Because we want elections...

Nayla

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Because we refuse to remember april 13 as another black day in Lebanon's history
Because we are fed up
Because the expiry date of the deputies was 4 years ago
Because we should lock them inside the parliament until they agree on a new electoral law
Because we want to save our country, or what is left..
For these reasons and many others, we should demonstrate this Thursday, april 13 in front of them and force them to finish their duty or go home without their terrific salaries.

 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I haven't been following this topic too closely...but isn't a bad new election law worse than no new election law?

Is there an adequate new law that is agreed upon by all, and that upholds the 50 / 50 power sharing agreement between Christians and Muslims, and does not turn elections / democracy into demographic warfare?
 

Jo

Administrator
Master Penguin
I haven't been following this topic too closely...but isn't a bad new election law worse than no new election law?

Is there an adequate new law that is agreed upon by all, and that upholds the 50 / 50 power sharing agreement between Christians and Muslims, and does not turn elections / democracy into demographic warfare?
From my point of view (not the one of Tayyar) doing an election is something sacred... hence Keep our democracy alive | The Orange Room - Lebanon's number one discussion forums
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Because we want to hold our MPs accountable.
It is time for all to go down and strike. Everything should be closed. This country was built on freedom and equality.

The MPs date expired ages ago. We the people want to place most of them in the garbage. It is time for the people to go down. Enough is Enough ba2a...

Close the Parliament and leave them in there. That bastard Berri who has been in power since the 80s. That snake. We want accountability.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Guys...I'm not arguing against an election. I'm asking if it's not preferable to go to elections with whatever law is currently there, rather than insist on a new law at all cost, even if this new law is worse than the old one (and then be stuck with it for who knows how long)...
 

LiNk

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I haven't been following this topic too closely...but isn't a bad new election law worse than no new election law?

Is there an adequate new law that is agreed upon by all, and that upholds the 50 / 50 power sharing agreement between Christians and Muslims, and does not turn elections / democracy into demographic warfare?

Hi Indie. Sharing some thoughts.

Since Taef, Muslim parties such as FM, PSP, and Amal have been consistently controlling a clear majority in parliament. Any law upholding the 50/50 rule such as the Orthodox Law would represent a substantial loss of control. It would be logical for them not to have any interest in taking that risk.

On the other hand, Hezbollah is also unwilling to support such a truly representative law today, as with the newly founded LF-FPM alliance, true Christian representation would likely increase LF's parliamentary power versus Hezbollah's traditional Christian allies besides FPM (e.g. SSNP, Frangieh). Many signs are showing that the battle around the electoral law is a battle for either reshaping or maintaining the configuration of power at least for the upcoming decade. Especially if thinking about the post-Aoun era.

Unfortunately or not, this country's system is built on a sectarian basis, and by nature, all handling is sectarian. The irony is that these mainstream parties attacking the Orthodox Law are very probably doing so on a sectarian basis. For the future, Christians controlling 50% of parliament is a volatile reality Muslim parties would do their best to avoid.

Christian leaders are meanwhile often being grayish in their speech and aren't always being blunt by saying clearly what their fight is about. What is forcing lots of political correctness is certainly the complex web of alliances both major Christian parties have been constructing over the past few years. And this is obviously having a negative impact on their perceived transparency, credibility and marketing appeal.

It's a very challenging game of political survival being played, the second side of the presidential election coin. But I believe most parties still have lots of cards to play.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Hi Indie. Sharing some thoughts.

Since Taef, Muslim parties such as FM, PSP, and Amal have been consistently controlling a clear majority in parliament. Any law upholding the 50/50 rule such as the Orthodox Law would represent a substantial loss of control. It would be logical for them not to have any interest in taking that risk.

On the other hand, Hezbollah is also unwilling to support such a truly representative law today, as with the newly founded LF-FPM alliance, true Christian representation would likely increase LF's parliamentary power versus Hezbollah's traditional Christian allies besides FPM (e.g. SSNP, Frangieh). Many signs are showing that the battle around the electoral law is a battle for either reshaping or maintaining the configuration of power at least for the upcoming decade. Especially if thinking about the post-Aoun era.

Unfortunately or not, this country's system is built on a sectarian basis, and by nature, all handling is sectarian. The irony is that these mainstream parties attacking the Orthodox Law are very probably doing so on a sectarian basis. For the future, Christians controlling 50% of parliament is a volatile reality Muslim parties would do their best to avoid.

Christian leaders are meanwhile often being grayish in their speech and aren't always being blunt by saying clearly what their fight is about. What is forcing lots of political correctness is certainly the complex web of alliances both major Christian parties have been constructing over the past few years. And this is obviously having a negative impact on their perceived transparency, credibility and marketing appeal.

It's a very challenging game of political survival being played, the second side of the presidential election coin. But I believe most parties still have lots of cards to play.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply :)

It is of absolute importance that Christian politicians don't set a precedent from which it would be difficult to backtrack in the future.

I don't trust words like "proportional representation" and "secularism" in this region.

Christians keeping 50% of power is their only hope for survival in Lebanon. Hopefully, the Christian representatives don't sell out for the sake of political correctness.

Also, if it is correct that Bassil is opposing election laws that are risky for Christians, people need to support him, despite their feelings towards him.
 

Muwatin Libnani

Well-Known Member
Also, if it is correct that Bassil is opposing election laws that are risky for Christians, people need to support him, despite their feelings towards him.

I'm not sure what's being cooked behind the scene but I wanna play the devil's advocate and ask: is Bassil opposing election laws that are risky for Christians or risky for dominant Christian parties?

I read that FPM and LF are against any laws that would allow the proper representation of other smaller Christian parties? If true, does Bassil have the right to formulate an electoral law that alienate them?

I think the real issue here may not be the Christian rights per se but which Christian ideology and parliamentary block should control the next presidential elections
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I'm not sure what's being cooked behind the scene but I wanna play the devil's advocate and ask: is Bassil opposing election laws that are risky for Christians or risky for dominant Christian parties?

I read that FPM and LF are against any laws that would allow the proper representation of other smaller Christian parties? If true, does Bassil have the right to formulate an electoral law that alienate them?

I think the real issue here may not be the Christian rights per se but which Christian ideology and parliamentary block should control the next presidential elections

Well...I don't know either...this whole election thing is very confusing.

In my opinion, if Christians can maintain 50% of power while allowing smaller parties some representation, that would be great. Otherwise, maintaining 50% of power takes precedence over the representation of small parties.

Intra-Christian divergences won't matter if the overall Christian future is threatened.
 

oldschool

Active Member
No law would give minority christians as many mps as the orthodox law.

The ssnp and marada and everyone would be represented to the fullest
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
No law would give minority christians as many mps as the orthodox law.

The ssnp and marada and everyone would be represented to the fullest

If the muslims dont want the mixed system you think they will support the orthodox law?
 

The Jade

Legendary Member
Guys...I'm not arguing against an election. I'm asking if it's not preferable to go to elections with whatever law is currently there, rather than insist on a new law at all cost, even if this new law is worse than the old one (and then be stuck with it for who knows how long)...
No one is disputing the fact that a good electoral law is better than a bad one.

The problem is that the government had more than 8 years to Devise this new law yet they were incapable of doing it.

It's like you were given a contract at work that you were supposed to finish in 2 days, yet it took you 6 months while your Boss is forced to pay and he can't even get you fired....

That's why people are protesting.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
No one is disputing the fact that a good electoral law is better than a bad one.

The problem is that the government had more than 8 years to Devise this new law yet they were incapable of doing it.

It's like you were given a contract at work that you were supposed to finish in 2 days, yet it took you 6 months while your Boss is forced to pay and he can't even get you fired....

That's why people are protesting.

I understand. I'm just worried that they end up adopting a bad law due to pressure, that we get stuck with it, and that it becomes even more difficult to get a good law in the future.
 

LiNk

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Thank you for your thoughtful reply :)

It is of absolute importance that Christian politicians don't set a precedent from which it would be difficult to backtrack in the future.

I don't trust words like "proportional representation" and "secularism" in this region.

Christians keeping 50% of power is their only hope for survival in Lebanon. Hopefully, the Christian representatives don't sell out for the sake of political correctness.

Also, if it is correct that Bassil is opposing election laws that are risky for Christians, people need to support him, despite their feelings towards him.

Thank you too :)

In its essence, the Orthodox Law is still a proportional law, albeit confined within the boundaries of each religious community.

What I like about this law is both its simplicity and expressive power. It fully secures the religious power balance, and communities would be interacting at arm's length. But also, the way I see it and although it might sound slightly counter-intuitive, it is a true test - and a potential enabler - for each community's readiness to ultimately transition towards secularism.

Through proportionality, secular movements would be given the possibility to be represented from within the communities in which they are effectively present, and if successful in many, could bridge between those communities and finally achieve the true cross-community representative power they aspire to.

What is hampering our transition towards a progressive national political speech is partly the constant bickering about "true representation". The Orthodox Law would eliminate this once and for all.

You say that Christian parties should be more blunt. I don't think it's so easy. Being blunt risks losing the great common ground that they've worked so hard to achieve with their Muslim counterparts. It would be foolish for Christians to isolate themselves.

Yes, people should support Bassil as he's a top-notch negotiator and he's fighting for each and every Christian out there. FPM in general is just really really bad in marketing. But it's been like that since 2005, nothing new...
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Thank you too :)

In its essence, the Orthodox Law is still a proportional law, albeit confined within the boundaries of each religious community.

What I like about this law is both its simplicity and expressive power. It fully secures the religious power balance, and communities would be interacting at arm's length. But also, the way I see it and although it might sound slightly counter-intuitive, it is a true test - and a potential enabler - for each community's readiness to ultimately transition towards secularism.

Through proportionality, secular movements would be given the possibility to be represented from within the communities in which they are effectively present, and if successful in many, could bridge between those communities and finally achieve the true cross-community representative power they aspire to.

What is hampering our transition towards a progressive national political speech is partly the constant bickering about "true representation". The Orthodox Law would eliminate this once and for all.

You say that Christian parties should be more blunt. I don't think it's so easy. Being blunt risks losing the great common ground that they've worked so hard to achieve with their Muslim counterparts. It would be foolish for Christians to isolate themselves.

Yes, people should support Bassil as he's a top-notch negotiator and he's fighting for each and every Christian out there. FPM in general is just really really bad in marketing. But it's been like that since 2005, nothing new...

The specifics of the different laws are a mystery to me. No one has been able to explain them so far, despite my asking multiple times. It's nice to have some clarifications :)

Now, a little clarification of my own :p I did not mean that Christians should burn bridges between themselves and Muslims. Diplomacy should be maintained. However, they should not sell out for the sake of political correctness either.
 

LiNk

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
The specifics of the different laws are a mystery to me. No one has been able to explain them so far, despite my asking multiple times. It's nice to have some clarifications :)

Now, a little clarification of my own :p I did not mean that Christians should burn bridges between themselves and Muslims. Diplomacy should be maintained. However, they should not sell out for the sake of political correctness either.

A major problem is how most people start repeating what they hear in the media without thinking. At least you have the decency of asking for clarifications, and acknowledge their importance for formulating your opinion. That's a virtue ;)

I agree, they should not sell out. Let's see if they'll succeed in getting a better deal by raising pressure. People should stand behind them.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
All of this would have been settled in 2013 if it wasn't for certain parties that rejected the Orthodox Law at the last minute.
 

new hope

Member
All of this would have been settled in 2013 if it wasn't for certain parties that rejected the Orthodox Law at the last minute.

Do you still believe in that crap??? If they rejected bassil s law do you think they would have accepted orthodox ??

They have been playing us for ages - always silly excuse and on the other hand if their interest is touched they go straight away to the streets with cannons and rpg as we saw during the famous may 7 th
 

new hope

Member
I still don't understand why they don't call for the parliament to vote for a new law

We tried to find a consensual to please everybody and failed - what s the solution we keep on renewing the parliament or we vote for a new law ??
 

Chaos

Active Member
Here is the text of "Taef Agreement", why they don't apply it ?


ا4-لدائرة الانتخابية هي المحافظة.
5- إلى أن يضع مجلس النواب قانون انتخاب خارج القيد الطائفي، توزع المقاعد النيابية وفقاً للقواعد الآتية:
- بالتساوي بين المسيحيين والمسلمين.
- نسبياً بين طوائف كل من الفئتين.
- نسبياً بين المناطق.
6- يزداد عدد أعضاء مجلس النواب إلى (108) مناصفة بين المسيحيين والمسلمين. أما المراكز المستحدثة على أساس هذه الوثيقة، والمراكز التي شغرت قبل إعلانها، فتملأ بصورة استثنائية ولمرة واحدة بالتعيين من قبل حكومة الوفاق الوطني المزمع تشكيلها.
7- مع انتخاب أول مجلس نواب على أساس وطني غير طائفي يستحدث مجلس للشيوخ تتمثل فيه جميع العائلات الروحية وتنحصر صلاحياته في القضايا المصيرية.​



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