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Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict: Critical and historical analysis

SAVO

SAVO

Member
I want to open this discussion .in order to understand and discuss from a scientific and critical point of view thos conflict : history, politics and choices..
Please keep this thread clear from attacks and useless post.. lets discuss based on dilocuments , Books and facts .. in order to understand .
 
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  • Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Old maps do say Palestine and the land did have Arabs and Bedouins. But it was never really parsed out as a separate nationality or identity in the modern sense. "Palestinian" was thrown out as an insult to nomads in that area.

    The Arabs, Druze and other minorities that live within Israel with make use of enlightenment, technology and diverse culture. Much like the Egyptians who mixed with the Greeks in the Ptolemaic era.

    Those living outside of it will have to outnumber their enemies by multiple times to be able to destroy everything to the ground and create one sovereign nationality. And this is sadly how things play out in history. The modern Palestine will be something grotesquely backwards like Egypt today. And it's rather unlikely the two will come to their senses or that their children would forget the blood between them.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Old maps do say Palestine and the land did have Arabs and Bedouins. But it was never really parsed out as a separate nationality or identity in the modern sense. "Palestinian" was thrown out as an insult to nomads in that area.

    The Arabs, Druze and other minorities that live within Israel with make use of enlightenment, technology and diverse culture. Much like the Egyptians who mixed with the Greeks in the Ptolemaic era.

    Those living outside of it will have to outnumber their enemies by multiple times to be able to destroy everything to the ground and create one sovereign nationality. And this is sadly how things play out in history. The modern Palestine will be something grotesquely backwards like Egypt today. And it's rather unlikely the two will come to their senses or that their children would forget the blood between them.
    "Old maps do say Palestine" - you seem to be inquisitive type.

    Perhaps you can show how name "Palestina" came into light - if you are struggling let me know, I'll help.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Old maps do say Palestine" - you seem to be inquisitive type.

    Perhaps you can show how name "Palestina" came into light - if you are struggling let me know, I'll help.
    I do mention that if you continue the paragraph.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I read it again - did not find the answer.
    Then you should deduce from what I said about the negative connotation of the term "Palestinian" that I did question the "term" itself to be an actual identity throughout history. The etymological origin from Philistines and those theories do not really add anything to the discussion. I look at them as redundant,
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    Then you should deduce from what I said about the negative connotation of the term "Palestinian" that I did question the "term" itself to be an actual identity throughout history. The etymological origin from Philistines and those theories do not really add anything to the discussion. I look at them as redundant,
    As your answer to the question "how name "Palestina" came into light" I was hoping to read something like this:

    "Palestine/Palestina is Greek word/name forced on Jews by Romans as punishment for the revolt of 132 AD and the name itself stuck among European Christians as alternative designation for Holy Land."

    And perhaps something like this: "Neither Jews nor Arabs like the name and Arabs cannot even pronounce it in Arabic"

    "The etymological origin from Philistines and those theories do not really add anything to the discussion" - well except the original reference to Philistines was to the area in vicinity of Gaza and only there.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    As your answer to the question "how name "Palestina" came into light" I was hoping to read something like this:

    "Palestine/Palestina is Greek word/name forced on Jews by Romans as punishment for the revolt of 132 AD and the name itself stuck among European Christians as alternative designation for Holy Land."

    And perhaps something like this: "Neither Jews nor Arabs like the name and Arabs cannot even pronounce it in Arabic"

    "The etymological origin from Philistines and those theories do not really add anything to the discussion" - well except the original reference to Philistines was to the area in vicinity of Gaza and only there.
    I don't see how that factors in with a modern conflict. Would you give up your universe to a cow because your galaxy is called "The Milky Way?"
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    I don't see how that factors in with a modern conflict. Would you give up your universe to a cow because your galaxy is called "The Milky Way?"
    "Would you give up your universe to a cow because your galaxy is called "The Milky Way?"" - no, and I am not proposing any such thing.

    However, "Old maps do say Palestine" and my response to it closely related to "modern conflict" - simply suggested that even older maps have Palestine nowhere near "modern conflict".
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    1592176145035.png

    Der Judenstaat ( The Jewish State) is a pamphlet written by Theodor Herzl and published in February 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna by M. Breitenstein's Verlags-Buchhandlung. It is subtitled with "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage" ("Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question") and was originally called "Address to the Rothschilds", referring to the Rothschild family banking dynasty, as Herzl planned to deliver it as a speech to the Rothschild family. Baron Edmond de Rothschild rejected Herzl's plan, feeling that it threatened Jews in the Diaspora. He also thought it would put his own settlements at risk.

    It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism.

    As expressed in this book, Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. The book encouraged Jews to purchase land in Palestine, although the possibility of a Jewish state in Argentina is also considered.

    Herzl popularized the term "Zionism", which was coined by Nathan Birnbaum. The nationalist movement culminated in the birth of the State of Israel in 1948, but Zionism continues to be connected with political support of Israel.

    "The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level.
    ......

    Therefore I believe that a wondrous generation of Jews will spring into existence. The Maccabeans will rise again.

    Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who wish for a State will have it.

    We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and die peacefully in our own homes.

    The world will be freed by our liberty, enriched by our wealth, magnified by our greatness.

    And whatever we attempt there to accomplish for our own welfare, will react powerfully and beneficially for the good of humanity
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    1592176475664.png


    "On the Jewish Question" is a work by Karl Marx, written in 1843, and first published in Paris in 1844 under the German title "Zur Judenfrage" in the Deutsch–Französische Jahrbücher. It was one of Marx's first attempts to develop what would later be called the materialist conception of history.

    The essay criticizes two studies by Marx's fellow Young Hegelian Bruno Bauer on the attempt by Jews to achieve political emancipation in Prussia. Bauer argued that Jews could achieve political emancipation only by relinquishing their particular religious consciousness, since political emancipation requires a secular state, which he assumes does not leave any "space" for social identities such as religion. According to Bauer, such religious demands are incompatible with the idea of the "Rights of Man". True political emancipation, for Bauer, requires the abolition of religion.

    Marx uses Bauer's essay as an occasion for his own analysis of liberal rights, arguing that Bauer is mistaken in his assumption that in a "secular state" religion will no longer play a prominent role in social life, and giving as an example the pervasiveness of religion in the United States, which, unlike Prussia, had no state religion. In Marx's analysis, the "secular state" is not opposed to religion, but rather actually presupposes it. The removal of religious or property qualifications for citizens does not mean the abolition of religion or property, but only introduces a way of regarding individuals in abstraction from them.

    On this note Marx moves beyond the question of religious freedom to his real concern with Bauer's analysis of "political emancipation". Marx concludes that while individuals can be "spiritually" and "politically" free in a secular state, they can still be bound to material constraints on freedom by economic inequality, an assumption that would later form the basis of his critiques of capitalism.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    1592176679315.png
    Rome and Jerusalem: The Last National Question (German: Rom und Jerusalem, die Letzte Nationalitätsfrage) is a book published by Moses Hess in 1862 in Leipzig. It gave impetus to the Labor Zionism movement. In his magnum opus, Hess argued for the Jews to return to Palestine, and proposed a socialist country in which the Jews would become agrarianised through a process of "redemption of the soil".

    The book was the first Zionist writing to put the question of Jewish nationalism in the context of European nationalism.

    Hess blended secular as well as religious philosophy, Hegelian dialectics, Spinoza's pantheism and Marxism.

    It was written against the background of German Jewish assimilationism, German antisemitism and German antipathy to nationalism arising in other countries. Hess used terminology of the day, such as the term "race", but he was an egalitarian who believed in the principles of the French Revolution, and wanted to apply the progressive concepts of his day to the Jewish people.

    Written in the form of twelve letters addressed to a woman in her grief at the loss of a relative. In his work, Hess put forward the following ideas:

    1. The Jews will always remain strangers among the European peoples, who may emancipate them for reasons of humanity and justice, but will never respect them so long as the Jews place their own great national memories in the background and hold to the principle, "Ubi bene, ibi patria." (Latin language: "where [it is] well, there [is] the fatherland")
    2. The Jewish type is indestructible, and Jewish national feeling can not be uprooted, although the German Jews, for the sake of a wider and more general emancipation, persuade themselves and others to the contrary.
    3. If the emancipation of the Jews is irreconcilable with Jewish nationality, the Jews must sacrifice emancipation to nationality. Hess considers that the only solution of the Jewish question lies in the returning to Palestine.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Jewish Question

    The Jewish question, also referred to as the Jewish problem, was a wide-ranging debate in 19th and 20th-century European society that pertained to the appropriate status and treatment of Jews. The debate, which was similar to other "national questions", dealt with the civil, legal, national, and political status of Jews as a minority within society, particularly in Europe during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

    The debate was started within western and central European societies by politicians and writers who were influenced by the Age of Enlightenment and the ideals of the French Revolution. The debate's issues included the legal and economic Jewish disabilities (e.g. Jewish quotas and segregation), Jewish assimilation, Jewish emancipation and Jewish Enlightenment. .

    The term "Jewish question" was first used in Great Britain around 1750 when the expression "Jewish question" was used during the debates related to the Jew Bill of 1753 .

    The question was next discussed in France (la question juive) after the French Revolution in 1789. It was discussed in Germany in 1843 via Bruno Bauer's treatise Die Judenfrage ("The Jewish Question"). He argued that Jews could achieve political emancipation only if they let go their religious consciousness, as he proposed that political emancipation required a secular state. In 1898, Theodore Herzl's treatise, Der Judenstaat, advocates Zionism as a "modern solution for the Jewish question" by creating an independent Jewish state, preferably in Palestine.

    In his book The Jewish Question (1843), Bauer argued that Jews could only achieve political emancipation if they relinquish their particular religious consciousness. He believed that political emancipation requires a secular state, and said that did not leave any "space" for social identities such as religion. According to Bauer, such religious demands are incompatible with the idea of the "Rights of Man." True political emancipation, for Bauer, requires the abolition of religion.

    Karl Marx replied to Bauer in his 1844 essay On the Jewish Question. Marx repudiated Bauer's view that the nature of the Jewish religion prevented assimilation by Jews. Instead, Marx attacks Bauer's very formulation of the question from "can the jews become politically emancipated?" as fundamentally masking the nature of political emancipation itself.

    Marx uses Bauer's essay as an occasion for his own analysis of liberal rights. Marx argues that Bauer is mistaken in his assumption that in a "secular state", religion will no longer play a prominent role in social life. As an example, he refers to the pervasiveness of religion in the United States, which, unlike Prussia, had no state religion. In Marx's analysis, the "secular state" is not opposed to religion, but rather assumes it. The removal of religious or property qualifications for citizenship does not mean the abolition of religion or property, but rather naturalizes both and introduces a way of regarding individuals in abstraction from them. On this note Marx moves beyond the question of religious freedom to his real concern with Bauer's analysis of "political emancipation." Marx concludes that while individuals can be 'politically' free in a secular state, they are still bound to material constraints on freedom by economic inequality, an assumption that would later form the basis of his critiques of capitalism.

    Werner Sombart praised Jews for their capitalism and presented the seventeenth–eighteenth century court Jews as integrated and a model for integration.By the turn of the twentieth century, the debate was still widely discussed. The Dreyfus Affair in France, believed to be evidence of anti-semitism, increased the prominence of this issue. Within the religious and political elite, some continued to favor assimilation and political engagement in Europe[citation needed] while others, such as Theodore Herzl, proposed the advancement of a separate Jewish state and the Zionist cause. Between 1880 and 1920, millions of Jews created their own solution for the pogroms of eastern Europe by emigration to other places, primarily the United States and western Europe.


    In Nazi Germany, the term Jewish Question (in German: Judenfrage) referred to the belief that the existence of Jews in Germany posed a problem for the state. In 1933 two Nazi theorists, Johann von Leers and Achim Gercke, both proposed the idea that the Jewish Question could be solved by resettling Jews in Madagascar or resettling them somewhere else in Africa or South America. They also discussed the pros and cons of supporting the German Zionists. Von Leers asserted that establishing a Jewish homeland in British Palestine would create humanitarian and political problems for the region .
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    View attachment 19811

    Der Judenstaat ( The Jewish State) is a pamphlet written by Theodor Herzl and published in February 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna by M. Breitenstein's Verlags-Buchhandlung. It is subtitled with "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage" ("Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question") and was originally called "Address to the Rothschilds", referring to the Rothschild family banking dynasty, as Herzl planned to deliver it as a speech to the Rothschild family. Baron Edmond de Rothschild rejected Herzl's plan, feeling that it threatened Jews in the Diaspora. He also thought it would put his own settlements at risk.

    It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism.

    As expressed in this book, Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. The book encouraged Jews to purchase land in Palestine, although the possibility of a Jewish state in Argentina is also considered.

    Herzl popularized the term "Zionism", which was coined by Nathan Birnbaum. The nationalist movement culminated in the birth of the State of Israel in 1948, but Zionism continues to be connected with political support of Israel.

    "The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers. Wherever it does not exist, it is brought in together with Jewish immigrants. We are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level.
    ......

    Therefore I believe that a wondrous generation of Jews will spring into existence. The Maccabeans will rise again.

    Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who wish for a State will have it.

    We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and die peacefully in our own homes.

    The world will be freed by our liberty, enriched by our wealth, magnified by our greatness.

    And whatever we attempt there to accomplish for our own welfare, will react powerfully and beneficially for the good of humanity
    You are young member (joined in 2019) - I can assure you that we had this kind of discussion few times prior you joining.

    And even more importantly - Jews had this discussion 120 years before even when we had it her.

    As you may have guessed the result of that discussion - Jews decided that alternatives be damned, there is no place like home.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Would you give up your universe to a cow because your galaxy is called "The Milky Way?"" - no, and I am not proposing any such thing.

    However, "Old maps do say Palestine" and my response to it closely related to "modern conflict" - simply suggested that even older maps have Palestine nowhere near "modern conflict".
    Older maps as in the 1800s and 1900s. So they are relevant.
     
    Myso

    Myso

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    As you may have guessed the result of that discussion - Jews decided that alternatives be damned, there is no place like home.
    That's very inaccurate. Jews didn't want that land or have that much power in making the decision. That idea was suggested and executed by Evangelical Christians.
     
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