Catholic Church ⛪️ on the way of a schism between liberals and conservatives

Will the Church go to a schism

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EVANGELICAL FUNDAMENTALISM AND CATHOLIC INTEGRALISM: A SURPRISING ECUMENISM

Antonio Spadaro - Marcelo Figueroa*
13 luglio 2017
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In God We Trust. This phrase is printed on the banknotes of the United States of America and is the current national motto. It appeared for the first time on a coin in 1864 but did not become official until Congress passed a motion in 1956. A motto is important for a nation whose foundation was rooted in religious motivations. For many it is a simple declaration of faith. For others, it is the synthesis of a problematic fusion between religion and state, faith and politics, religious values and economy.
Religion, political Manichaeism and a cult of the apocalypse
Religion has had a more incisive role in electoral processes and government decisions over recent decades, especially in some US governments. It offers a moral role for identifying what is good and what is bad.
At times this mingling of politics, morals and religion has taken on a Manichaean language that divides reality between absolute Good and absolute Evil. In fact, after President George W. Bush spoke in his day about challenging the “axis of evil” and stated it was the USA’s duty to “free the world from evil” following the events of September 11, 2001. Today President Trump steers the fight against a wider, generic collective entity of the “bad” or even the “very bad.” Sometimes the tones used by his supporters in some campaigns take on meanings that we could define as “epic.”
These stances are based on Christian-Evangelical fundamentalist principles dating from the beginning of the 20th Century that have been gradually radicalized. These have moved on from a rejection of all that is mundane – as politics was considered – to bringing a strong and determined religious-moral influence to bear on democratic processes and their results.
The term “evangelical fundamentalist” can today be assimilated to the “evangelical right” or “theoconservatism” and has its origins in the years 1910-1915. In that period a South Californian millionaire, Lyman Stewart, published the 12-volume work The Fundamentals. The author wanted to respond to the threat of modernist ideas of the time. He summarized the thought of authors whose doctrinal support he appreciated. He exemplified the moral, social, collective and individual aspects of the evangelical faith. His admirers include many politicians and even two recent presidents: Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush.
The social-religious groups inspired by authors such as Stewart consider the United States to be a nation blessed by God. And they do not hesitate to base the economic growth of the country on a literal adherence to the Bible. Over more recent years this current of thought has been fed by the stigmatization of enemies who are often “demonized.”
The panorama of threats to their understanding of the American way of life have included modernist spirits, the black civil rights movement, the hippy movement, communism, feminist movements and so on. And now in our day there are the migrants and the Muslims. To maintain conflict levels, their biblical exegeses have evolved toward a decontextualized reading of the Old Testament texts about the conquering and defense of the “promised land,” rather than be guided by the incisive look, full of love, of Jesus in the Gospels.
Within this narrative, whatever pushes toward conflict is not off limits. It does not take into account the bond between capital and profits and arms sales. Quite the opposite, often war itself is assimilated to the heroic conquests of the “Lord of Hosts” of Gideon and David. In this Manichaean vision, belligerence can acquire a theological justification and there are pastors who seek a biblical foundation for it, using the scriptural texts out of context.
Another interesting aspect is the relationship with creation of these religious groups that are composed mainly of whites from the deep American South. There is a sort of “anesthetic” with regard to ecological disasters and problems generated by climate change. They profess “dominionism” and consider ecologists as people who are against the Christian faith. They place their own roots in a literalist understanding of the creation narratives of the book of Genesis that put humanity in a position of “dominion” over creation, while creation remains subject to human will in biblical submission.
In this theological vision, natural disasters, dramatic climate change and the global ecological crisis are not only not perceived as an alarm that should lead them to reconsider their dogmas, but they are seen as the complete opposite: signs that confirm their non-allegorical understanding of the final figures of the Book of Revelation and their apocalyptic hope in a “new heaven and a new earth.”
Theirs is a prophetic formula: fight the threats to American Christian values and prepare for the imminent justice of an Armageddon, a final showdown between Good and Evil, between God and Satan. In this sense, every process (be it of peace, dialogue, etc.) collapses before the needs of the end, the final battle against the enemy. And the community of believers (faith) becomes a community of combatants (fight). Such a unidirectional reading of the biblical texts can anesthetize consciences or actively support the most atrocious and dramatic portrayals of a world that is living beyond the frontiers of its own “promised land.”
Pastor Rousas John Rushdoony (1916-2001) is the father of so-called “Christian reconstructionism” (or “dominionist theology”) that had a great influence on the theopolitical vision of Christian fundamentalism. This is the doctrine that feeds political organizations and networks such as the Council for National Policy and the thoughts of their exponents such as Steve Bannon, currently chief strategist at the White House and supporter of an apocalyptic geopolitics.[1]
“The first thing we have to do is give a voice to our Churches,” some say. The real meaning of this type of expression is the desire for some influence in the political and parliamentary sphere and in the juridical and educational areas so that public norms can be subjected to religious morals.
Rushdoony’s doctrine maintains a theocratic necessity: submit the state to the Bible with a logic that is no different from the one that inspires Islamic fundamentalism. At heart, the narrative of terror shapes the world-views of jihadists and the new crusaders and is imbibed from wells that are not too far apart. We must not forget that the theopolitics spread by Isis is based on the same cult of an apocalypse that needs to be brought about as soon as possible. So, it is not just accidental that George W. Bush was seen as a “great crusader” by Osama bin Laden.
Theology of prosperity and the rhetoric of religious liberty
Together with political Manichaeism, another relevant phenomenon is the passage from original puritan pietism, as expressed in Max Weber’s The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, to the “Theology of Prosperity” that is mainly proposed in the media and by millionaire pastors and missionary organizations with strong religious, social and political influence. They proclaim a “Prosperity Gospel” for they believe God desires his followers to be physically healthy, materially rich and personally happy.
It is easy to note how some messages of the electoral campaign and their semiotics are full of references to evangelical fundamentalism. For example, we see political leaders appearing triumphant with a Bible in their hands.
Pastor Norman Vincent Peale (1898-1993) is an important figure who inspired US Presidents such as Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump. He officiated at the first wedding of the current president. He was a successful preacher. He sold millions of copies of his book The Power of Positive Thinking (1952) that is full of phrases such as “If you believe in something, you get it”, “Nothing will stop you if you keep repeating: God is with me, who is against me” or “Keep in mind your vision of success and success will come” and so on. Many prosperity prosperous televangelists mix marketing, strategic direction and preaching, concentrating more on personal success than on salvation or eternal life.
A third element, together with Manichaeism and the prosperity gospel, is a particular form of proclamation of the defense of “religious liberty.” The erosion of religious liberty is clearly a grave threat within a spreading secularism. But we must avoid its defense coming in the fundamentalist terms of a “religion in total freedom,” perceived as a direct virtual challenge to the secularity of the state.
Fundamentalist ecumenism
Appealing to the values of fundamentalism, a strange form of surprising ecumenism is developing between Evangelical fundamentalists and Catholic Integralists brought together by the same desire for religious influence in the political sphere.
Some who profess themselves to be Catholic express themselves in ways that until recently were unknown in their tradition and using tones much closer to Evangelicals. They are defined as value voters as far as attracting electoral mass support is concerned. There is a well-defined world of ecumenical convergence between sectors that are paradoxically competitors when it comes to confessional belonging. This meeting over shared objectives happens around such themes as abortion, same-sex marriage, religious education in schools and other matters generally considered moral or tied to values. Both Evangelical and Catholic Integralists condemn traditional ecumenism and yet promote an ecumenism of conflict that unites them in the nostalgic dream of a theocratic type of state.
However, the most dangerous prospect for this strange ecumenism is attributable to its xenophobic and Islamophobic vision that wants walls and purifying deportations. The word “ecumenism” transforms into a paradox, into an “ecumenism of hate.” Intolerance is a celestial mark of purism. Reductionism is the exegetical methodology. Ultra-literalism is its hermeneutical key.
Clearly there is an enormous difference between these concepts and the ecumenism employed by Pope Francis with various Christian bodies and other religious confessions. His is an ecumenism that moves under the urge of inclusion, peace, encounter and bridges. This presence of opposing ecumenisms – and their contrasting perceptions of the faith and visions of the world where religions have irreconcilable roles – is perhaps the least known and most dramatic aspect of the spread of Integralist fundamentalism. Here we can understand why the pontiff is so committed to working against “walls” and any kind of “war of religion.”
The temptation of “spiritual war”
The religious element should never be confused with the political one. Confusing spiritual power with temporal power means subjecting one to the other. An evident aspect of Pope Francis’ geopolitics rests in not giving theological room to the power to impose oneself or to find an internal or external enemy to fight. There is a need to flee the temptation to project divinity on political power that then uses it for its own ends. Francis empties from within the narrative of sectarian millenarianism and dominionism that is preparing the apocalypse and the “final clash.”[2] Underlining mercy as a fundamental attribute of God expresses this radically Christian need.
Francis wants to break the organic link between culture, politics, institution and Church. Spirituality cannot tie itself to governments or military pacts for it is at the service of all men and women. Religions cannot consider some people as sworn enemies nor others as eternal friends. Religion should not become the guarantor of the dominant classes. Yet it is this very dynamic with a spurious theological flavor that tries to impose its own law and logic in the political sphere.
There is a shocking rhetoric used, for example, by the writers of Church Militant, a successful US-based digital platform that is openly in favor of a political ultraconservatism and uses Christian symbols to impose itself. This abuse is called “authentic Christianity.” And to show its own preferences, it has created a close analogy between Donald Trump and Emperor Constantine, and between Hillary Clinton and Diocletian. The American elections in this perspective were seen as a “spiritual war.”[3]
This warlike and militant approach seems most attractive and evocative to a certain public, especially given that the victory of Constantine – it was presumed impossible for him to beat Maxentius and the Roman establishment – had to be attributed to a divine intervention: in hoc signo vinces.
Church Militant asks if Trump’s victory can be attributed to the prayers of Americans. The response suggested is affirmative. The indirect missioning for President Trump is clear: he has to follow through on the consequences. This is a very direct message that then wants to condition the presidency by framing it as a divine election. In hoc signo vinces. Indeed.
Today, more than ever, power needs to be removed from its faded confessional dress, from its armor, its rusty breastplate. The fundamentalist theopolitical plan is to set up a kingdom of the divinity here and now. And that divinity is obviously the projection of the power that has been built. This vision generates the ideology of conquest.
The theopolitical plan that is truly Christian would be eschatological, that is it applies to the future and orients current history toward the Kingdom of God, a kingdom of justice and peace. This vision generates a process of integration that unfolds with a diplomacy that crowns no one as a “man of Providence.”
And this is why the diplomacy of the Holy See wants to establish direct and fluid relations with the superpowers, without entering into pre-constituted networks of alliances and influence. In this sphere, the pope does not want to say who is right or who is wrong for he knows that at the root of conflicts there is always a fight for power. So, there is no need to imagine a taking of sides for moral reasons, much worse for spiritual ones.
Francis radically rejects the idea of activating a Kingdom of God on earth as was at the basis of the Holy Roman Empire and similar political and institutional forms, including at the level of a “party.” Understood this way, the “elected people” would enter a complicated political and religious web that would make them forget they are at the service of the world, placing them in opposition to those who are different, those who do not belong, that is the “enemy.”
So, then the Christian roots of a people are never to be understood in an ethnic way. The notions of roots and identity do not have the same content for a Catholic as for a neo-Pagan. Triumphalist, arrogant and vindictive ethnicism is actually the opposite of Christianity. The pope on May 9 in an interview with the French daily La Croix, said: “Yes Europe has Christian roots. Christianity has the duty of watering them, but in a spirit of service as in the washing of feet. The duty of Christianity for Europe is that of service.” And again: “The contribution of Christianity to a culture is that of Christ washing the feet, or the service and the gift of life. There is no room for colonialism.”
Against fear
Which feeling underlies the persuasive temptation for a spurious alliance between politics and religious fundamentalism? It is fear of the breakup of a constructed order and the fear of chaos. Indeed, it functions that way thanks to the chaos perceived. The political strategy for success becomes that of raising the tones of the conflictual, exaggerating disorder, agitating the souls of the people by painting worrying scenarios beyond any realism.
Religion at this point becomes a guarantor of order and a political part would incarnate its needs. The appeal to the apocalypse justifies the power desired by a god or colluded in with a god. And fundamentalism thereby shows itself not to be the product of a religious experience but a poor and abusive perversion of it.
This is why Francis is carrying forward a systematic counter-narration with respect to the narrative of fear. There is a need to fight against the manipulation of this season of anxiety and insecurity. Again, Francis is courageous here and gives no theological-political legitimacy to terrorists, avoiding any reduction of Islam to Islamic terrorism. Nor does he give it to those who postulate and want a “holy war” or to build barrier-fences crowned with barbed wire. The only crown that counts for the Christian is the one with thorns that Christ wore on high.[4]
(ITALIANO) (ESPAÑOL) (FRANÇAIS)
*Marcelo Figueroa, is Presbyterian pastor, Editor-in-chief of the Argentinean edition of L’Osservatore Romano
********
FOOTNOTES
[1] Bannon believes in the apocalyptic vision that William Strauss and Neil Howe theorized in their book The Fourth Turning: What Cycles of History Tell Us About America’s Next Rendezvous with Destiny. See also N. Howe, “Where did Steve Bannon get his worldview? From my book”, in The Washington Post, February 24, 2017.
[2] See A. Aresu, “Pope Francis against the Apocalypse”, in Macrogeo (www.macrogeo.global/analysis/pope-francis-against-the-apocalypse), June 9, 2017.
[3] See “Donald ‘Constantine’ Trump? Could Heaven be intervening directly in the election?”, in Church Militant (www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-donald-constantine-trump).
[4] For further reflection see D. J. Fares, “L’antropologia politica di Papa Francesco», in Civ. Catt. 2014 I 345-360; A. Spadaro, “La diplomazia di Francesco. La misericordia come processo politico”, ib 2016 I 209-226; D. J. Fares, “Papa Francesco e la politica”, ib 2016 I 373-385; J. L. Narvaja, “La crisi di ogni politica cristiana. Erich Przywara e l’‘idea di Europa’”, ib 2016 I 437-448; Id., “Il significato della politica internazionale di Francesco”, ib 2017 III 8-15.
 
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    Vigano: Pope Francis ‘Provoking’ Schism ‘Himself’ in Church
    vatican-whistleblower-vigano:-pope-francis-‘provoking’-schism-‘himself’-in-church


    The outdated college papal nuncio to the United States, who has alleged the existence of a “homosexual mafia” among the many bishops and clergy of the Catholic Church, says Pope Francis “himself” is “upsetting” a schism because of his aid for the Amazon Synod in Rome subsequent month.
    Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò spoke back to the pope’s most contemporary comment that he’s “no longer shrinking of schism” in the Church, though he prays it will no longer happen.

    “Pope Francis is asserting that because he knows the Amazon Synod would possibly perhaps perhaps maybe provoke a schism,” Viganò mentioned on September 11, in response to Contained in the Vatican reporter Dr. Robert Moynihan. He’s interesting to insist others are making the schism, however (by his actions in continuing to aid the Amazon Synod) he is upsetting it himself.”
    “Is this the attitude of a pastor who cares for the faithful?” Viganò requested. “It is his hang responsibility to quit a schism.”
    The synod is the Vatican’s anticipated assembly on the Church in the Amazon quandary and must focal point on “indigenous traditions and integral ecology.”
    Breitbart Data reported that Vatican critics insist the synod is pursuing a “neo-pagan agenda” because of its emphasis on indigenous traditions and folks needing to acknowledge the abominable techniques by which they like got “harmed” the ambiance.
    Cardinal Raymond Burke, an American who serves on the Vatican’s most life like court, mentioned in August whereas a visitor on the Patrick Coffin Expose that the working document for the synod is an “apostasy” and “can’t become the instructing of the Church.”
    In an analogous method, in response to FSSPX.NEWS, Cardinal Walter Brandmuller, outdated college president of the Pontifical Committee for Historic Sciences on the Vatican, mentioned the synod document is “heretical.”
    As CNSNews.com reported, Viganò mentioned of the synod’s working document, “The resolve of Christ is absent.”
    “The synod working document testifies to the emergence of a put up-Christian Catholic theology, now, in this 2d,” he mentioned. “And right here is terribly troubling. It is in opposition to all the things I of route like labored for and believed for all my lifestyles.”
    Pope Francis’ most contemporary feedback about People like drawn criticism as properly.
    The pope modified into as soon as no longer too lengthy ago requested whereas returning to Italy from Africa about his observation that “it’s an honor when People assault me.”
    The comment modified into as soon as share of a dialogue about a novel guide titled How The US Wants to Commerce the Pope, the point of curiosity of which is an allegation that conservative Catholics in the United States are attempting to sabotage Pope Francis’ liberal agenda.

    “There repeatedly is the schismatic possibility in the Church,” mentioned the pope, reported Crux. “It’s a desire that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I’m no longer shrinking of schism … I pray for them no longer to happen, as the non secular health of many folks is at stake.”
    Crux further reported:
    Francis mentioned that folks who criticize him for following the 2nd Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “asserting [the same] things John Paul II mentioned,” and who label him as “a minute bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism happens.”
    The pope then complained of what he called “pockets of tension, which aren’t a schism, however they’re semi-schismatic techniques of lifestyles that will discontinuance badly.”

    He persevered that clergy and lay folks who are “inflexible” lack the “health” of the Gospel.
    Viganò, alternatively, has instructed it is the pope’s liberal agenda that is driving a schism and intelligent opposition from orthodox Catholics.
    Let’s insist, Monsignor Charles Pope, pastor of a Washington, DC, church, commented that he’s “wearied from being scorned and demonized” by Pope Francis.
    Pray for accurate monks fancy Msgr. Pope who are suffering tremendously beneath this pope. pic.twitter.com/RTfYZ1dIAz
    — Eric Sammons (@EricRSammons) September 11, 2019
    Msgr. Pope posted Pope Francis’ most contemporary remarks in Mozambique about so-called “inflexible monks”:
    This day it’s current, to procure inflexible folks. Younger, inflexible monks, who ought to set with tension, perhaps, I don’t know, however they take this attitude of tension and usually – excuse me – from the museum. They are shrinking of all the things, they are inflexible. Watch out, and know that beneath any tension there are serious issues.
    In response to Pope Francis’ remarks, Msgr. Pope mentioned, “I don’t in reality feel accompanied by you,” and persevered:
    Develop room on your coronary heart for me and others fancy me. I’m no longer a younger priest, however I know you don’t fancy my sort of priesthood. Extra I’m an American and this mere truth appears to be like to furthermore assemble me difficult on your eyes.
    Msgr. Pope informed Francis he has “issues for the paradox of some of your teachings and severity of some of your actions.”
    I assemble no longer locate this continuous criticism from our cherished Holy Father as Christlike, I procure it painful and destrucitve of religion and solidarity, and contrary to the action of the Holy Spirit’s action in the Church. https://t.co/o7sXt4tIBV
    — fr. raymond blake (@raylblake) September 11, 2019
    Father Raymond Blake of Brighton, England, tweeted, “I don’t locate this continuous criticism from our cherished Holy Father as Christlike, I procure it painful and negative of religion and solidarity, and contrary to the action of the Holy Spirit’s action in the Church.”
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

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    the catholic institution is a strong one. 1.2 billion approx if not more. major growth in asia and africa.
     
    CrusaderV

    CrusaderV

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    the catholic institution is a strong one. 1.2 billion approx if not more. major growth in asia and africa.
    Badly divided bro
    Pope Francis liberals ideas are too much for conservatives Catholic
    Although I m against a schism
     
    CrusaderV

    CrusaderV

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    'De facto state of schism': Vatican fears German bishops trying to reform church teaching
    by Jeffrey Cimmino
    | September 18, 2019 12:00 AM

    Five centuries after Martin Luther sparked a religious revolution in Europe, German Catholics are once again coming into conflict with the Vatican, this time over a planned meeting that would address key elements of the church's moral teaching and discipline.
    The German bishops are organizing a meeting, or Synodal Assembly, that would discuss issues including priestly celibacy, ordination, and marriage, raising concerns in the Vatican that they will try to change church teaching for German Catholics. The German bishops have been working closely with a lay group known as the Central Committee of German Catholics, which supports female ordination and opposes clerical celibacy.
    The Germans are pushing forward despite objections from Rome. Earlier this month, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, head of the Vatican's Congregation for Bishops, sent Cardinal Reinhard Marx, chairman of the German Bishops' Conference, an assessment of the German bishops' proposed meeting, which declared it is "not ecclesiologically valid." But Marx responded in a letter last week to Ouellet, telling him the German bishops will move forward on a "binding synodal path."
    The assessment sent by Ouellet noted that the German bishops are exceeding their authority by attempting to discuss, in a binding manner, moral issues affecting the whole church.
    “It is easy to see that these themes do not only affect the Church in Germany but the universal Church and, with few exceptions, cannot be the object of the deliberations or decisions of a particular Church without contravening what is expressed by the Holy Father in his letter," the assessment stated.
    Chad Pecknold, an associate professor of theology at the Catholic University of America, explained that the German bishops appear to want their assembly to function like a church council, which can make decisions about moral teachings that affect the entire church.
    "What they are trying to do is act like a council, and councils actually can bind the conscience and make changes which affect the universal church. And this is why the Holy See has said no to Cardinal Marx, that this synodal process which has been proposed is ecclesiologically invalid," Pecknold told the Washington Examiner.
    Marx, for his part, contended the results of the assembly's deliberations would be "helpful for the guidance of the universal Church and for other episcopal conferences."
    Pecknold said Marx has put himself in a tough position and risks reputational damage in Germany.
    "Cardinal Marx is in quite a precarious position because on one hand, if he backs down, he loses with his German secular peers that he very much wants to win with, so he really will lose a lot of political and social capital at home in Germany if he concedes to the pope," said Pecknold.
    Pope Francis has pushed for 'synodality' since assuming the papacy in 2013. Synods function as "advisory panels" of bishops, and the concept of synodality "really just means collegiality," Jessica Murdoch, a professor of theology at Villanova University, told the Catholic News Agency. Yet bishops remain "under the authority of the pope," and synodality does not mean the church's hierarchy is reduced to majority rule.
    Robert Royal, president of the Faith & Reason Institute, a think tank devoted to integrating faith and reason to address public policy issues, said Pope Francis "has shown a certain sympathy for the liberalizing tendencies in Germany." In a June letter, however, Pope Francis issuedinstructions to German bishops on the proper way to conduct the synodal process, which included a warning against democratizing church governance, or making church teaching a function what the majority favors.
    "I think he’s really in a tough situation because I don’t think he wants this to happen the way the Germans are pushing it," Royal told the Washington Examiner.
    A survey from 2014 indicates a majority of German Catholics would like to see changes to church teachings on issues ranging from premarital sex to contraception. The Central Committee's influence among German Catholics speaks to the prevalence of dissent toward orthodox moral views.
    The Central Committee is "one of the most, if not the most, prominent Catholic lay groups in the country," Ed Condon, a canon lawyer and Washington bureau chief for Catholic News Agency, told the Washington Examiner.
    The controversy over the assembly has prompted speculation of the possibility of a schism.
    "Cardinal Marx's comments on his 'synodal process' make ever more clear that the leadership of the Catholic Church in Germany is in a de facto state of schism. Those currently concerned about 'schisms' in the Church might want to think about that," said George Weigel, a biographer of Pope John Paul II and a distinguished senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a think tank focused on applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to public policy.
    Pecknold said the term "schism" can be thrown around loosely when discussing those who are not obeying the pope, but he said Marx's "behavior looks to be that of a bishop going his own way."
    Condon said that he doesn't think that schism is "imminent," adding that the German bishops do not appear to be trying to break communion with Rome. They do, however, appear to be trying to discuss "settled matters" of church teaching, he said.
    Marx and Ouellet are set to meet this week, and Condon said Marx might claim afterward that all misunderstandings were cleared up. If the Vatican then issues an alternative interpretation, and more directly rejects the German bishops' synodal process, then "we’ll really start reaching sort of uncharted territory," according to Condon.
    "It hasn’t yet gotten to the point where there’s a clear 'no' that’s being ignored, and I think when we get to that moment that’s when it will be interesting," said Condon.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

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    Badly divided bro
    Pope Francis liberals ideas are too much for conservatives Catholic
    Although I m against a schism
    the issue is Europe. most people dont go to church, high amounts of immigrants coming to England, France, Germany etc and mostly the people of these countries are athiest hence the religious percentages of Europe will drop.
     
    CrusaderV

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    the issue is Europe. most people dont go to church, high amounts of immigrants coming to England, France, Germany etc and mostly the people of these countries are athiest hence the religious percentages of Europe will drop.
    In Germany they want
    Female priest
    Priest to get married
    Acceptance of homosexuality
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    In Germany they want
    Female priest
    Priest to get married
    Acceptance of homosexuality
    Europe is not christian man. some backward secular atheist mentality. they keep on bringing immigrants from outside and change the landscape if their country.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

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    Badly divided bro
    Pope Francis liberals ideas are too much for conservatives Catholic
    Although I m against a schism
    What are you talking about, dude? Pope Francis is to Catholicism what Tupac is to Rap.
    He's a legend and will always be remembered as one.
     
    CrusaderV

    CrusaderV

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    What are you talking about, dude? Pope Francis is to Catholicism what Tupac is to Rap.
    He's a legend and will always be remembered as one.
    [/QUOTE]
    'De facto state of schism': Vatican fears German bishops trying to reform church teaching
    by Jeffrey Cimmino
    | September 18, 2019 12:00 AM

    Five centuries after Martin Luther sparked a religious revolution in Europe, German Catholics are once again coming into conflict with the Vatican, this time over a planned meeting that would address key elements of the church's moral teaching and discipline.
    The German bishops are organizing a meeting, or Synodal Assembly, that would discuss issues including priestly celibacy, ordination, and marriage, raising concerns in the Vatican that they will try to change church teaching for German Catholics. The German bishops have been working closely with a lay group known as the Central Committee of German Catholics, which supports female ordination and opposes clerical celibacy.
    The Germans are pushing forward despite objections from Rome. Earlier this month, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, head of the Vatican's Congregation for Bishops, sent Cardinal Reinhard Marx, chairman of the German Bishops' Conference, an assessment of the German bishops' proposed meeting, which declared it is "not ecclesiologically valid." But Marx responded in a letter last week to Ouellet, telling him the German bishops will move forward on a "binding synodal path."
    The assessment sent by Ouellet noted that the German bishops are exceeding their authority by attempting to discuss, in a binding manner, moral issues affecting the whole church.
    “It is easy to see that these themes do not only affect the Church in Germany but the universal Church and, with few exceptions, cannot be the object of the deliberations or decisions of a particular Church without contravening what is expressed by the Holy Father in his letter," the assessment stated.
    Chad Pecknold, an associate professor of theology at the Catholic University of America, explained that the German bishops appear to want their assembly to function like a church council, which can make decisions about moral teachings that affect the entire church.
    "What they are trying to do is act like a council, and councils actually can bind the conscience and make changes which affect the universal church. And this is why the Holy See has said no to Cardinal Marx, that this synodal process which has been proposed is ecclesiologically invalid," Pecknold told the Washington Examiner.
    Marx, for his part, contended the results of the assembly's deliberations would be "helpful for the guidance of the universal Church and for other episcopal conferences."
    Pecknold said Marx has put himself in a tough position and risks reputational damage in Germany.
    "Cardinal Marx is in quite a precarious position because on one hand, if he backs down, he loses with his German secular peers that he very much wants to win with, so he really will lose a lot of political and social capital at home in Germany if he concedes to the pope," said Pecknold.
    Pope Francis has pushed for 'synodality' since assuming the papacy in 2013. Synods function as "advisory panels" of bishops, and the concept of synodality "really just means collegiality," Jessica Murdoch, a professor of theology at Villanova University, told the Catholic News Agency. Yet bishops remain "under the authority of the pope," and synodality does not mean the church's hierarchy is reduced to majority rule.
    Robert Royal, president of the Faith & Reason Institute, a think tank devoted to integrating faith and reason to address public policy issues, said Pope Francis "has shown a certain sympathy for the liberalizing tendencies in Germany." In a June letter, however, Pope Francis issuedinstructions to German bishops on the proper way to conduct the synodal process, which included a warning against democratizing church governance, or making church teaching a function what the majority favors.
    "I think he’s really in a tough situation because I don’t think he wants this to happen the way the Germans are pushing it," Royal told the Washington Examiner.
    A survey from 2014 indicates a majority of German Catholics would like to see changes to church teachings on issues ranging from premarital sex to contraception. The Central Committee's influence among German Catholics speaks to the prevalence of dissent toward orthodox moral views.
    The Central Committee is "one of the most, if not the most, prominent Catholic lay groups in the country," Ed Condon, a canon lawyer and Washington bureau chief for Catholic News Agency, told the Washington Examiner.
    The controversy over the assembly has prompted speculation of the possibility of a schism.
    "Cardinal Marx's comments on his 'synodal process' make ever more clear that the leadership of the Catholic Church in Germany is in a de facto state of schism. Those currently concerned about 'schisms' in the Church might want to think about that," said George Weigel, a biographer of Pope John Paul II and a distinguished senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a think tank focused on applying the Judeo-Christian moral tradition to public policy.
    Pecknold said the term "schism" can be thrown around loosely when discussing those who are not obeying the pope, but he said Marx's "behavior looks to be that of a bishop going his own way."
    Condon said that he doesn't think that schism is "imminent," adding that the German bishops do not appear to be trying to break communion with Rome. They do, however, appear to be trying to discuss "settled matters" of church teaching, he said.
    Marx and Ouellet are set to meet this week, and Condon said Marx might claim afterward that all misunderstandings were cleared up. If the Vatican then issues an alternative interpretation, and more directly rejects the German bishops' synodal process, then "we’ll really start reaching sort of uncharted territory," according to Condon.
    "It hasn’t yet gotten to the point where there’s a clear 'no' that’s being ignored, and I think when we get to that moment that’s when it will be interesting," said Condon.
    Read this bro
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Europe is not christian man. some backward secular atheist mentality. they keep on bringing immigrants from outside and change the landscape if their country.

    Atheism is not necessarily bad. It just happens that some atheist liberals are very accepting of Muslim refugees.

    But well-informed atheists would never bow down to Islam. They are well aware of the horrors of this evil cult.

    #atheistforjesus
     
    CrusaderV

    CrusaderV

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Gathering of German bishops tests Pope Francis' efforts for decentralization
    Sep 19, 2019
    by Claire Giangrave, Religion News Service

    Vatican
    webRNS-Pope-Francis1-091719.jpg

    Pope Francis prays during his weekly general audience, at the Vatican, on Sept. 11, 2019. (AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)
    VATICAN CITY — Following an attempt by the Vatican to exercise control over its upcoming and reform-driven gathering, the Catholic Church in Germany has made it clear that it has no intention of backing down, proving to be yet another wedge in the internal church wars that have plagued Pope Francis' six-year papacy.
    At the root of the increasingly tense argument is a two-year national consultation of German bishops that seeks enough decision-making authority to lead the local Catholic community through some hot-button issues touching on ministry and morality.
    Under the hybrid definition of "Synodal Assembly," the bishops have decided to address topics ranging from the clerical abuse crisis to female priesthood and sexuality. Both the subject matter and the fact that the meeting will rely heavily on the involvement of lay people are testing Francis' policy of decentralization and raising concerns at the Vatican that the German bishops are trying to take their own independent path.
    "We hope that the results of forming an opinion (on these matters) in our country will also be helpful for the guidance of the Universal Church and for other episcopal conferences on a case-by-case basis," said Cardinal Reinhard Marx, the head of the German episcopal conference, in a letter sent Thursday (Sept. 12) to the Vatican.
    Initially, Francis had clarified in a letter to the German bishops signed June 29 that in a "synodal process" the entirety of the church must be involved, top to bottom, with an emphasis on the top.
    "The universal Church lives in and of the particular churches," the pope wrote, "just as the particular churches live and flourish in and of the universal Church, if they are separated from the whole ecclesial body, they weaken, wither and die."
    webRNS-Reinhard-Marx1-020518.jpg

    Munich Archbishop Cardinal Reinhard Marx speaks during the Munich Security Conference in Munich, southern Germany, on Feb. 17, 2017. (AP Photo/Matthias Schrader)
    Judging a situation at the grassroots level is a good start, he added, but it must later be evaluated in context with the whole church, guided by the bishops and led by the pope. Only this way, he said, will the Catholic community be able to "overcome an angst that makes us close in on ourselves and on our particularities."
    Francis' suggestions for the assembly, which wanted to focus more on evangelization and communion, was voted out by a large majority of the German episcopacy during its Aug. 19 meeting.
    To address the growing concerns on the German assembly, the Vatican tapped Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet, who heads the Vatican department overseeing bishops. Ouellet has a bit of a reputation for bringing back outliers. In a public letter last year, he chastised Italian Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò's "blasphemous" appeal for the pope to resign due to his alleged role in the clerical sex abuse scandal involving Theodore McCarrick.
    Ouellet is also the man who reined back the U.S. conference of bishops during their meeting last November, where they were set to discuss policies for accountability and the protection of minors. At the time, the cardinal explained in a letter that such decisions in the United States would have had complex legal ramifications.
    Once again with the German bishops, Ouellet is taking this tack.
    webRNS-Marc-Ouellet-100818.jpg

    Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet attends a Mass at the Vatican in 2013. (AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)
    In a four-page evaluation of the legal repercussion of the Synodal Assembly signed on Sept. 4, Ouellet told Marx that the gathering "is not ecclesiologically valid." Ouellet's main argument in the evaluation centered on the topics the Germans had set out to discuss; he contends their decisions on these topics not only impact their region, but the entire church, and risk splintering the already fractured Catholic community. More than that, though, the bishops had not listened to the pope.
    In his answer to Ouellet, Marx clarified that the initial proposal for the synod has been significantly reviewed by the permanent council over the summer so that it no longer contains some of the hot-topic issues presented in the initial proposal. Regardless, he maintained that a debate could also include matters already part of the magisterium of the church.
    "Countless believers in Germany consider (these issues) to be in need of discussion," Marx added, alluding to the fact that the assembly still wishes to have an open conversation on questions that have already been settled by the church.
    The German cardinal is currently in Rome for a meeting with Francis and with Vatican representatives. The last chapter of this saga remains to be decided.
    Marx wouldn't be the first to leave the papal halls crestfallen, but the concerns of the German bishops will likely play an important role as the Vatican prepares to host another troublesome synod on the Amazon region in October, where the ever-existing tensions between the center and the peripheries in the Catholic world are poised to take center stage.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Atheism is not necessarily bad. It just happens that some atheist liberals are very accepting of Muslim refugees.

    But well-informed atheists would never bow down to Islam. They are well aware of the horrors of this evil cult.

    #atheistforjesus
    ziad rahbani once said on tv that the future will be an alliance between the reds and the islamist. we are seeing it now.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    If we take France for example. muslims are 6% of the pop. algeria, morocco and tunisia the major countries that represent the muslims. 3 mil just these 3 countries to be exact in france. with a birth rate more than the french in 2030 they could be as high as 10% or even higher. the western world have no one to blame but themselves.

    the english the same. they brought over pakistani and bangladeshi muslims for cheap labor purposes and gave them citizenships. now u have like 3 million if not more in england.
     
    Big Brother

    Big Brother

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Hate the belief, love the believer.
     
    CrusaderV

    CrusaderV

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Hate the belief, love the believer.
    Greatest power is love
    In my father house there is many mansions said Jesus
    I believe there is place for all humans there
    Important is to love
    Each believe in his or her own way
     
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