Ashura thread - To commomerotate the great Imam Hussein (AS)

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Nonan

Nonan

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True but not if thisis planned.
Jesus is the only way to Heaven, sorry for the ones who are missing it
I’m pretty sure that is not what Jesus himself would promote (nor do the Jesuits actually... but hey, you’re probably more Christian than them)...
 
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  • Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I’m pretty sure that is not what Jesus himself would promote (nor do the Jesuits actually... but hey, you’re probably more Christian than them)...
    John 14:6
    Jesus answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

    inta 3indak shaghle w 3amle gheir inno tna22er 3ala kel wa7ad bye7ke 3an yessou3 w suggest inno inno he is a bad Christian thinking he is better than all others?
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

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    I, as a Muslim, accept Jesus is the only way to heaven. Only that that way doesn't include worshipping a man, deifying him and turning him into a lamb and believing in human sacrifice or any man made doctrines designed and adopted by early Christian Bishops in councils over the centuries.
    God on earth in a man's body born of a woman who conceived for nine months; was circumcised; prayed to another God somewhere else; and then died and was brought back to life by another power.

    And we'd end up going to discussing the Trinity and how it came to be and the council that adopted it as a doctrine. I think I'm tired of going through this. Have a nice day.
    none of these are an actual problem. these are simply internet argument points. the reality is that if God wants to become Man, then being all powerful and capable, nothing would stop Him. you reject the idea that God would become Man and walk among us not because it is impossible, but rather because you simply refuse that idea. why you do refuse that idea is the interesting bit. you refuse it because you are indoctrinated in a different faith, a different system of belief, and subscribe to a very different notion of the divine, one that is pretty much set in stone. you know that warning against worshiping idols of stone, it is not simply a warning against worshiping statues, it is a warning that your perspective as well must not become one set in stone.

    but regardless, the differences of the notions is on every level of your argument, you use the same words, for instance, the word worship you use, means something very different to you than it does to us, yet it is the same word. what does it mean to worship anyway? what does it mean to believe? islam literally says it believes in all the prophets, what does it mean to believe in prophets when you only know their names? what does it mean when you do not even know their names?

    you try to raise the argument of how could Christ be God when he is praying to God? yet you do not raise that question when you say salla allahou 3ala mou7ammad. what does it mean to pray? that also is a word that we both use but denote two completely different meanings.

    to make it simpler for you, and in short, we believe in a God who does not shy away from becoming human and walking with us, to experience life in all its sweetness and all its bitterness that we all do, set and example for us to follow, in particular in the face of hardships and pain. we believe that creation is an act of Love. you however do not believe that God would go through that trouble for his creation, and that the role of creation is restricted to worship, which raises more eyebrows than it provides answers.

    that is all there is to it.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Al Hussein is a tactical communication strategy utilized in the trading of deities and arms from Iran to Hezbollah. For al-Hussin to have a substantive meaning one should revolt against Hezbollah and the self appointed Yazid Nasrallah and his Iranian Master Khamenii. This would indeed be the position of courage at the moment when the Yazid of Lebanon called Nasrallah is ousted from the political system because he is not elected and he is not a member of the Lebanese Parliament. He is the self appointed Yazid just like the Shah of Iran was.
     
    theMightyRedV

    theMightyRedV

    Well-Known Member
    Al Hussein is a tactical communication strategy utilized in the trading of deities and arms from Iran to Hezbollah. For al-Hussin to have a substantive meaning one should revolt against Hezbollah and the self appointed Yazid Nasrallah and his Iranian Master Khamenii. This would indeed be the position of courage at the moment when the Yazid of Lebanon called Nasrallah is ousted from the political system because he is not elected and he is not a member of the Lebanese Parliament. He is the self appointed Yazid just like the Shah of Iran was.
    lol
     
    vicking

    vicking

    Well-Known Member
    God on earth in a man's body born of a woman who conceived for nine months; was circumcised; prayed to another God somewhere else; and then died and was brought back to life by another power.

    And we'd end up going to discussing the Trinity and how it came to be and the council that adopted it as a doctrine. I think I'm tired of going through this. Have a nice day.
    You are trying to find a logical explanation for 1+1=2.
    This is so human and so Earth based... Please give a chance to Faith and Love - two notiions that cant be explained logically. The minute you have a proof of God's existence then you are in trouble as you would have to behave perfectly
    Jesus preaches love and forgiveness. This is the reason why we have no eternal enemies, we moved on with forgiving Syrians and Palestinians and should fix our issues with the Israelis once for all as not only people are suffering but it goes against Christianity and will keep us far from Heaven.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    I think replying with a word - "OK" - would suffice for a reply to your blabbing. But I'd touch on two points only, that you're trying to dodge, after denying a fact in your earlier post.

    "Military confrontation" is indeed a far cry to what Jesus could have staged in defense. He neither had the followers nor the means. Rather, use the word "violent confrontation". That is more suitable to use because of his limited means and followers ready to defend him. In line with his limited means, and his will to buy swords for his few followers, and then asking his followers to keep their swords when he was to be arrested speaks of a strategy change. And a violent confrontation would have been more suited if those he is fighting are a bunch of Jewish zealots, but certainly not Roman soldiers. The fact of the presence of Roman soldiers mentioned in John changes the entire narrative. The Jewish elite made sure he was totally subdued and couldn't have resisted in anyway. Removing that detail of the presence of Roman soldiers and the Jews coming to arrest him sends the idea of a submissive Jesus who didn't resist at all, even though he could have resisted ordinary Jewish men of no state authority. However, even if he wanted to resist arrest and use force to defend himself, the presence of Roman soldiers or state authority would make it a crime to employ force and make him face the wrath of Rome. He would have made himself guilty with his own hands if he had resisted Roman soldiers.

    Additionally, fulfilling prophecies is just more than a symbolic gesture. Swords are not bought to be used as kitchen knives. They're bought for a purpose. In the case of Jesus, that purpose could not have been realized because of the twist of events. Too little means and followers and the enemies were much strong and had state sanction. The enemies had the wisdom and foresight to bring along state authority and make it an official arrest.

    Please also explain or clarify how does buying swords for self defense lead one to be "numbered among the transgressors"? Is self defense transgression?
    whether you quality it as 'military confrontation' or 'violent confrontation', 'against the Jewish authorities' or 'against the roman authorities', 'before a change-of-strategy' or whatever, it absolutely makes no difference at this point, because your narrative boils down to the claim (or assumes the premise that) 'at some point, Jesus wanted to violently confront his enemies', something that simply goes up against all of 1) the very passage you're quoting the verse from in its support, 2) the entirety of the NT of which the passage is part (the NT along with the OT), and 3) the apostles themselves, the companions and followers of Jesus; which means against the people who followed (in) the footsteps of Jesus - and they all (unanimously) walked in the opposite direction to your narrative all while drawing more and more people to them on that path. you will have to wrestle with that first before presenting your narrative as though it is something other than crackpot ramblings

    and yes having swords for self-defense could lead one to be "numbered among the transgressors" by those doing the 'numbering', even without (having to) making use of these swords. this needs no explanation
     
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    T

    Thoma

    New Member
    You are trying to find a logical explanation for 1+1=2.
    This is so human and so Earth based... Please give a chance to Faith and Love - two notiions that cant be explained logically. The minute you have a proof of God's existence then you are in trouble as you would have to behave perfectly
    Jesus preaches love and forgiveness. This is the reason why we have no eternal enemies, we moved on with forgiving Syrians and Palestinians and should fix our issues with the Israelis once for all as not only people are suffering but it goes against Christianity and will keep us far from Heaven.
    I hope you take this in good faith. Nothing in what he said in mockery has any rational basis or merit, and yet you drew out the 'mystery' card immediately in response, instead of making any effort whatsoever. Good intentions are not enough, the road to hell is paved with these. You can push something behind the veil of mystery alright, but not without first warranting its truth and rationality. Truth is at the foundation of Christianity. If you're not willing nor capable of being up to par with that or of at least investing and exhibiting some effort in this regard, then it is always better to not engage at all except through some other appropriate means e.g. a good tertile, life testimony, etc
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    Al Hussein is a tactical communication strategy utilized in the trading of deities and arms from Iran to Hezbollah. For al-Hussin to have a substantive meaning one should revolt against Hezbollah and the self appointed Yazid Nasrallah and his Iranian Master Khamenii. This would indeed be the position of courage at the moment when the Yazid of Lebanon called Nasrallah is ousted from the political system because he is not elected and he is not a member of the Lebanese Parliament. He is the self appointed Yazid just like the Shah of Iran was.
    Btef2a3e
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    none of these are an actual problem. these are simply internet argument points. the reality is that if God wants to become Man, then being all powerful and capable, nothing would stop Him. you reject the idea that God would become Man and walk among us not because it is impossible, but rather because you simply refuse that idea. why you do refuse that idea is the interesting bit. you refuse it because you are indoctrinated in a different faith, a different system of belief, and subscribe to a very different notion of the divine, one that is pretty much set in stone. you know that warning against worshiping idols of stone, it is not simply a warning against worshiping statues, it is a warning that your perspective as well must not become one set in stone.

    but regardless, the differences of the notions is on every level of your argument, you use the same words, for instance, the word worship you use, means something very different to you than it does to us, yet it is the same word. what does it mean to worship anyway? what does it mean to believe? islam literally says it believes in all the prophets, what does it mean to believe in prophets when you only know their names? what does it mean when you do not even know their names?

    you try to raise the argument of how could Christ be God when he is praying to God? yet you do not raise that question when you say salla allahou 3ala mou7ammad. what does it mean to pray? that also is a word that we both use but denote two completely different meanings.

    to make it simpler for you, and in short, we believe in a God who does not shy away from becoming human and walking with us, to experience life in all its sweetness and all its bitterness that we all do, set and example for us to follow, in particular in the face of hardships and pain. we believe that creation is an act of Love. you however do not believe that God would go through that trouble for his creation, and that the role of creation is restricted to worship, which raises more eyebrows than it provides answers.

    that is all there is to it.
    Your entire post dwells on the possibility that a duck can transform into a chicken, for instance. It makes no sense. Can you become me? Or can you become a horse? This is even lot simpler, if it was just a matter of God coming down to dwell in the womb of a woman for nine months and then being given birth to and roaming the earth. The issue becomes problematic when this supposed God prays to another, and then had to "sacrifice" himself and to only come back to life again. Was he really dead? Or was he just bored and needed to act some more scenes? The question about "sallallahou 3alaihi" is completely different. It is amazing when an Arabic speaker raises such frivolity.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    Al Hussein is a tactical communication strategy utilized in the trading of deities and arms from Iran to Hezbollah. For al-Hussin to have a substantive meaning one should revolt against Hezbollah and the self appointed Yazid Nasrallah and his Iranian Master Khamenii. This would indeed be the position of courage at the moment when the Yazid of Lebanon called Nasrallah is ousted from the political system because he is not elected and he is not a member of the Lebanese Parliament. He is the self appointed Yazid just like the Shah of Iran was.
    Ya 3amme, is it by force to be metweleh Jews? We don't want to anymore.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    whether you quality it as 'military confrontation' or 'violent confrontation', 'against the Jewish authorities' or 'against the roman authorities', 'before a change-of-strategy' or whatever, it absolutely makes no difference at this point, because your narrative boils down to the claim (or assumes the premise that) 'at some point, Jesus wanted to violently confront his enemies', something that simply goes up against all of 1) the very passage you're quoting the verse from in its support, 2) the entirety of the NT of which the passage is part (the NT along with the OT), and 3) the apostles themselves, the companions and followers of Jesus; which means against the people who followed (in) the footsteps of Jesus - and they all (unanimously) walked in the opposite direction to your narrative all while drawing more and more people to them on that path. you will have to wrestle with that first before presenting your narrative as though it is something other than crackpot ramblings

    and yes having swords for self-defense could lead one to be "numbered among the transgressors" by those doing the 'numbering', even without (having to) making use of these swords. this needs no explanation
    "Violently confronting one's enemies" and self defense are two different things. Jesus and his followers were people of little means. Why do you ignore the historical fact that the early Roman Empire which adopted Christianity used force to eliminate smaller "heretical" sects that did not adopt mainstream and uniform doctrines designed by the early church fathers? Once the means became available and there was growth in strength through utilizing state power, the "meek and gentle" acted in Takfiri fashion to eliminate smaller groups with what it saw as "heretical beliefs".
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Your entire post dwells on the possibility that a duck can transform into a chicken, for instance. It makes no sense. Can you become me? Or can you become a horse? This is even lot simpler, if it was just a matter of God coming down to dwell in the womb of a woman for nine months and then being given birth to and roaming the earth. The issue becomes problematic when this supposed God prays to another, and then had to "sacrifice" himself and to only come back to life again. Was he really dead? Or was he just bored and needed to act some more scenes? The question about "sallallahou 3alaihi" is completely different. It is amazing when an Arabic speaker raises such frivolity.
    that is precisely my point. you limit what God can or cannot do to make Him fit in your own narrow set of beliefs. there is no need to argue beyond this point. is there? if God chooses to manifest Himself as a human being then He certainly can do that, if He cannot do that then He is no longer all powerful and all capable. you have to choose, either this or that, you cannot have it both ways.

    as what you consider to be problematic in Jesus praying, we have addressed this a thousand times so far. it is quite fine if you do not want to understand that. what is not fine however is that you accept the fact that allah prays on muhammad without questioning. but all of that aside, the notion of prayer is very different between islam and Christianity. our prayer is not a repetitive act that has to be done on the precise strike of a clock, it is rather an on going communication with the Divine, so even from this perspective your 'problematic' case becomes forced and baseless.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    that is precisely my point. you limit what God can or cannot do to make Him fit in your own narrow set of beliefs. there is no need to argue beyond this point. is there? if God chooses to manifest Himself as a human being then He certainly can do that, if He cannot do that then He is no longer all powerful and all capable. you have to choose, either this or that, you cannot have it both ways.

    as what you consider to be problematic in Jesus praying, we have addressed this a thousand times so far. it is quite fine if you do not want to understand that. what is not fine however is that you accept the fact that allah prays on muhammad without questioning. but all of that aside, the notion of prayer is very different between islam and Christianity. our prayer is not a repetitive act that has to be done on the precise strike of a clock, it is rather an on going communication with the Divine, so even from this perspective your 'problematic' case becomes forced and baseless.
    Was it a transformation, a transfiguration, or a manifestation? All these mean different things?

    Praying on someone doesn't necessarily denote worship. Your priest can pray on your head. You know that? They can also bless you by uttering certain words. But when someone falls on his face in subservience, as Jesus did, or making prayers in anticipation of a wish being granted, again as Jesus did, is a different thing.

    Then saying prayer is different and talking about repetitive act, well, repetition is the order of all our existence. Jesus himself followed Jewish prayer and it is three times a day. He fasted repetitively for forty days. In Islam, worship is not when you feel like. Going to a place of worship or offering prayers are not acts to be done only when you need God or you feel bored. It is a ritual.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Was it a transformation, a transfiguration, or a manifestation? All these mean different things?
    if you cannot concede that God can do anything, including being born of a woman and growing up like a human being, then it proves beyond a shred of doubt that you are simply arguing out of spite, and arguing to argue.

    your argument as a moslem should be that God wouldn't do that, not that God cannot do that. in your islamic perspective that would fit with the image of allah and with the notion that the purpose of creation is simply to "worship" allah in the islamic sense. we subscribe to a different notion, that creation is an act of Love, a notion that makes it quite plausible that God would incarnate, walk with us, set the example, and make Himself known.

    it is funny how we can easily wrap our mind around the islamic notions, yet it seems next to impossible for you to be able to do that. you know why that is? because if you are under the impression that everything you subscribe to might crumble if you even concede any little thing that is not completely conform with your indoctrination.

    Christians adopt a completely different approach, explore, postulate, think, examine the alternatives, and then test your truth against all of that.

    Praying on someone doesn't necessarily denote worship. Your priest can pray on your head. You know that? They can also bless you by uttering certain words. But when someone falls on his face in subservience, as Jesus did, or making prayers in anticipation of a wish being granted, again as Jesus did, is a different thing.
    Jesus was fully human and fully divine, He presented an example for mankind to follow by living it, in addition to the fact that prayer means something completely different in Christianity, it is a communication with God, and that is at the heart of the Trinity, the very meaning of the word to worship is have your mouth close enough to the other person's mouth to breathe the other person's breath.

    here we are, we have explained why Jesus was praying a hundreds of times, and yet you reject our explanation, despite it fitting perfectly well with the overall Christian perspective.

    the real question here is why would you keep doing that? in particular when on the other you think that it is very normal for God to pray on the prophet and act as if the arabic language does not have synonyms for "blessed".

    Then saying prayer is different and talking about repetitive act, well, repetition is the order of all our existence. Jesus himself followed Jewish prayer and it is three times a day. He fasted repetitively for forty days. In Islam, worship is not when you feel like. Going to a place of worship or offering prayers are not acts to be done only when you need God or you feel bored. It is a ritual.
    Mat 6:
    7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    and you are wrong. the bible asserts that every form of thought or action is a prayer, and a bonus to establish my idea from before about testing for truth.
    1 th 5:
    16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

    and you can hear out what priests say about that for a change in Sunday service, you can start that from (3:09) though i advise you to listen to the bible passage as well.

     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    if you cannot concede that God can do anything, including being born of a woman and growing up like a human being, then it proves beyond a shred of doubt that you are simply arguing out of spite, and arguing to argue.
    Talking about arguing to spite, it is amazing seeing an Arab Christian type "Allah" with a small "a". Not that he doesn't call God "Allah", but since he is addressing a Muslim, therefore, to him, there must be "allahs" differentiated by capitalization. And that is not arguing to spite and not silly at all. :lol:

    And who's saying God can't do anything? When you say God can do anything, it is from the notion of being powerful or manifesting something powerful and not from the notion of stupidity and being foolish.

    Can God become a goat based on Christian belief? You should answer chooses

    your argument as a moslem should be that God wouldn't do that, not that God cannot do that. in your islamic perspective that would fit with the image of allah and with the notion that the purpose of creation is simply to "worship" allah in the islamic sense. we subscribe to a different notion, that creation is an act of Love, a notion that makes it quite plausible that God would incarnate, walk with us, set the example, and make Himself known.

    it is funny how we can easily wrap our mind around the islamic notions, yet it seems next to impossible for you to be able to do that. you know why that is? because if you are under the impression that everything you subscribe to might crumble if you even concede any little thing that is not completely conform with your indoctrination.

    Christians adopt a completely different approach, explore, postulate, think, examine the alternatives, and then test your truth against all of that.
    Love is a byproduct of something greater and that is a state of being merciful. You cannot be loving if you lack mercy. Have you ever thought of that? And the Islamic concept of creation and God sustaining it, not always judging, to à large extent, rebellious creatures is based on mercy.

    You always run away from explaining your concepts by pointing out what Islam says or what the other person must be thinking. Are you a wizard or an oracle? Can't you make a convincing explanation to clarify your doctrines without pointing out what someone else believes or you imagine he must be thinking? Do you live in people's minds? Or are you that limited in thought?

    The purpose given to man for his creation or being is worship. The reason God would make us and sustain us is His mercy, from which love emanates. That's why we emphasize the mercy of God and every chapter of the Quran starts with "in the name of God most merciful, most gracious". Thus, love is a substrate of mercy.

    Jesus was fully human and fully divine, He presented an example for mankind to follow by living it, in addition to the fact that prayer means something completely different in Christianity, it is a communication with God, and that is at the heart of the Trinity, the very meaning of the word to worship is have your mouth close enough to the other person's mouth to breathe the other person's breath.

    here we are, we have explained why Jesus was praying a hundreds of times, and yet you reject our explanation, despite it fitting perfectly well with the overall Christian perspective.

    the real question here is why would you keep doing that?
    I still haven't seen your explanation why a supposed God would pray to himself or to another person and ask Him or himself for certain wishes to come to pass. A semi god or a lesser god? Please tell me what is the explanation. I have never seen it. Maybe you mistake me for someone else. I cannot even imagine that in 2019 we are still debating if a man was god.

    The problem, really, about Christian doctrines is not simply God praying to Himself, even though that is silly to imagine. It isn't even about the question whether God can become or would become man or anything He chooses. The problem here is deeper and has to do with so much contradictory doctrines and beliefs that would need padlocking one's brain to accept them all as belonging to the same faith and reconciling them. So in all of this, how do you package a dying god on the cross? It all becomes a "make up" or deceptive affair trying to understand them and reconcile them without admitting to contradiction.

    in particular when on the other you think that it is very normal for God to pray on the prophet and act as if the arabic language does not have synonyms for "blessed".
    Please what are the synonyms for "blessed" in Arabic? And what is the root word for "blessed"?

    Also, we say Allahumma Salle 3ala, and not 2ela. That means, if we are to take it literal and use your translation, "pray upon" and not "pray to". Different things entirely and quite stupid to imagine an Arabic speaker would raise such objection.

    But in case you insist that we are asking God to pray to Himself for Muhammad (s), I am willing to concede that both Christians and Muslims are both mad or stupid regarding such, i.e. God praying to himself. I am willing to renounce such belief about God praying to Himself, if you would do likewise and agree that it is stupid to say "Jesus was god and was praying to himself".

    Mat 6:
    7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

    and you are wrong. the bible asserts that every form of thought or action is a prayer, and a bonus to establish my idea from before about testing for truth.
    1 th 5:
    16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. 19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

    and you can hear out what priests say about that for a change in Sunday service, you can start that from (3:09) though i advise you to listen to the bible passage as well.

    So what is "vain repetition" and what is "praying without ceasing" is just a matter of your perspective. Therefore except one be Christian, to you, all the praying without ceasing that other religions do becomes "vain repetitions". That is understood.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    Was it a transformation, a transfiguration, or a manifestation? All these mean different things?
    .
    @Dark Angel

    I asked you the above simple question. Instead of telling me which of the three and explaining why, you ended up dribbling your way with a long epistle that didn't touch on the question. I'm waiting for a direct answer to my above question. Thanks in anticipation.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    So what is "vain repetition" and what is "praying without ceasing" is just a matter of your perspective. Therefore except one be Christian, to you, all the praying without ceasing that other religions do becomes "vain repetitions". That is understood.
    why don't you share with us the definition of the term "prayer" and "praying" in islam when an individual prays to allah?
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    @Rachel Corrie what do you find so funny? what is it that you mean when you say pray to allah? what is the definition of prayer in islam, and please answer with references and links to your sources.

    we cannot proceed in a subject about prayer until you understand the differences between what you mean when you say "pray" and what we mean when we say "pray". if you think that much is funny then you should not be involved in ANY religious discussions.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    @Rachel Corrie what do you find so funny? what is it that you mean when you say pray to allah? what is the definition of prayer in islam, and please answer with references and links to your sources.

    we cannot proceed in a subject about prayer until you understand the differences between what you mean when you say "pray" and what we mean when we say "pray". if you think that much is funny then you should not be involved in ANY religious discussions.
    I'm amused at how desperate you are at trying to change the subject of our discussion. You've abandoned the questions I earlier asked you to end up posing new question(s).
     
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