2022 the year of Partition or Deep Federalism

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
Lebanon as country was made out of the marriage of Jabal Loubnan and the districts that were taken from Wilayat al Sham. This Lebanon is in the last phase of dying. Actually it is medically clinically dead, but awaiting someone to pull of the plug.

This forced marriage that was vehemently resisted by the muslim, shiite and sunnite, led to desaster after desaster: the 1958 revolution, the catastrophic civil war in 1975, the Taef agreement and the modification of the Lebanon constitution in favor of the muslim, the failure of the muslim to govern Lebanon leading to a sunni shia struggle, leading to the shia establishing their own Imarat inside the so called Lebanon, having Jabal 3amel and Bekaa taking control politically over the rest of the so called Lebanon.

It is time to start separating officially what is already separated in the people mind.

This post is to have a debate and brainstorming with the goal to foster awareness and to drive the establishment of secret or public groups working for the goal of partitioning Lebanon officially

From a selfish point a view being Christian, I invite all Christian on this group to start thinking of the
1) What form will the Christian part/geography be composed of
2) How to get there
3) How will the Christian part be interworking with the other parts

PS: I urge all Christian for once in their history not to turn this into an internal fight, which has always through their history plagued their struggle. Try to argue on the What and the How and remember, time is for unity on those topics. Do not do the mistakes that has been done by current and previous Christian leader.
 

Lebnaouneh

Legendary Member
Lebanon as country was made out of the marriage of Jabal Loubnan and the districts that were taken from Wilayat al Sham. This Lebanon is in the last phase of dying. Actually it is medically clinically dead, but awaiting someone to pull of the plug.

This forced marriage that was vehemently resisted by the muslim, shiite and sunnite, led to desaster after desaster: the 1958 revolution, the catastrophic civil war in 1975, the Taef agreement and the modification of the Lebanon constitution in favor of the muslim, the failure of the muslim to govern Lebanon leading to a sunni shia struggle, leading to the shia establishing their own Imarat inside the so called Lebanon, having Jabal 3amel and Bekaa taking control politically over the rest of the so called Lebanon.

It is time to start separating officially what is already separated in the people mind.

This post is to have a debate and brainstorming with the goal to foster awareness and to drive the establishment of secret or public groups working for the goal of partitioning Lebanon officially

From a selfish point a view being Christian, I invite all Christian on this group to start thinking of the
1) What form will the Christian part/geography be composed of
2) How to get there
3) How will the Christian part be interworking with the other parts

PS: I urge all Christian for once in their history not to turn this into an internal fight, which has always through their history plagued their struggle. Try to argue on the What and the How and remember, time is for unity on those topics. Do not do the mistakes that has been done by current and previous Christian leader.
It is not up to us, countries will decide for us what geography, if any, that we will have
So far, none has showed any interest to give christians anything
If anything, with the powers insisting on naturalizing syrians and palestinians, it seems they want us to leave
 

Apostate

Your will, my hands.
Orange Room Supporter
Changing systems and redrawing borders always happen after long wars or total collapse, or both... but in all cases such redesign is almost always sponsored by regional or international powers to put things in place.
If there is a plan for us (lebanese) to get a partition, some sort of a new system, or whatever... it will fall in place from outside.

I'm not a christian, but I'm in favor of whatever sort of partition or federalism or whatever system that allows us to part ways and live in a peaceful manner. We're too culturally different, different allegiances (or lack of) to be able to live together - and I'm not in favor of war for any reason.
So a partition would be actually nice, let those who want to die for Iran do it as they please in their newly formed state... those who want to be KSA's gholman do it in their newly formed state... and us others can actually have a functional state.

Lubnan Al Kabir was a terrible mistake.
 

Savo

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
The idea that u can socially reconcile 2 deeply distict religions under One inique system that for decades were in conflict Is a pure utopia .
And im here not talking about history But the Essence of both societies.
Islam and Christianity have deeply different systems of values when It comes to religious laws and social organization .
Same happened in the past between christians and jews .
When the world voted on the Universal declaration of human rights ; muslim asked and implemented a muslim declaration of human rights.
When the Christian religion Finally accepted the separation between Faith and politics and implied It under certain degree ; Islam Say that It Is religion of Life and politics ( din w donya if i am not mispelling ) .
When the Christian society have faced political and philosophical/ ideological transformation from the middle ages till today .. Islamic philosophy stopped and now we have ideologis like wahhabism ; salafism and khomeinism .

While Christianity replaced an existing roman state with its culture and structure ; Islam revolutionized and unite tribes to form its own state .

The difference in the timeline between Christianity and Islam Is around 650 Years ..
Maybe muslim thinking and philosophy Will Need lesser time to mature and be able to bring some modernity to their thinking.. But they Need to liberate themselves from the colonized menthality and settle the issue of the sionist colonialism in palestine ..so i Guess It Is a slow process of change ..

Based on all that analysis ; i think that some form of leftist federalismo could be the right choice.
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
Lebanon as country was made out of the marriage of Jabal Loubnan and the districts that were taken from Wilayat al Sham. This Lebanon is in the last phase of dying. Actually it is medically clinically dead, but awaiting someone to pull of the plug.

This forced marriage that was vehemently resisted by the muslim, shiite and sunnite, led to desaster after desaster: the 1958 revolution, the catastrophic civil war in 1975, the Taef agreement and the modification of the Lebanon constitution in favor of the muslim, the failure of the muslim to govern Lebanon leading to a sunni shia struggle, leading to the shia establishing their own Imarat inside the so called Lebanon, having Jabal 3amel and Bekaa taking control politically over the rest of the so called Lebanon.

It is time to start separating officially what is already separated in the people mind.

This post is to have a debate and brainstorming with the goal to foster awareness and to drive the establishment of secret or public groups working for the goal of partitioning Lebanon officially

From a selfish point a view being Christian, I invite all Christian on this group to start thinking of the
1) What form will the Christian part/geography be composed of
2) How to get there
3) How will the Christian part be interworking with the other parts

PS: I urge all Christian for once in their history not to turn this into an internal fight, which has always through their history plagued their struggle. Try to argue on the What and the How and remember, time is for unity on those topics. Do not do the mistakes that has been done by current and previous Christian leader.

Good post and thank you for opening the discussion.

The christians are still a force to be reckoned with and especially in the areas which they still form a majority. From Bcharre Koura Zgharta Batroun Jbeil Keserwen Metn East Beirut Jezzine and Zahle. We are large minorities in Chouf Aley Akkar Baalbeck and other districts.

1) The geography that should be formed is the districts which we are a majority in. The minorities in other districts should be given special status or they move to the majority districts.

2) The christians have a dialogue between themselves under ALL the churches together that our greater Lebanon is gone and that we aren’t able to live the way we are living. We openly unite and say we want to part ways. We don’t want this Lebanon and we start implementing our Lebanon.

i) We have a united stance NOT to pay taxes to the central gov and the state will collapse by itself. Public workers will be forced to resign from the state as there is no cash to pay for them. 70% of public workers are from the muslim sects. 70% of the taxes of the state are paid by christians.

ii) We have the Church to sell of its assets in the districts which they are a minority. Schools, Hospitals etc and buy up in the mostly
christian districts. We shouldn’t be paying the price of a school which 99% of its students are from the muslims as in the South.

3) Our majority areas are very close with one another as in geographically. very easy to implement some sort of federalism. Each district has its own mini government with wide powers and we have a Parliament, Senate, and President for our huge canton which will absorb more than 2 million people. Each district depending on the % it pays to the state will get its fair share of services in return.

You can go on and on about the State but we need a first step. Are the christian parties up to it?
 

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
It is not up to us, countries will decide for us what geography, if any, that we will have
So far, none has showed any interest to give christians anything
If anything, with the powers insisting on naturalizing syrians and palestinians, it seems they want us to leave

True it will the outside powerful nations that will decide on a partition and the potential shape of Geography like with the Moutassarifiya and the Lebanon of 1920. The groups of people themselves, will have on the other hand the possibility to influence the details of how the final shape will be. It will be up to the power of group lobbyism to decide where e.g. Jezzine, Zahle etc.. will end up in any negotiations.
Hence it is of outmost importance that the Christian shape a UNIFIED vision (not to repeat the mistakes of 1920 where 4 groups of maronites were fighting and contradicting each other) of the Lebanon they will get. In addition to the UNIFIED vision, they need to shape the strategy of how to reach it.

Naturalization of Palestinians could be done in a zero impact manner to the new Lebanon if the Palestinians are naturalized in the part outside of the new Lebanon like the South of Lebanon. Same for the Syrians, if they are naturalized in the Bekaa and the Bekaa is outside of the new Lebanon this will have no impact on the Christians in the new Lebanon
 

Resistancefrom89

Well-Known Member
Good post and thank you for opening the discussion.

The christians are still a force to be reckoned with and especially in the areas which they still form a majority. From Bcharre Koura Zgharta Batroun Jbeil Keserwen Metn East Beirut Jezzine and Zahle. We are large minorities in Chouf Aley Akkar Baalbeck and other districts.

1) The geography that should be formed is the districts which we are a majority in. The minorities in other districts should be given special status or they move to the majority districts.

2) The christians have a dialogue between themselves under ALL the churches together that our greater Lebanon is gone and that we aren’t able to live the way we are living. We openly unite and say we want to part ways. We don’t want this Lebanon and we start implementing our Lebanon.

i) We have a united stance NOT to pay taxes to the central gov and the state will collapse by itself. Public workers will be forced to resign from the state as there is no cash to pay for them. 70% of public workers are from the muslim sects. 70% of the taxes of the state are paid by christians.

ii) We have the Church to sell of its assets in the districts which they are a minority. Schools, Hospitals etc and buy up in the mostly
christian districts. We shouldn’t be paying the price of a school which 99% of its students are from the muslims as in the South.

3) Our majority areas are very close with one another as in geographically. very easy to implement some sort of federalism. Each district has its own mini government with wide powers and we have a Parliament, Senate, and President for our huge canton which will absorb more than 2 million people. Each district depending on the % it pays to the state will get its fair share of services in return.

You can go on and on about the State but we need a first step. Are the christian parties up to it?

thanks for the exhaustive proposal :)

1) Your last point "Are the Christian parties up to it" a very important one. We should challenge all Christian parties (LF, FPM, Kataeb, Marada, etc..) to have as a main point in their electoral program for 2022 the creation of a separate Lebanon. Any electoral 2022 program which ambition is to repair the old Lebanon is suicide.

2) Will this new Lebanon include the Chouf? your proposal in point 3 can appease the Druze as they get a form of a district they govern part of a federation. Are the Druze up to be part of such a Lebanon togethe with the Christian?

3) What will be the status of the administrative Beirut?

4) What about Dahye? A Million shiite lieve there and it is in the middle. If the Shia get the South (as they had before 1920) and the Bekaa. What to do with Dahye

5) What will the Sunni get?

6) Can the creation of such a new Lebanon be done peacefully?
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
thanks for the exhaustive proposal :)

1) Your last point "Are the Christian parties up to it" a very important one. We should challenge all Christian parties (LF, FPM, Kataeb, Marada, etc..) to have as a main point in their electoral program for 2022 the creation of a separate Lebanon. Any electoral 2022 program which ambition is to repair the old Lebanon is suicide.

2) Will this new Lebanon include the Chouf? your proposal in point 3 can appease the Druze as they get a form of a district they govern part of a federation. Are the Druze up to be part of such a Lebanon togethe with the Christian?

3) What will be the status of the administrative Beirut?

4) What about Dahye? A Million shiite lieve there and it is in the middle. If the Shia get the South (as they had before 1920) and the Bekaa. What to do with Dahye

5) What will the Sunni get?

6) Can the creation of such a new Lebanon be done peacefully?

1) Get the christian parties to unite under one banner and go for elections. Win 60 MPs or so and I am all for it. No issue at all.

2) Chouf and Aley will be in this new Lebanon and I am sure that the Druze more than happy to have some sort of federalism and some independence. This new Lebanon will be like 75% christian if not more with 20% druze and 5% muslims.

3) Beirut cut into 3. East Beirut for us. West sunni and Dahiye for Shia. Greater Beirut currently demographically is 50/50 muslim christian.

4) Dahiye. The shia that live there and mostly from the South or the Bekaa. Dont know if 1 million live there as there are some districts like Hadath which is majority christian. Excluding the Palos that live there there is approx 500K population with about 10% being christian. As point 3 they can have it. We cut their part and our part of Baabda district belongs to us.

5) Sunni get West Beirut Tripoli Akkar Saida West Bekaa.

6) This is a good point. If the christians unite and push for this it could be done peacefully. Don’t pay taxes to the state. Sell the schools and land which are not in predominant christian areas and buy in our areas.

We are forgetting that the muslims are also getting out of the country. our fathers generation the muslims used to have high birth rates now the birth rates have lowered. On average it is 2.1 children per woman. An example is that in Europe those who were registered are half muslim. A non stable Lebanon is impacting all of us not one sect not one religion.

In the last election those who voted the christians were close to 40% in numbers. Those in 2022 the numbers were stable. We are not the christians of Egypt Jordan or Syria. The strength of the shia is due to them being allied. Them being together and not letting anyone affect their brotherhood is the reason for their strength not anything else.
 

NewLeb

Active Member
“Sunni” “Shiite” and “Christian” are human identities, and as long as laymen continue to define themselves solely by their respective identities, humanity will not advance.

This is why the Shiites are going to be as successful as the Sunnis or Christians were in ruling Lebanon.

There needs to be a movement whereby the aforementioned identities are gradually disposed of. This means the destruction of Christian, Sunni, and Shiite thought institutions.

In order to make Phoenicia 2.0 a reality, an entirely new system of thinking and identity must be realized, one that can be shared by all geographical quarters of Lebanon.
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
1) What form will the Christian part/geography be composed of
Zgharta,Koura,Bshary,Batroun,Jbel,Kesrwen,Matn,B3abda,Zahly,East Beirut + parts of Beka3 that are connected directly to Christian areas like Der l Ahmar thru cedars beka3 road. If the Druze agree to join the Christian federal state - Chouf/Aley will have their own independent administrative status- the federal state can be extended up to Jezzin including Chouf/Aley.
Dahyeh will be part of the Shiite federal state even if geographically separated from Beka3 and South.

2) How to get there
1) Christians unity under Bkerki Umbrella and declaration from Bkerky by all christian leaders/parties/associations....etc that the Greater Lebanon is finished and a new Federal Lebanon is to be born out of the ashes.

2) Lobbying with the super powers gov. to advocate the federal state and show its benefit for the super powers; for example:
a) Palestos can be naturalized in their current camps locations without big noise,
b) Syrian refugees can stay in Beka3 as long as the super powers need them to be there,
c) The Gaz in the Christian federal state regional water will be exploited by Companies from these super powers nations,
d) HA will be weaken as he will be deprived from the Christians federal state taxes income and will be geographically and politically weaken as well,
e) The Christian federal state can host super powers Naval and Arial basis which are very important in the east of Mediterranean for geopolitical reasons.....etc.

3) Stop paying any taxes to the central gov. in the Christians areas listed in point 1.....already central gov. services are almost non-existing at this stage.

4) Have a financial plan- from the Christian Diaspora and Church- to pay wages and expenses for the Christian LA Army that will split from the current LA once point 3 above is implemented

3) How will the Christian part be interworking with the other parts
Well it is up to other parts which I beleive they will be hostile towards the Christians federal state.....but this is to early to discuss now.
 
Last edited:

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The second part of the Civil War was actually intersectarian, not Christian-Muslim.
Can Aounists and LF coexist in the same Maronite state? I highly doubt it.
 

Nonan

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You assume
1) that common religion is enough for people to coexist within a “canton”. The civil war proved the opposite.
2) that “non-Christian” will agree to a three part division when they both (ie Sunnite and Shiite) think they can easily split Lebanon between the two of them without the Christians keeping anything (based on current balance of power).
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
i still believe there is hope, but not with the current politicians

If the christians rise up and get their heads out of the sand and see what the country has become they can come to an agreement. If the christians end up with a federal state it will house 2 million people and no one knows if Lebanese outside will actually return to it. It will be financed heavily by the expats and I for one will send as much as I can. I will probably even move with my family to this new Lebanon.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
The second part of the Civil War was actually intersectarian, not Christian-Muslim.
Can Aounists and LF coexist in the same Maronite state? I highly doubt it.

It will be regional where Franjiyeh and Geagea share the North Mount Lebanon


While FPM will be the majority in Mount Lebanon South; the power house of $$$ and influence

Thus, FPM will be the dominant party; considering their weigh is in the rich part of the Mountain
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
It will be regional where Franjiyeh and Geagea share the North Mount Lebanon


While FPM will be the majority in Mount Lebanon South; the power house of $$$ and influence

Thus, FPM will be the dominant party; considering their weigh is in the rich part of the Mountain

What we are stating is one big canton for the christians? There is no south or north mount lebanon. you want to cut it now into political parties and their influence?
 

flag-waver

Legendary Member
You assume
1) that common religion is enough for people to coexist within a “canton”. The civil war proved the opposite.
2) that “non-Christian” will agree to a three part division when they both (ie Sunnite and Shiite) think they can easily split Lebanon between the two of them without the Christians keeping anything (based on current balance of power).

What balance of power buddy? The sunnis are weak as. They have no army no arms nothing. Even a PM which doesn’t do jack nor can he even call for a government session. Your simply mistaken about the balance of power and it is between the Shia and the Christians who have captured the state.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Ahsan if you just shut up La2ano enta l bahdale aslan. Ento you go live in the Shia part la2ano no one wants you in their area. We are talking about one big state for the christians to get away from you terrorists that broke the country.

The terrorist is the one in your avatar, dimwit. You praise murderers w elak 3ein te7keh.
A big Christian canton is music to my ears. You guys will finish each other in a matter of weeks ad ma 3a2lkon zghir w ma fikon kheir la ba3ed :lol:
 
Top