Ashura thread - To commomerotate the great Imam Hussein (AS)

  • Thread starter 𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼
  • Start date
Dark Angel

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
I'm amused at how desperate you are at trying to change the subject of our discussion. You've abandoned the questions I earlier asked you to end up posing new question(s).
these games do not work with me. i will have to answer this on issue for you as well it seems.

i have looked very hard for islamic sources that define what it is to pray, it is a mechanical process, with body postures and mechanism, on specific times of the day. this is the ritual that you call praying. if you have another definition share it with us.

this is very different from what we infer when we mean pray, to us praying is an act of communication with the Divine, it is an ongoing conversation with the divine, it is an act of listening, an act of observing and contemplating. it is not simply us praying to God, but it is more importantly about God addressing us, it is a two way street.

thus it becomes more than obvious that you cannot use the same word "prayer" and "praying" to abstract two extremely different notions. once you recognize these differences we can proceed.

and here is the official source to back it.

and for the record i have the answer to your previous post saved and ready, i just will not post it until you prove you are capable of a minimum level of understanding and objectivity.

1568660229717.png
 
  • Advertisement
  • Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    these games do not work with me. i will have to answer this on issue for you as well it seems.

    i have looked very hard for islamic sources that define what it is to pray, it is a mechanical process, with body postures and mechanism, on specific times of the day. this is the ritual that you call praying. if you have another definition share it with us.

    this is very different from what we infer when we mean pray, to us praying is an act of communication with the Divine, it is an ongoing conversation with the divine, it is an act of listening, an act of observing and contemplating. it is not simply us praying to God, but it is more importantly about God addressing us, it is a two way street.

    thus it becomes more than obvious that you cannot use the same word "prayer" and "praying" to abstract two extremely different notions. once you recognize these differences we can proceed.

    and here is the official source to back it.

    and for the record i have the answer to your previous post saved and ready, i just will not post it until you prove you are capable of a minimum level of understanding and objectivity.

    View attachment 13446
    In Islam praying (salat) is a specific act. It is well defined to the details. What you belittle as "mechanical" is actually a value of what you lack in Christianity. If I ask ten different Christians from ten different denominations the question of "how do you pray"... I will get ten or maybe more different answers!!! It is either you weren't taught or you were specifically taught and you have ignored or disregarded it.

    What you are widening and calling communication, listening, contemplation etc. is the wider definition of worship (ibadah). In the Qur'an, we are commanded repeatedly and separately to do ibadah and also, to do salat. God can be worshipped in many ways. Even typing this response can be described as an act of worship. When we make dua (supplication), it is also an act of worship. Doing any good deed is an act of worship. Observing the five daily prayers and some other supplementary prayers are acts of worship. Prayer is part of worship but it is more specific. Talking to God while walking in a lonely field is worship. Contemplating, meditation, reflection and talking to God are all acts of worship and all these acts are recommended islamically.

    So you have not reinvented the wheel. You're just ignorant about Islam.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    In Islam praying (salat) is a specific act. It is well defined to the details. What you belittle as "mechanical" is actually a value of what you lack in Christianity. If I ask ten different Christians from ten different denominations the question of "how do you pray"... I will get ten or maybe more different answers!!! It is either you weren't taught or you were specifically taught and you have ignored or disregarded it.

    What you are widening and calling communication, listening, contemplation etc. is the wider definition of worship (ibadah). In the Qur'an, we are commanded repeatedly and separately to do ibadah and also, to do salat. God can be worshipped in many ways. Even typing this response can be described as an act of worship. When we make dua (supplication), it is also an act of worship. Doing any good deed is an act of worship. Observing the five daily prayers and some other supplementary prayers are acts of worship. Prayer is part of worship but it is more specific. Talking to God while walking in a lonely field is worship. Contemplating, meditation, reflection and talking to God are all acts of worship and all these acts are recommended islamically.

    So you have not reinvented the wheel. You're just ignorant about Islam.
    despite your insults, you have come to the agreement and admitted that you use the word "prayer" to indicate a completely different notion from what Christians mean when they use that same word. you are programmed to think that prayer is a well defined act defined to the details, as it is precisely defined in islam (which makes it a very mechanical act of following the definition even if you do not like it).

    in addition neither 3ibada nor dou3a2, bare any resemblance to what Christians mean by praying.

    it follows that the question you ask about Jesus praying to His Father, is a rather mute and a disconnected one, because you ask it from your "precisely defined islamic perspective", while in Christianity prayer is a two way communication, it is perpetual, and it is at the very core of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    now, as far as you are concerned, you need to also realize that the same problematic also applies to the words "faith", "believing in prophets", "worship" and others. you use the same word to denote completely different meanings than what we uphold as Christians. and until these are also addressed and understood from your part, this will remain a meaningless discussion.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    now here is your promised reply.

    Talking about arguing to spite, it is amazing seeing an Arab Christian type "Allah" with a small "a". Not that he doesn't call God "Allah", but since he is addressing a Muslim, therefore, to him, there must be "allahs" differentiated by capitalization. And that is not arguing to spite and not silly at all. :lol:

    And who's saying God can't do anything? When you say God can do anything, it is from the notion of being powerful or manifesting something powerful and not from the notion of stupidity and being foolish.

    Can God become a goat based on Christian belief? You should answer chooses
    there is no escaping this one. the trap has been shut on you. There is nothing impossible to God. any honest person discussing truth openly and objectively would admit to that fact.

    you can however find that to be foolish, and you will not be the first to say or think that, the greeks thought it was foolish, and so did the jews, now 2000 years later, the greeks are long gone, and the jews are long diminished, and yet here we are.
    Love is a byproduct of something greater and that is a state of being merciful. You cannot be loving if you lack mercy. Have you ever thought of that? And the Islamic concept of creation and God sustaining it, not always judging, to à large extent, rebellious creatures is based on mercy.
    that is a clear indication that you are not philosophically adept. you have no clue what you are writing. in all philosophical and religious texts, mercy is an act of Love, not the other way around, and there is no way around that.

    but again, it is understandable, like always, why you make such statements, that is what is in your islamic toolbox, and you have to use it.
    You always run away from explaining your concepts by pointing out what Islam says or what the other person must be thinking. Are you a wizard or an oracle? Can't you make a convincing explanation to clarify your doctrines without pointing out what someone else believes or you imagine he must be thinking? Do you live in people's minds? Or are you that limited in thought?
    i do not bother explaining things to you anymore, i simply say enough to make things clear for other readers who might be willing to learn something new.
    The purpose given to man for his creation or being is worship. The reason God would make us and sustain us is His mercy, from which love emanates. That's why we emphasize the mercy of God and every chapter of the Quran starts with "in the name of God most merciful, most gracious". Thus, love is a substrate of mercy.
    as i have pointed earlier, it is understandable why you think that, and i have already addressed it. i have already pointed we do not subscribe to the notion of God creating the universe to be worshiped, and we find to be rationally lacking. we subscribe to a different notion and a different perspective, one that upholds that creation is an act of Love, and that has serious consequences.

    in addition, what you, and most muslems, do not know however is that every chapter of the quran starts with a basmallah that has been taken from its syriac origin without much understanding.
    يقول السريان الأنطاكيين أنهم استعملوا البسملة كدلالة على الثالوث الإلهي في المسيحية قبل الإسلام بحوالي ستمائة سنة، فكانوا ينطقونها هكذا:
    «بشم ألوهه رحمانو رحيمو»
    and that is in direct reference to The trinity.
    I still haven't seen your explanation why a supposed God would pray to himself or to another person and ask Him or himself for certain wishes to come to pass. A semi god or a lesser god? Please tell me what is the explanation. I have never seen it. Maybe you mistake me for someone else. I cannot even imagine that in 2019 we are still debating if a man was god.
    in all truth, i do not think you will be able to see it, despite it being present very clearly in the post you are replying to and in many other posts.
    The problem, really, about Christian doctrines is not simply God praying to Himself, even though that is silly to imagine. It isn't even about the question whether God can become or would become man or anything He chooses. The problem here is deeper and has to do with so much contradictory doctrines and beliefs that would need padlocking one's brain to accept them all as belonging to the same faith and reconciling them. So in all of this, how do you package a dying god on the cross? It all becomes a "make up" or deceptive affair trying to understand them and reconcile them without admitting to contradiction.
    it goes without saying that it is confusing to you, and from your perspective it makes no sense at all, but that is very normal to every subject of which on does not possess the appropriate knowledge. to a peasant, mathematics might be useless and a waste of time because it neither milks the goats nor does it grow the wheat nor can it be eaten and nor can it be sold. and to a mathematician a bag of fertilizers would be a source of nuisance. but when that peasant learns mathematics, and when that mathematician practices some gardening, then things will fall into place.

    Please what are the synonyms for "blessed" in Arabic? And what is the root word for "blessed"?'
    moubarak, youbarek, baraka.

    Also, we say Allahumma Salle 3ala, and not 2ela. That means, if we are to take it literal and use your translation, "pray upon" and not "pray to". Different things entirely and quite stupid to imagine an Arabic speaker would raise such objection.

    But in case you insist that we are asking God to pray to Himself for Muhammad (s), I am willing to concede that both Christians and Muslims are both mad or stupid regarding such, i.e. God praying to himself. I am willing to renounce such belief about God praying to Himself, if you would do likewise and agree that it is stupid to say "Jesus was god and was praying to himself".
    it not only makes sense but it is also enriching from a Christian perspective. the relationship between The Father and Jesus is the most remarkable there is. we understand it and embrace it, you do not have to.

    So what is "vain repetition" and what is "praying without ceasing" is just a matter of your perspective. Therefore except one be Christian, to you, all the praying without ceasing that other religions do becomes "vain repetitions". That is understood.
    you are falling victim to the abstractions again.
     
    Last edited:
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    and for the record i have the answer to your previous post saved and ready, i just will not post it until you prove you are capable of a minimum level of understanding and objectivity.

    View attachment 13446
    Cool man, you type your Rachello's replies in the Ten Commandments Prompt?

    Rachie, enough nice guy, go for the Power shell against Angie. An eye for eye, a shell for a prompt.. Thus spoke the scriptures.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    "Violently confronting one's enemies" and self defense are two different things. Jesus and his followers were people of little means. Why do you ignore the historical fact that the early Roman Empire which adopted Christianity used force to eliminate smaller "heretical" sects that did not adopt mainstream and uniform doctrines designed by the early church fathers? Once the means became available and there was growth in strength through utilizing state power, the "meek and gentle" acted in Takfiri fashion to eliminate smaller groups with what it saw as "heretical beliefs".
    the actual and relevant fact here is that Christianity was already on the map, deeply rooted and expanding exponentially with 'people of little means', long before and without being adopted by any state, empire or any other 'worldly power', all while still being the subject of extreme persecution

    what does that mean to any observer with a minimum of two neurons and a good intention and who may not have even actually read the Christian scriptures? it means that the way of war and violence, even in the face of persecution, isn't part of this religion and its founder, or isn't essential to it, thereby further corroborating, besides Christianity's source text itself, the invalidity of your (crackpot) narrative
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    despite your insults, you have come to the agreement and admitted that you use the word "prayer" to indicate a completely different notion from what Christians mean when they use that same word. you are programmed to think that prayer is a well defined act defined to the details, as it is precisely defined in islam (which makes it a very mechanical act of following the definition even if you do not like it).

    in addition neither 3ibada nor dou3a2, bare any resemblance to what Christians mean by praying.

    it follows that the question you ask about Jesus praying to His Father, is a rather mute and a disconnected one, because you ask it from your "precisely defined islamic perspective", while in Christianity prayer is a two way communication, it is perpetual, and it is at the very core of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    now, as far as you are concerned, you need to also realize that the same problematic also applies to the words "faith", "believing in prophets", "worship" and others. you use the same word to denote completely different meanings than what we uphold as Christians. and until these are also addressed and understood from your part, this will remain a meaningless discussion.
    I have told you what prayer means and what worship means in clear terms.

    Your loose definition of what prayer is is not my problem. I am not even interested in what you believe prayer should be like because I already know. Some of you sing, some chant, some dance, some kneel, some close their eyes, some stand up, some speak in tongues etc. As if prayer in Christianity is some rocket science.

    By the way, Jesus prayed in a similar like we Muslims do. You can check YouTube for how do the Jews pray. Also, you can check your NT and see verses where Jesus is described to have prayed and knelt and "fell on his face" in reverence and calling on a higher authority to hear him and fulfill his desires, like in the garden of Gethsemane. All the kneeling and falling on his face Jesus performed, you Christians in your million and one denominations do not even imitate. And you are even boasting about how you pray as some superior mode. Who gave it to you or where did you get it from? If you do not follow how Jesus prayed, then you're a confused lot. We follow how our Prophet taught us. You should follow how Jesus prayed too. You should kneel and fall on your face for the Father and worship and revere and ask the Father to grant your wishes and desires like Jesus did. Not worship Jesus, not the holy spirit...because Jesus didn't do that.

    Further, when we talk of prayer, it became defined and specific with the revelations the Prophet received. We don't discount the fact that there are other ways of prayers and worship. We also dont deny that other religions pray in their own ways. For you to pick on the fact that different religions have different ways of praying is an evident tactic to run from the subject we are discussing. It really makes no sense because when Jesus was praying to God in the garden of Gethsemane, for example, he was doing that by doing sujud, similar to what Muslims do when we fall on our face. I really don't know what's even your point for raising the question of prayers and its different forms. It is in a bid to sound perhaps superior or extra ordinary, but you are rather silly because as I said, Christian prayers (in all the different forms among the different denominations) is no rocket science. The way some Christians even pray (like speaking in tongues and even dancing pentecostals do) appears lunatic. And some poor soul is coming here to tell us he has a magical definition of prayers in Christianity. Regardless, Jesus prayed in the form of worship and obedience to God by falling on his face and crying in reverence and pleadinf for his wishes to be granted. Even the mere fact of a so called god talking to another God is ridiculous for whatever reason or in whatever way.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    I have told you what prayer means and what worship means in clear terms.

    Your loose definition of what prayer is is not my problem. I am not even interested in what you believe prayer should be like because I already know. Some of you sing, some chant, some dance, some kneel, some close their eyes, some stand up, some speak in tongues etc. As if prayer in Christianity is some rocket science.

    By the way, Jesus prayed in a similar like we Muslims do. You can check YouTube for how do the Jews pray. Also, you can check your NT and see verses where Jesus is described to have prayed and knelt and "fell on his face" in reverence and calling on a higher authority to hear him and fulfill his desires, like in the garden of Gethsemane. All the kneeling and falling on his face Jesus performed, you Christians in your million and one denominations do not even imitate. And you are even boasting about how you pray as some superior mode. Who gave it to you or where did you get it from? If you do not follow how Jesus prayed, then you're a confused lot. We follow how our Prophet taught us. You should follow how Jesus prayed too. You should kneel and fall on your face for the Father and worship and revere and ask the Father to grant your wishes and desires like Jesus did. Not worship Jesus, not the holy spirit...because Jesus didn't do that.

    Further, when we talk of prayer, it became defined and specific with the revelations the Prophet received. We don't discount the fact that there are other ways of prayers and worship. We also dont deny that other religions pray in their own ways. For you to pick on the fact that different religions have different ways of praying is an evident tactic to run from the subject we are discussing. It really makes no sense because when Jesus was praying to God in the garden of Gethsemane, for example, he was doing that by doing sujud, similar to what Muslims do when we fall on our face. I really don't know what's even your point for raising the question of prayers and its different forms. It is in a bid to sound perhaps superior or extra ordinary, but you are rather silly because as I said, Christian prayers (in all the different forms among the different denominations) is no rocket science. The way some Christians even pray (like speaking in tongues and even dancing pentecostals do) appears lunatic. And some poor soul is coming here to tell us he has a magical definition of prayers in Christianity. Regardless, Jesus prayed in the form of worship and obedience to God by falling on his face and crying in reverence and pleadinf for his wishes to be granted. Even the mere fact of a so called god talking to another God is ridiculous for whatever reason or in whatever way.
    You are a tool that still doesn't understand our faith.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    @Rachel Corrie , what does it mean that Christianity established itself and grew in the face of persecution without using and inflicting bloodshed and death on its enemies (that is even in self-defense)? what implication do you think this has on your narrative 'that Jesus would have wanted to defend himself and impose his message by the sword but didn't have the means to do so'? how do you explain away this damning fact in your mind? curious to know
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    @Rachel Corrie , what does it mean that Christianity established itself and grew in the face of persecution without using and inflicting bloodshed and death on its enemies (that is even in self-defense)? what implication do you think this has on your narrative 'that Jesus would have wanted to defend himself and impose his message by the sword but didn't have the means to do so'? how do you explain away this damning fact in your mind? curious to know
    Christianity grew in the face of persecution because your persecutors adopted the faith through the account of a Roman ruler who claimed to have seen a light in the shape of the cross in the sky (a meteorite explosion) and then converted. That is no proof of being peaceful or relegating self defense as a right. If you had the power to defend yourself and you submit instead, then you can have something to claim on that. When the Roman empire adopted Christianity and your early church fathers had some power, you became the persecutors against your fellow Christians of small sects who held contrary doctrines to the mainstream adopted by the authorities. Your early church fathers became takfiri Christian Dawa3esh against Christians of other sects you refer to as heretics or gnostics.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I have told you what prayer means and what worship means in clear terms.

    Your loose definition of what prayer is is not my problem. I am not even interested in what you believe prayer should be like because I already know. Some of you sing, some chant, some dance, some kneel, some close their eyes, some stand up, some speak in tongues etc. As if prayer in Christianity is some rocket science.
    you are not interested in knowing? then why are you arguing for pages upon pages and asking hundreds of questions and raising hundreds of issues? if you are not motivated by knowledge what is it that is motivating you then?

    normal people are interested in knowing and learning. and given your extensive record, it is only that you do not know, it is rather that you intentionally subscribe to false notions about others because it caters to your obvious inferiority complex. and this may very well be the reason why you tend to reject the truth about that which you do not know and insist on caricaturing and maiming it.

    By the way, Jesus prayed in a similar like we Muslims do. You can check YouTube for how do the Jews pray. Also, you can check your NT and see verses where Jesus is described to have prayed and knelt and "fell on his face" in reverence and calling on a higher authority to hear him and fulfill his desires, like in the garden of Gethsemane. All the kneeling and falling on his face Jesus performed, you Christians in your million and one denominations do not even imitate. And you are even boasting about how you pray as some superior mode. Who gave it to you or where did you get it from? If you do not follow how Jesus prayed, then you're a confused lot. We follow how our Prophet taught us. You should follow how Jesus prayed too. You should kneel and fall on your face for the Father and worship and revere and ask the Father to grant your wishes and desires like Jesus did. Not worship Jesus, not the holy spirit...because Jesus didn't do that.
    dont you think you should stick to telling us how muhammad and the sahaba prayed? we will not argue with you on that. but leave up to us to explain how Jesus prayed. there are more than 20 instances and references in the new testament about Jesus praying, yet you only hickup on that particular one because it suites your agenda, ignoring all the other instances. that is neither objective nor smart.

    Further, when we talk of prayer, it became defined and specific with the revelations the Prophet received. We don't discount the fact that there are other ways of prayers and worship. We also dont deny that other religions pray in their own ways. For you to pick on the fact that different religions have different ways of praying is an evident tactic to run from the subject we are discussing. It really makes no sense because when Jesus was praying to God in the garden of Gethsemane, for example, he was doing that by doing sujud, similar to what Muslims do when we fall on our face. I really don't know what's even your point for raising the question of prayers and its different forms. It is in a bid to sound perhaps superior or extra ordinary, but you are rather silly because as I said, Christian prayers (in all the different forms among the different denominations) is no rocket science. The way some Christians even pray (like speaking in tongues and even dancing pentecostals do) appears lunatic. And some poor soul is coming here to tell us he has a magical definition of prayers in Christianity. Regardless, Jesus prayed in the form of worship and obedience to God by falling on his face and crying in reverence and pleadinf for his wishes to be granted. Even the mere fact of a so called god talking to another God is ridiculous for whatever reason or in whatever way.
    no, the point is that you use the word prayer to mean something else. when we pray it is a two way communication, we speak to God and we Listen to Him, it is not a one way service or worship as the notion you yourself subscribe to. so when Jesus prays, God is talking to Him as well. that is the nature of the Trinity. so the very question of how can Jesus pray to God and be God at the same time, is only valid from the strict definition of the islamic meaning for the word prayer. any normal person should at least be able to understand that much without even going into the fully Divine and fully human nature of Christ.

    so why can't you? that is the interesting and the revealing question if you ask me.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    you are not interested in knowing because rassak msakkar. normal people are interested in knowing and learning. and given your extensive record, it is only that you do not know, it is rather that you intentionally subscribe to false notions about others because it caters to your obvious inferiority complex. and this may very well be the reason why you tend to reject the truth about that which you do not know and insist on caricaturing and maiming it.


    dont you think you should stick to telling us how muhammad and the sahaba prayed? we will not argue with you on that. but leave up to us to explain how Jesus prayed. there are more than 20 instances and references in the new testament about Jesus praying, yet you only hickup on that particular one because it suites your agenda, ignoring all the other instances. that is neither objective nor smart.


    no, the point is that you use the word prayer to mean something else. when we pray it is a two way communication, we speak to God and we Listen to Him, it is not a one way service or worship as the notion you yourself subscribe to. so when Jesus prays, God is talking to Him as well. that is the nature of the Trinity. so the very question of how can Jesus pray to God and be God at the same time, is only valid from the strict definition of the islamic meaning for the word prayer. any normal person should at least be able to understand that much without even going into the fully Divine and fully human nature of Christ.

    so why can't you? that is the interesting and the revealing question if you ask me.
    So you mean to tell me God speaks to you?
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    Christianity grew in the face of persecution because your persecutors adopted the faith through the account of a Roman ruler who claimed to have seen a light in the shape of the cross in the sky (a meteorite explosion) and then converted. That is no proof of being peaceful or relegating self defense as a right. If you had the power to defend yourself and you submit instead, then you can have something to claim on that. When the Roman empire adopted Christianity and your early church fathers had some power, you became the persecutors against your fellow Christians of small sects who held contrary doctrines to the mainstream adopted by the authorities. Your early church fathers became takfiri Christian Dawa3esh against Christians of other sects you refer to as heretics or gnostics.
    you are evading and thus failing to address the fact that Christianity was already established and exponentially growing and expanding despite and right through the persecution, by being persecuted, and by not resisting persecution, all the way across the roman empire and outside it (the known world back then), and this was during the first three+ centuries yaane without and before any use or adoption of any 'wordly power' whatsoever. how do you factor that with your narrative?
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    you are evading and thus failing to address the fact that Christianity was already established and exponentially growing and expanding despite and right through the persecution, by being persecuted, and by not resisting persecution, all the way across the roman empire and outside it (the known world back then), and this was during the first three+ centuries yaane without and before any use or adoption of any 'wordly power' whatsoever. how do you factor that with your narrative?
    And what exactly is your point? Each and every religion has this reality. Islam spread in southeast Asia peacefully. And so what? Does it mean Islam is a pacifist religion? No! Whether your religion holds self defense sacred cannot be judged as at the time you had no power or means to defend yourself or resist oppression and to judge your oppressors, but as at the time you have the sufficient power to defend yourself. For 13 years in Makkah under persecution, the Prophet did not even defend himself because he didn't have the means. Even when he was stoned and assaulted, he didn't fight back. Yet, he was steadily growing a following.

    You're not making any point.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    And what exactly is your point? Each and every religion has this reality. Islam spread in southeast Asia peacefully. And so what? Does it mean Islam is a pacifist religion? No! Whether your religion holds self defense sacred cannot be judged as at the time you had no power or means to defend yourself or resist oppression and to judge your oppressors, but as at the time you have the sufficient power to defend yourself. For 13 years in Makkah under persecution, the Prophet did not even defend himself because he didn't have the means. Even when he was stoned and assaulted, he didn't fight back. Yet, he was steadily growing a following.

    You're not making any point.
    you're really still not seeing the point, eh? if being persecuted and killed goes contrary to the promises and purpose (or essence) of a certain religion, then one would reasonable expect this religion to dwindle and disappear if its adherents are constantly being persecuted and killed (let alone its founders and leaders, and this for one century after the other) and certainly not grow in numbers and expand the more they are persecuted and killed, as was the case with Christianity in the first three+ centuries, making the point that being persecuted and killed even without resisting, for the sake of one's message or truth, is at the heart of Christianity (its founder)

    conversely, had muhammad been defeated and killed, or had he not won back against his persecutors and enemies after he had gathered the means for that during his 'peaceful time', wouldn't you reasonably believe that his small gathering of followers would have dwindled and disappeared, since by your admission this would have gone against the nature of his message and the corresponding claims he spouted?
     
    Last edited:
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    you're really still not seeing the point, eh? if being persecuted and killed goes contrary to the promises and purpose (or essence) of a certain religion, then one would reasonable expect this religion to dwindle and disappear if its adherents are constantly being persecuted and killed (let alone its founders and leaders, and this for one century after the other) and certainly not grow in numbers and expand the more they are persecuted and killed, as was the case with Christianity in the first three+ centuries, making the point that being persecuted and killed even without resisting, for the sake of one's message or truth, is at the heart of Christianity (its founder)

    conversely, had muhammad been defeated and killed, or had he not won back against his persecutors and enemies after he had gathered the means for that during his 'peaceful time', wouldn't you reasonably believe that his small gathering of followers would have dwindled and disappeared, since by your admission this would have gone against the nature of his message and the corresponding claims he spouted?
    The Shia have been persecuted for over 1000 years, they didn't turn back on their faith. I dont know why you think is this special to early Christians who were a small group and existed underground to escape persecution until the ruler adopted their faith and imposed it.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Christianity grew in the face of persecution because your persecutors adopted the faith through the account of a Roman ruler who claimed to have seen a light in the shape of the cross in the sky (a meteorite explosion) and then converted. That is no proof of being peaceful or relegating self defense as a right. If you had the power to defend yourself and you submit instead, then you can have something to claim on that. When the Roman empire adopted Christianity and your early church fathers had some power, you became the persecutors against your fellow Christians of small sects who held contrary doctrines to the mainstream adopted by the authorities. Your early church fathers became takfiri Christian Dawa3esh against Christians of other sects you refer to as heretics or gnostics.
    The Shia have been persecuted for over 1000 years, they didn't turn back on their faith. I dont know why you think is this special to early Christians who were a small group and existed underground to escape persecution until the ruler adopted their faith and imposed it.
    Christianity was spread throughout the empire 3 centuries before Constantine ended the persecution. for three centuries people were converting knowing very well that they might be killed for it, and it was growing and spreading despite it all.

    shiites on the other hand were persecuted by other moslems, not over issues of faith, but rather over a political divide. regardless, islam grew only through conquest and wars with extremely few exceptions, a tradition that was started by the prophet of islam himself, otherwise there would have been no islam today. islam did not spread through the power of conviction, it actually possesses none, even today moslems still rely on high birth rates to change demographics, whereas Christianity is spreading in africa, south-eastern asia, and even in the islamic world in underground churches.
     
    Top