Ashura thread - To commomerotate the great Imam Hussein (AS)

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    Ralph N

    Active Member
    Imam Hussien (AS) was avoiding blood spill. Even went to Iraq and hid in the desert to avoid engaging in a war. But the enemy followed him.

    Jesus isn't as your Bible depicts him. He held a sword and was a revolutionary and a zealot.

    Take the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas for instance (which the European church rejected, of course, to feminize Christianity)


    (98) Jesus says:
    (1) “The kingdom of the Father is lik a person who wanted to kill a powerful person.
    (2) He drew the sword in his house (and) stabbed it into the wall to test whether his hand would be strong (enough).


    (16) Jesus says:
    (1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.
    (2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
    (3) For there will be five in one house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father.
    (4) And they will stand as solitary ones.”

    It is Gnosis...u need to interpret it as the Gnosis did...and by the way did Jesus in any day lift a sword and kill a man?...No...

    Stop forcing Jesus to be something he is not... Killing is only creating a new Karma.. while Jesus said lose it all so that u can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    It is Gnosis...u need to interpret it as the Gnosis did...and by the way did Jesus in any day lift a sword and kill a man?...No...

    Stop forcing Jesus to be something he is not... Killing is only creating a new Karma.. while Jesus said lose it all so that u can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
    Talking about war strategy, and change of plans, we see in the NT that Jesus asked his disciples to sell their clothes and buy swords, when he sensed danger from his fellow Jews. When the swords were in hand and the Jews acted contrary to his expectation by bringing Roman soldiers along to arrest him, he changed his plan. Peter used the sword and struck the ear of one of the soldiers and as purported, Jesus fixed the ear back and renounced his initial plan for confrontation. Fighting a few Jewish zealots was altogether different than confrontation Roman soldiers and clashing with the authorities of the Roman empire. He changed his plan. Yet still, his enemies were adamant on killing him even though he didn't give in into any of their plans or excuses to nail him.

    In the case of Imam Hussein, he refused to pay allegiance to the tyrant. The tyrant asked for his blood to be shed. Imam Hussein was invited to Kufa by the thousands. He embarked on the journey and half way through was told that those people have their hearts with him and their swords against him. Yet still, he continued on his journey. It was a matter of choosing where to embrace death. He chose it to be in Karbala. The plan of Yazeed and his forces was clear. It was to make sure the Imam pays allegiance. That was not going to happen because the Imam boldly said that "my type does not pay allegiance to his type". That was a bold statement. He could have retraced his steps and paid allegiance when confronted with death. The Imam was opposed to Yazeed and could have revolted. But in that particular instance of life and death, he could have chickened and accept life under humiliation and the rule of a tyrant but he didn't! He chose instead to sacrifice his life and the lives of his loved ones who refused to abandon him. That is a story of sacrifice and loyalty. His match to Karbala, or rather to Kufa as was intended, was not aimed at seeking war. He even offered them allow him go into exile as a compromise, instead of them staining their hands with the blood of the grandson of the Messenger of God. And they refused.

    He was only left with the options of either surrendering or accepting confrontation. And he refused to surrender to tyranny and humiliation.
     
    R

    Ralph N

    Active Member
    When did a man going to war take along with him his wives, sisters, nephews and his six months old baby?

    View attachment 13356
    Talking about war strategy, and change of plans, we see in the NT that Jesus asked his disciples to sell their clothes and buy swords, when he sensed danger from his fellow Jews. When the swords were in hand and the Jews acted contrary to his expectation by bringing Roman soldiers along to arrest him, he changed his plan. Peter used the sword and struck the ear of one of the soldiers and as purported, Jesus fixed the ear back and renounced his initial plan for confrontation. Fighting a few Jewish zealots was altogether different than confrontation Roman soldiers and clashing with the authorities of the Roman empire. He changed his plan. Yet still, his enemies were adamant on killing him even though he didn't give in into any of their plans or excuses to nail him.

    In the case of Imam Hussein, he refused to pay allegiance to the tyrant. The tyrant asked for his blood to be shed. Imam Hussein was invited to Kufa by the thousands. He embarked on the journey and half way through was told that those people have their hearts with him and their swords against him. Yet still, he continued on his journey. It was a matter of choosing where to embrace death. He chose it to be in Karbala. The plan of Yazeed and his forces was clear. It was to make sure the Imam pays allegiance. That was not going to happen because the Imam boldly said that "my type does not pay allegiance to his type". That was a bold statement. He could have retraced his steps and paid allegiance when confronted with death. The Imam was opposed to Yazeed and could have revolted. But in that particular instance of life and death, he could have chickened and accept life under humiliation and the rule of a tyrant but he didn't! He chose instead to sacrifice his life and the lives of his loved ones who refused to abandon him. That is a story of sacrifice and loyalty. His match to Karbala, or rather to Kufa as was intended, was not aimed at seeking war. He even offered them allow him go into exile as a compromise, instead of them staining their hands with the blood of the grandson of the Messenger of God. And they refused.

    He was only left with the options of either surrendering or accepting confrontation. And he refused to surrender to tyranny and humiliation.

    You think Jesus was going to be a militia leader? seeing the whole world in your glass....wow.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    You think Jesus was going to be a militia leader? seeing the whole world in your glass....wow.
    Change of Strategy:

    Luke 22:36
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

    Matthew 26:51-52
    With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    Talking about war strategy, and change of plans, we see in the NT that Jesus asked his disciples to sell their clothes and buy swords, when he sensed danger from his fellow Jews. When the swords were in hand and the Jews acted contrary to his expectation by bringing Roman soldiers along to arrest him, he changed his plan. Peter used the sword and struck the ear of one of the soldiers and as purported, Jesus fixed the ear back and renounced his initial plan for confrontation. Fighting a few Jewish zealots was altogether different than confrontation Roman soldiers and clashing with the authorities of the Roman empire. He changed his plan. Yet still, his enemies were adamant on killing him even though he didn't give in into any of their plans or excuses to nail him.

    In the case of Imam Hussein, he refused to pay allegiance to the tyrant. The tyrant asked for his blood to be shed. Imam Hussein was invited to Kufa by the thousands. He embarked on the journey and half way through was told that those people have their hearts with him and their swords against him. Yet still, he continued on his journey. It was a matter of choosing where to embrace death. He chose it to be in Karbala. The plan of Yazeed and his forces was clear. It was to make sure the Imam pays allegiance. That was not going to happen because the Imam boldly said that "my type does not pay allegiance to his type". That was a bold statement. He could have retraced his steps and paid allegiance when confronted with death. The Imam was opposed to Yazeed and could have revolted. But in that particular instance of life and death, he could have chickened and accept life under humiliation and the rule of a tyrant but he didn't! He chose instead to sacrifice his life and the lives of his loved ones who refused to abandon him. That is a story of sacrifice and loyalty. His match to Karbala, or rather to Kufa as was intended, was not aimed at seeking war. He even offered them allow him go into exile as a compromise, instead of them staining their hands with the blood of the grandson of the Messenger of God. And they refused.

    He was only left with the options of either surrendering or accepting confrontation. And he refused to surrender to tyranny and humiliation.
    Change of Strategy:

    Luke 22:36
    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

    Matthew 26:51-52
    With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
    Where does this weird absurd narrative of yours originate? Where does it get its support - that Jesus, in doing God's will or mission, had originally planned a military coup against the roman/jewish authorities, and in some (late) moment of clarity, particularly at the frightening sight of the roman soldiers coming to arrest him, Jesus realized his plan or mission would fail, and so from that moment on, Jesus changed his mind and preached what amounts to be the opposite of that plan or mission. Is it the Bible? if so, can you point out where and how? Is it even the quran? If so, how does it fair with your islamic quranic belief anyway - that a prophet and a messenger of Allah would fail his Allah's assigned mission (in this case, winning military against the Romans and Jewish authorities).

    Or is it just an instinctive non thought-out invalid response to the accusation of violence against islam, its prophet and his disciples and followers?
     
    Big Brother

    Big Brother

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Where does this weird absurd narrative of yours originate? Where does it get its support - that Jesus, in doing God's will or mission, had originally planned a military coup against the roman/jewish authorities, and in some (late) moment of clarity, particularly at the frightening sight of the roman soldiers coming to arrest him, Jesus realized his plan or mission would fail, and so from that moment on, Jesus changed his mind and preached what amounts to be the opposite of that plan or mission. Is it the Bible? if so, can you point out where and how? Is it even the quran? If so, how does it fair with your islamic quranic belief anyway - that a prophet and a messenger of Allah would fail his Allah's assigned mission (in this case, winning military against the Romans and Jewish authorities).

    Or is it just an instinctive non thought-out invalid response to the accusation of violence against islam, its prophet and his disciples and followers?
    Welcome back @Thoma.

    It's wicked old me.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    @Rachel Corrie

    how detached from reality must you actually be when in the process of presenting and holding on to a certain narrative, you have to conveniently, deliberately and unwarrantable ignore a) the surrounding text of the verses your are quoting and basing your narrative on (quoting out-of-context or quote-mining), b) the evidenced margin of interpretation of said text marked by the lives of those who originated, applied and spread it in the first place (evidenced by the fact of Christianity taking roots, growing and spreading exponentially under extreme persecutions, yet not only without a hint of or a call for a single darbit kaf in return, but unanimously with a constant call to and application of the opposite), and c) your own held islamic doctrine of Jesus being a prophet of Allah and that a prophet of Allah is necessarily maasum (from failing his Allah's appointed mission, which he fails according to your narrative) and be thereby exhibiting your cognitive dissonance?
     
    Last edited:
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    what might be the reason for this behavior though? might it be that your mind is trying to divert attention from and give legitimacy/validity/normativity to the figures of mohammad and hussein, and to the apparent dissonance between the two? because this weird change-of-strategy (read; contradiction) narrative of yours fits naturally mohammad establishing and spreading his Allah's message of/by planning, executing and winning wars against others, and hussein failing afterwards in this regard, making a change-of-strategy, namely by allegedly choosing self-sacrifice instead of war (while still warring nonetheless)
     
    J

    joseph_lubnan

    Legendary Member
    what might be the reason for this behavior though? might it be that your mind is trying to divert attention from and give legitimacy/validity/normativity to the figures of mohammad and hussein, and to the apparent dissonance between the two? because this weird change-of-strategy (read; contradiction) narrative of yours fits naturally mohammad establishing and spreading his Allah's message of/by planning, executing and winning wars against others, and hussein failing afterwards in this regard, making a change-of-strategy, namely by allegedly choosing self-sacrifice instead of war (while still warring nonetheless)
    What/what/what/what are you talking/talking/taking about??? :lol:/:happy:/:)
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    @Rachel Corrie

    how detached from reality must you actually be when in the process of presenting and holding on to a certain narrative, you have to conveniently, deliberately and unwarrantable ignore a) the surrounding text of the verses your are quoting and basing your narrative on (quoting out-of-context or quote-mining), b) the evidenced margin of interpretation of said text marked by the lives of those who originated, applied and spread it in the first place (evidenced by the fact of Christianity taking roots, growing and spreading exponentially under extreme persecutions, yet not only without a hint of or a call for a single darbit kaf in return, but unanimously with a constant call to and application of the opposite), and c) your own held islamic doctrine of Jesus being a prophet of Allah and that a prophet of Allah is necessarily maasum (from failing his Allah's appointed mission, which he fails according to your narrative) and be thereby exhibiting your cognitive dissonance?

    A.) Jesus, sensing danger, said "buy swords".
    B.) When the danger presents itself, Jesus said "don't use your swords".

    That is change of strategy.

    Earlier before, he placed his disciples on guard at Gethsemane while he was praying and sweating profusely, asking God to save his life.

    As for the spread of Christianity, you cannot fight or make a war when you stand no chance against the opponents. Christianity was adopted by the power of the day. However, the mainstream version used brutal force to persecute smaller sects and ensure that uniform doctrines were embraced by all early Christians within its jurisdiction.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Imam Hussien (AS) was avoiding blood spill. Even went to Iraq and hid in the desert to avoid engaging in a war. But the enemy followed him.

    Jesus isn't as your Bible depicts him. He held a sword and was a revolutionary and a zealot.

    Take the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas for instance (which the European church rejected, of course, to feminize Christianity)


    (98) Jesus says:
    (1) “The kingdom of the Father is lik a person who wanted to kill a powerful person.
    (2) He drew the sword in his house (and) stabbed it into the wall to test whether his hand would be strong (enough).


    (16) Jesus says:
    (1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.
    (2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.
    (3) For there will be five in one house: there will be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father.
    (4) And they will stand as solitary ones.”
    why don't you do us all a favor and stick to explaining whatever it is you believe in and know, when and if asked, instead of foolishly attempting to explain that of which you obviously have no knowledge.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Another FPMers dhimmi??
    there is nothing wrong in attending the ashoura commemoration or any other occasion, neither politically, nor religiously, it is part of our long traditions in Lebanon that differentiate the Lebanese from the rest of the arab world, it is more than normal to share these events with each other and with friends, many moslems visit and pray in our churches and monasteries and celebrate many events with Christians. though i do not like the staging with that big crosses to draw attention and proclaim "look at me, i am a Christian and i am here", but that's not a major deal.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    there is nothing wrong in attending the ashoura commemoration or any other occasion, neither politically, nor religiously, it is part of our long traditions in Lebanon that differentiate the Lebanese from the rest of the arab world, it is more than normal to share these events with each other and with friends, many moslems visit and pray in our churches and monasteries and celebrate many events with Christians. though i do not like the staging with that big crosses to draw attention and proclaim "look at me, i am a Christian and i am here", but that's not a major deal.
    but the people who are wearing crosses are doing exactly that. eno look @ me im a christian and going to ashoura. eno chou hal statement ya3ne one is making. pretty silly actually.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    The moral lessons of Ashura:

    Ashura is one stance in a thousand ways.

    It is thirst.

    It is hunger.

    It is siege.

    It is sweat in the scorching desert plain of Karbala.

    It is blood.

    It is torture.

    It is decapitation.

    It is mutilation.

    It is imprisonment.

    It is arson.

    It is sacrifice.

    It is seeing your relatives and loved ones killed one after the other.

    Yet, in the face of all those atrocities and more, it is a deliberate, staunch and resounding NO to humiliation, tyranny and subjugation to forcefully get approval for the tyrant/oppressor and his tyranny/oppression.
     
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