the yin-yan.

But nope, the botched pandemic response is anything but Trump's fault. The president ma khasso, I am just another hater 🤪
 
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  • HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Another Trump lackey who thought the way to handle a virus is by doing some political spinning. I love how Trump encourages all these people not to wear a mask and re-open as if nothing happened while everyone that sets foot in the white house is tested up the yin-yan.

    But nope, the botched pandemic response is anything but Trump's fault. The president ma khasso, I am just another hater 🤪
    No one hates donald trump's base more than donald trump and Republican leaders. Just openly and blatantly contemptuous towards them. A thousand times more than any of us coastal elites will ever be.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Very straight forward question without redoing the whole story

    Which of the following statements do you think is true?
    1 - Hydroxychloroquine is proven to work
    2 - Hydroxychloroquine is not yet proven to work


    I know it is your job to understand that "Hydroxychloroquine is not yet proven to work" does not in anyway mean "Hydroxychloroquine does not work" yet you are debating as if "Hydroxychloroquine is not yet proven to work" means "Hydroxychloroquine does not work".

    As for the general consensus:
    • Les conseils scientifiques des états membres et de l'union européenne have not claimed it works yet.
    • In the US Dr. Fauci and his team distanced themselves from the claims confirming it (which are the equivalent of the conseil scientifiques).
    • China initial studies made them not use it.
    So for me that is the definition of the "general consensus" as these are the experts nationwide tasked with giving their opinions.

    They are making a bold claim ...maybe in your opinion but i elected to believe first world medical teams in charge of dictating the response.
    No, let's believe Abou Sandal and Viral/NewLeb.

    Personally, I'm glad people are realizing what a hack the David Duke lover Abou Sandal is.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    No one hates donald trump's base more than donald trump and Republican leaders. Just openly and blatantly contemptuous towards them. A thousand times more than any of us coastal elites will ever be.
    Just ask Moscow "McTurtle" Mitch how many billions of dollars he made moving truckloads of opioids throughout Kentucky.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    @Abou Sandal Hydroxychloroquine has failed to prove its efficacy in a number of randomized controlled trials which is considered the gold standard in terms of determining worthiness of any treatment. RCTs allow as much of an isolation as possible of the treatment's effect vs. surrounding environmental factors. Most of the studies you refer too, such as the one from Michigan in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases, are retrospective studies which are neither randomized nor controlled. Here is an exert from a review of the study in question: “The Detroit study [...] has very poor methodology—completely observational, meaning that the choice to give hydroxychloroquine was probably also linked to other factors that explain the benefit,” says Bob Wachter, chair of the department of medicine at UC San Francisco. RCT studies published in NEJM and the lancet from Brazil, the US, Europe and others are not showing any benefit.

    That said, personally I would love if it is the miracle cure some tout it is, unfortunately, I don't see enough proof it is after now more than 7 months of this shit. Moreover, it is a dangerous drug to use. It's not exactly a panadol where I would have said: go nuts with it all you want.

    What my problem is with this whole HDX is not its efficacy or not, it is that completely unqualified individuals such as Bolosonaro, Trump, Navarro or even urologists with no background in virology/epidemiology are making these outlandish claims. Politicians should stay out of deciding whether a drug is good or not and should spend their time on managing public health based on sound and proven models. I would love if the two idiots promoting hydroxychloroquine would spend their time bringing down the number of infections rather than playing doctor. They couldn't get into medical school for a reason.
    Quite inaccurate. HCQ+AZ treatment has been proven to be efficient with substantial results. Not a single serious study proved otherwise and all medical institutions and center who administered this treatment on their patients, provided clear data to prove that. Detractors of the treatment have never been able to provide other than claims, empty talk and sometimes fake studies if not forged ones. The studies published in NEJM and the lancet are of that caliber and were refuted and denounced widely enough for that matter.

    As for medical institutions bringing forward numbers, they were never in the course of conducting studies, in order for them to make RCT, but rather in the course of providing treatment. And as such, and seeing that the treatment was working, it was unthinkable and unethical for them to make RCTs, knowing that lives are at risk.

    And so their numbers and results were criticized at first, because they could not be considered in conformity with protocols in studies, despite the fact that they never claimed to make studies, to start with.

    But then later, and with the thousands of treated patients later, and among them many who decided by themselves not to opt for the treatment, a de-facto situation was created in which, these groups became a statistically acceptable comparative groups and therefore technically an admissible RCT sample.

    At which point numbers started talking so loudly that they could hardly be silenced.

    And so far, not a single institution or Doctor who has effectively administered this treatment to his hundreds or thousands of patients, would tell you anything other than this treatment works, and works significantly well. From France to Portugal to New-York to China to Saida and Beirut...All practicians who treated their patients with this combi are unanimous.

    And no one is saying that this is a miraculous treatment. This in fact, is only the best available treatment known to us so far. Again, well proven by REAL numbers of REAL treated patients.

    Numbers that cannot be ignored by simple rhetorics and other theories.

    When HCQ+AZ treated patients who die, are times and times less than who followed other treatments, no one can ignore such numbers and results, no matter the twist one could bring to it.

    The problem with some detractors, is that they hate the likes of Trump and Bolsonaro so much, that anything these guys say, must be deconstructed and proven false at all cost.

    Most of ordinary people in this trend, are simply manipulated by media, fake scientists, big Pharma and other politicians, who are just pawns in the hand of the establishment that has a grip on most official Worldwide bodies and organizations like WHO and most Western affiliated official health comities and organizations.

    But hey...people are free to believe whatever they want. At the end of the day, we live in a World where many would happily jump off a cliff, when subjected to a well thought narrative.

    So it’s only normal that there could be many who refuse to acknowledge a good treatment, as long as those in control of their minds and thoughts, didn’t clearly give them a green light.

    As long as they’re happy, then I guess that no harm in that, provided they do not prevent others from practicing their own free will and choice of doing otherwise.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    No, let's believe Abou Sandal and Viral/NewLeb.

    Personally, I'm glad people are realizing what a hack the David Duke lover Abou Sandal is.
    You being an Israeli Hasbara troll, shouldn’t lead you to forget that you’re a troll, first and foremost. It’s in the title, after all.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You being an Israeli Hasbara troll, shouldn’t lead you to forget that you’re a troll, first and foremost. It’s in the title, after all.
    @AtheistForYeezus 2oltillak tkhafsh.

    You owe me a bonjisi.
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    Quite inaccurate. HCQ+AZ treatment has been proven to be efficient with substantial results. Not a single serious study proved otherwise and all medical institutions and center who administered this treatment on their patients, provided clear data to prove that. Detractors of the treatment have never been able to provide other than claims, empty talk and sometimes fake studies if not forged ones. The studies published in NEJM and the lancet are of that caliber and were refuted and denounced widely enough for that matter.

    As for medical institutions bringing forward numbers, they were never in the course of conducting studies, in order for them to make RCT, but rather in the course of providing treatment. And as such, and seeing that the treatment was working, it was unthinkable and unethical for them to make RCTs, knowing that lives are at risk.

    And so their numbers and results were criticized at first, because they could not be considered in conformity with protocols in studies, despite the fact that they never claimed to make studies, to start with.

    But then later, and with the thousands of treated patients later, and among them many who decided by themselves not to opt for the treatment, a de-facto situation was created in which, these groups became a statistically acceptable comparative groups and therefore technically an admissible RCT sample.

    At which point numbers started talking so loudly that they could hardly be silenced.

    And so far, not a single institution or Doctor who has effectively administered this treatment to his hundreds or thousands of patients, would tell you anything other than this treatment works, and works significantly well. From France to Portugal to New-York to China to Saida and Beirut...All practicians who treated their patients with this combi are unanimous.

    And no one is saying that this is a miraculous treatment. This in fact, is only the best available treatment known to us so far. Again, well proven by REAL numbers of REAL treated patients.

    Numbers that cannot be ignored by simple rhetorics and other theories.

    When HCQ+AZ treated patients who die, are times and times less than who followed other treatments, no one can ignore such numbers and results, no matter the twist one could bring to it.

    The problem with some detractors, is that they hate the likes of Trump and Bolsonaro so much, that anything these guys say, must be deconstructed and proven false at all cost.

    Most of ordinary people in this trend, are simply manipulated by media, fake scientists, big Pharma and other politicians, who are just pawns in the hand of the establishment that has a grip on most official Worldwide bodies and organizations like WHO and most Western affiliated official health comities and organizations.

    But hey...people are free to believe whatever they want. At the end of the day, we live in a World where many would happily jump off a cliff, when subjected to a well thought narrative.

    So it’s only normal that there could be many who refuse to acknowledge a good treatment, as long as those in control of their minds and thoughts, didn’t clearly give them a green light.

    As long as they’re happy, then I guess that no harm in that, provided they do not prevent others from practicing their own free will and choice of doing otherwise.
    Trump’s and Bolsonaro’s job is neither to pick which drugs are good nor to advertise the one they prefer. Their job is to properly manage a pandemic by bringing down infections and ensuring doctors and health experts have the equipment and drugs they themselves deem necessary. That’s how countries like Germany and South Korea controlled the pandemic, it’s not rocket science.

    That said, with regards to HCQ+AZ, sorry man but without enough solid RCTs showing positive effects it remains in the eye of the medical community just speculative. One would think with all the clout of the federal government and with the millions of Trump supporters across the US there are at least a few capable of conducting enough trials in the past 7 months to get it through the finish line. Alas there aren’t nearly enough positive RCTs (if any) it therefore remains speculative. So Trump is just playing drug roulette with the health of his constituents. That’s nothing new in this pandemic.
     
    TayyarBeino

    TayyarBeino

    Legendary Member




















































































































































































































































































































































































    # Country,
    Other
    Total
    Cases
    New
    Cases
    Total
    Deaths
    New
    Deaths
    Total
    Recovered
    Active
    Cases
    Serious,
    Critical
    Tot Cases/
    1M pop
    Deaths/
    1M pop
    Total
    Tests
    Tests/
    1M pop
    Population
    -- World 17,463,303 +287,146 675,967 +6,426 10,931,675 5,855,661 66,380 2,240 86.7
    1 USA 4,634,985 +68,569 155,285 +1,465 2,284,965 2,194,735 18,783 13,996 469 57,521,144 173,695 331,161,077
    2 Brazil 2,613,789 +58,271 91,377 +1,189 1,824,095 698,317 8,318 12,290 430 12,601,096 59,249 212,681,838
    3 India 1,639,350 +54,966 35,786 +783 1,059,093 544,471 8,944 1,187 26 18,190,382 13,171 1,381,085,714
    4 Russia 834,499 +5,509 13,802 +129 629,655 191,042 2,300 5,718 95 27,569,646 188,911 145,939,731
    5 South Africa 482,169 +11,046 7,812 +315 309,601 164,756 539 8,122 132 2,918,049 49,152 59,367,266
    6 Mexico 408,449 +5,752 45,361 +485 267,147 95,941 3,922 3,165 352 953,514 7,389 129,040,268
    7 Peru 407,492 +6,809 19,021 +205 283,915 104,556 1,421 12,345 576 2,318,254 70,234 33,007,532
    8 Chile 353,536 +1,961 9,377 +99 326,628 17,531 1,529 18,481 490 1,601,118 83,699 19,129,379
    9 Spain 332,510 +2,789 28,443 +2 N/A N/A 617 7,112 608 6,678,414 142,835 46,756,303
    10 UK 302,301 +846 45,999 +38 N/A N/A 87 4,451 677 15,738,735 231,741 67,915,222
    11 Iran 301,530 +2,621 16,569 +226 261,200 23,761 4,041 3,586 197 2,431,804 28,924 84,077,062
    12 Colombia 286,020 +9,965 9,810 +356 148,695 127,515 1,493 5,616 193 1,537,689 30,195 50,925,896
    13 Pakistan 277,402 +1,114 5,924 +32 246,131 25,347 1,179 1,254 27 1,952,730 8,827 221,213,683
    14 Saudi Arabia 274,219 +1,629 2,842 +26 231,198 40,179 2,044 7,867 82 3,289,692 94,381 34,855,542
    15 Italy 247,158 +382 35,132 +3 199,796 12,230 47 4,088 581 6,752,169 111,691 60,454,261
    16 Bangladesh 234,889 +2,695 3,083 +48 132,960 98,846 1 1,425 19 1,164,195 7,063 164,820,045
    17 Turkey 229,891 +967 5,674 +15 213,539 10,678 1,280 2,723 67 4,754,331 56,324 84,410,984
    18 Germany 209,653 +842 9,221 +9 192,000 8,432 261 2,502 110 8,006,135 95,532 83,806,150
    19 France 186,573 +1,377 30,254 +16 81,500 74,819 380 2,858 463 2,982,302 45,681 65,285,551
    20 Argentina 185,373 +6,377 3,441 +153 80,596 101,336 1,002 4,099 76 690,823 15,274 45,228,960
    21 Iraq 121,263 +2,963 4,671 +68 85,546 31,046 446 3,010 116 983,335 24,407 40,288,721

    a
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    Member
    From the link above, the final study was clear that:

    "... early diagnosis, early isolation and early treatment of COVID-19 patients, with at least 3 days of HCQ-AZ lead to a significantly better clinical outcome and a faster viral load reduction than other treatments."

    This treatment was also applied in the Henry Ford Health System (HFHS) in Southeast Michigan, with same clear and conclusive results:

    That's what I'm saying, the WHO's experiments is based off on late stage diagnosis and treatment, which is where they got it wrong
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That said, with regards to HCQ+AZ, sorry man but without enough solid RCTs showing positive effects it remains in the eye of the medical community just speculative.
    I think you missed my point. That argument could have been valid at the beginning. But today, with the thousands of patients treated and thousand others not treated, within the same medical institutions, numbers provide us with more randomized control groups than needed to get to the right conclusions. Which medical institutions and doctors treating REAL patient are now confidently making. Those who are set on denying from the start, need now to find other reasons than mere cosmetic technicalities, because such pretexts are now outdated, and using them only points to an unjustified unwillingness to acknowledge reality.

    As for constantly bringing in Trump and his policies or opinions or style into such discussions, or character assassinating anyone who dares to say that the treatment works and is indeed much effective, this only proves the lack of argument within the detractors of that treatment.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That's what I'm saying, the WHO's experiments is based off on late stage diagnosis and treatment, which is where they got it wrong
    Exactly. Like others too, who fraudulently pick from databases, lists of cases in an arbitrary way to conveniently build an argument, and then propose it as a "study", while the minimum that one could call such papers, is forgery.
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    I think you missed my point. That argument could have been valid at the beginning. But today, with the thousands of patients treated and thousand others not treated, within the same medical institutions, numbers provide us with more randomized control groups than needed to get to the right conclusions. Which medical institutions and doctors treating REAL patient are now confidently making. Those who are set on denying from the start, need now to find other reasons than mere cosmetic technicalities, because such pretexts are now outdated, and using them only points to an unjustified unwillingness to acknowledge reality.
    RCT is not a technicality and it’s the same yardstick used to evaluate all treatments not just COVID. The common use of HCQ+AZ provides a retrospective view which is incomplete and has a lot of environmental noise and is therefore considered speculative. This is the standard way all such treatments are viewed if only retrospective is available, it’s not a COVID unique case. The simple reason is that without RCTs one has tremendous difficulty to isolate the effect of the treatment from other factors namely the patient him/herself, progression of disease, surrounding environment etc. The failure of RCTs to produce any positive results in spite of the positive retro view puts the treatment even further into doubt.
    As for constantly bringing in Trump and his policies or opinions or style into such discussions, or character assassinating anyone who dares to say that the treatment works and is indeed much effective, this only proves the lack of argument within the detractors of that treatment.
    Trump endorsing the HCQ-AZ even though it is very much in doubt is my only point on this whole issue. It’s still speculative so he should not play Russian roulette with peoples health. His attention should be on much higher priority items, like maybe masks...?

    I really hope it proves to be an effective treatment, wlek any treatment to be successful for that matter is a huge win for everyone. Not sure you saw the data on fatomidine, it’s even more positive than HCQ, but it is also speculative so still waiting for more proof.

    in all case, stay safe. Shit seems to have hit the fan in Lebanon.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    RCT is not a technicality and it’s the same yardstick used to evaluate all treatments not just COVID. The common use of HCQ+AZ provides a retrospective view which is incomplete and has a lot of environmental noise and is therefore considered speculative. This is the standard way all such treatments are viewed if only retrospective is available, it’s not a COVID unique case. The simple reason is that without RCTs one has tremendous difficulty to isolate the effect of the treatment from other factors namely the patient him/herself, progression of disease, surrounding environment etc. The failure of RCTs to produce any positive results in spite of the positive retro view puts the treatment even further into doubt.
    That’s the third time that I’m telling you that in the medical institutions numbers published recently, we now have the randomized control group( which was naturally not existent at the beginning) and hence that any argument about lack of RCT has no more value, no matter how much you value it. And we’re talking about numbers in the thousands. If that’s statistically not enough for the skeptics, then nothing will ever be.


    Trump endorsing the HCQ-AZ even though it is very much in doubt is my only point on this whole issue. It’s still speculative so he should not play Russian roulette with peoples health. His attention should be on much higher priority items, like maybe masks...?
    No matter Trump’s behavior in any other field or on any other level, him endorsing the HCQ+AZ is not a reason to discredit and attack the treatment itself. Which is what most of the treatment detractors are doing. And which is why the treatment is being discredited on weak, false or forged grounds. Never seen so much fake articles, false pretenses and forged studies directed against any single treatment of any kind...And the bad faith and viciousness is unbelievable...Too many just to spite Trump.


    I really hope it proves to be an effective treatment, wlek any treatment to be successful for that matter is a huge win for everyone. Not sure you saw the data on fatomidine, it’s even more positive than HCQ, but it is also speculative so still waiting for more proof.

    in all case, stay safe. Shit seems to have hit the fan in Lebanon.
    It is effective and it is proven effective. You will not get more proofs than anything that already exists today. It is not perfect, but it is the best there is today.

    And you cannot expect that any of the actual detractors, whether they are public or private Parties, to ever recognize the efficiency of the treatment. Likewise there will be no public nor legal endorsement for it, and this, for as long as it is effective and needed. Don’t wait for either WHO or CDC or other health institutions to tell you that it is fine....It is of course, but they will fight it and put it in doubt...Yeah we live in that World now.
     
    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    CitizenOfTheRepublic

    Legendary Member
    That’s the third time that I’m telling you that in the medical institutions numbers published recently, we now have the randomized control group( which was naturally not existent at the beginning) and hence that any argument about lack of RCT has no more value, no matter how much you value it. And we’re talking about numbers in the thousands. If that’s statistically not enough for the skeptics, then nothing will ever be.

    No matter Trump’s behavior in any other field or on any other level, him endorsing the HCQ+AZ is not a reason to discredit and attack the treatment itself. Which is what most of the treatment detractors are doing. And which is why the treatment is being discredited on weak, false or forged grounds. Never seen so much fake articles, false pretenses and forged studies directed against any single treatment of any kind...And the bad faith and viciousness is unbelievable...Too many just to spite Trump.

    It is effective and it is proven effective. You will not get more proofs than anything that already exists today. It is not perfect, but it is the best there is today.

    And you cannot expect that any of the actual detractors, whether they are public or private Parties, to ever recognize the efficiency of the treatment. Likewise there will be no public nor legal endorsement for it, and this, for as long as it is effective and needed. Don’t wait for either WHO or CDC or other health institutions to tell you that it is fine....It is of course, but they will fight it and put it in doubt...Yeah we live in that World now.
    We're running in circles here so let's agree to disagree and call it a day.

    Here are the points of disagreement:
    We disagree on the need for RCT. My point is that the medical institution numbers do not constitute a randomized controlled trial. They provide retrospective data large enough for statistical significance with one huge problem: they do not clearly isolate treatment efficacy from other factors hence the need for randomization and control. Moreover RCTs run to date disprove efficacy of treatment. My opinion happens to be the majority opinion of the medical community in more than one country. On the other hand, you seem to think the medical institution data constitutes a randomized controlled group which is sufficient and you think the medical community in disingenuous and politicized in its assessment.

    Based on our respective RCT view we disagree on whether there is proof of treatment efficiency. You think it's enough, I think it's nowhere near enough.

    Another point of disagreement is the stifling of research: You think the whole world is stifling the efficacy to spite Trump and/or for Pharma's financial gain. I find it very hard to believe that with half the US being staunchly pro-Trump (without mentioning Bolosnaro and other clowns), with the clout of the US federal government and with everyone in the world reeling from the pandemic and clutching for straws one is remotely able to stifle any effective treatment.

    Where we agree is that Trump's stupid behavior is not the basis for assessing HCQ+AZ.

    Feel free to add.
     
    Manifesto

    Manifesto

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    182 diarrhea cases reported today. Alla yestour.
     
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