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Changing the Lebanese Political System: What are the Alternatives to the Present Sectarian System

Rafidi

Legendary Member
This thread is created in sequel to the below thread/posts:

7tarna ya 2ar3a...

You want expat votes and now you got it. You discover Christians outside are not as many as Muslims and now you complain looking for shortcuts to gain advantage. The problem with Lebanese Christians is the lack of a sense of fairness towards their Muslim brothers and sisters. Until the system in Lebanon is fair and just, it will continue to hurt all. That simple. People who are opposed to a secular state with civil laws and marriage always hide behind their fingers and pretend it is Muslims who dont want it. When did you care about what others want or dont want?

My opinion is this. We are all LEBANESE and will remain. Whether the Muslim population grows to 90% or not. We must find ways yo coexist without projecting a disparity and preferential treatment. Let us replace the preferential treatment with a fair and just system.

The system needs change. No one can deny it. Those benefiting and those at disadvantage would agree the Lebanese structure and entire political system needs UPROOTING, not just change. It is time for all lebanese to be equal.

What I think is the solution is not science rocket and you can experience it in many religiously mixed countries. Let us try the presidential system in a secular democracy where religion is personal and not public.

Let us have a president and a vice president. Any lebanese from any community can become president or vice president. But both the president and his vice cannot be from the same religion. You can have an orthodox president and an alawite vice president. In a secular state. Abolish the prime minister post. Its purely presidential system with a cabinet (50/50 Muslim and Christians ministers) appointed by the president and his vice. Likewise, we can have a sectarian senate equally divided along sectarian lines with the senate president and the senate deputy president from different religions. Same with the Parliament. Speaker and deputy from different religions. The parliament will be proportional to reflect the population makeup. Let there be fairness, equity and acceptance. Not division, discrimination and stepping on toes. The system should be changed even if that change means advancement or redesigning it.

Popular (direct) vote for the president and the two houses of senate and house of Parliament. It is time to move ahead and join the world.

We can have civil marriage. If you want to conduct a religious ceremony, it should be a personal choice based on freedom to practice your religion and not based on any legal framework. It is simple worship. Do a civil marriage registration in a state court and then you can proceed to the church or mosque and conduct a prayer and religious ceremony to sanctify the Union in God's eye. That simple.

The solution in Lebanon is a lot simple.it is Lebanese who are complicating their lives and empowering sectarianism, racism, discrimination and destroying the future of their children. Lebanese want and choose to be difficult and make life difficult.

After the election, it is time for the major leaders to work to changing the system. That's the only way we can have a fair system. We can still have a fair system where both religions (Christians and Muslims) are represented and have their image preserved in the state.

When it comes to hezballah, I support them 100% as a resistance movement. I support the resistance, armed rsisstance against the Israeli occupation and the takfiri threat from within and without. The support I give to hezballah is not because they are a political party or because I share their political goals as a lebanese individual. Lebanon needs a Lebanese system where everyone, regardless of their religious affiliation is first and foremost a citizen. In a mixed country, the islam I follow does not tell me to lord my identity on others. It is when others try to force their image on me as a Lebanese that I feel threatened.

The problem is that the resistance has been politicized and counter politicized by both sides. The resistance represented by hezballah should be protected and preserved to serve the existence of the entire country. This is a force and power that is a treasure in the hands of all Lebanon. It must be protected and preserved. It should not be politicized. In a secular state, with the right defense strategy, the politicization of the resistance must stop. It must end. Those opposed to the resistance are using their position to trade for money and recognition from foreign patrons and to incite sectarian feelings of their supporters. It is business. Hezballah doesn't need members in Parliament or ministers if its weapons and its existence are upheld by the state as a necessity to protect Lebanon. You can call it a paramilitary group under state recognition, protection and patronage to counter the Israeli threat.

There must be lebanese consensus to protect the resistance as a necessity to protect Lebanon. Stop politicizing the resistance and it will have no need to seek legitimization through politics and elections. If the state can protect the resistance, then the resistance will not need my vote to protect it through political partisanship. And I will not either see need to vote for Hezbollah. Let any individual or party try to contest against amal/hezballah and SHN will come on TV to remind the shia constituency not to betray the resistance. And I dont blame him. He needs my vote and I will give him because I need that resistance down south to protect my village and existence.

Without changing the system, and breaking sectarian barriers by making it a free system of equity, fairness and equality based on citizenship, and to reflect all of Lebanon fairly, we should not bother wasting time on analysis and beating around the bush. Enjoy the mess! The political system in Lebanon is a mess. The govt./ administrative corruption is even worse than in African countries. Here corruption for instance is carried on with dignified impunity. A govt worker can demand bribe without any sense of guilt or shame.

Federalism will not work because it will create more internal divisions and place people against each. It becomes each federating unit against the other. And within each unit with mixed communities, there will be hot sectarian competition.

Having a presidential system with the people directly voting, and the president and the vice coming from different religions enshrined in the constitution will work. The cabinet will still be 50/50. Senate will be 50/50. The Parliament will reflect the population proportionally. In other words, we need a new constitution. We are basically breaking barriers whereby govt posts are not monopolized by one community or the other. Or reserved for a particular community. Instead, we are having fair representation and coexistence. Instead of apportioning the presidency to Maronite and pm to Sunnis and speaker to shia, we can have a Muslim president and a christian vice president. A christian senate president and a Muslim deputy senate president. A christian speaker and a Muslim deputy speaker. Or vice versa. It means any lebanese can have the chance to be anything anywhere and in any post. But in the spirit of equity whereby the top two positions are occupied by two men from the two different religions in the country. Its fairness and equity and equal opportunities in the spirit of tolerance and coexistence.
 
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Rafidi

Legendary Member
I agree with you. Even if the system is to be changed, and the president is no longer a christian, the christian presence must be preserved and protected and sustained in govt and in the country at large. If the president is Muslim, the vice cannot be Muslim. If the president is Christian, the vice will be Muslim. Same with the senate leadership and the parliamentary leadership. The cabinet will be divided equally.

The only thing changed of major importance is the sectarian monopolization of certain posts. All posts will be open to all lebanese of all sects and with fair representation whereby if the number one is Muslim, the number two must be Christian; and if the number one is christian, the number two is Muslim. This would be openness, fairness and equity.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
I suggest this eventhough i know it wont be implemented.
We have a President with powers we have a PM with the powers currently. We have a speaker with the powers currently and we have a senate.
All four heads are elected by the people. The President is a rotation between the christian sects. The second position out of the other 3 is also christian but elected by the people of the country.
So for example say the people elected an Orthodox President and then they vote for a Maronite Speaker then there will be PM and the Chair of the Senate. People will vote for the muslims for these two positions that are left over.
The Parliament there is no sect allotment but the senate does and you will need 7/10 to approve any law even if the Parliament passes it.
We need something that makes everyone feels that their rights are protected and this will make the Christians feel safe no matter what their numbers are.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I suggest this eventhough i know it wont be implemented.
We have a President with powers we have a PM with the powers currently. We have a speaker with the powers currently and we have a senate.
All four heads are elected by the people. The President is a rotation between the christian sects. The second position out of the other 3 is also christian but elected by the people of the country.
So for example say the people elected an Orthodox President and then they vote for a Maronite Speaker then there will be PM and the Chair of the Senate. People will vote for the muslims for these two positions that are left over.
The Parliament there is no sect allotment but the senate does and you will need 7/10 to approve any law even if the Parliament passes it.
We need something that makes everyone feels that their rights are protected and this will make the Christians feel safe no matter what their numbers are.

I believe no position in Lebanon should be the exclusive right to any one particular community.

Any Lebanese should have the right to be whatever he aspires to be and to hold whatever position that belongs to the country called Lebanon.

To have a culture of fairness, coexistence and tolerance, the president and the vice must not be from the same religion. When the president is Muslim, the vice should be Christian. And if the president is Christian, then the vice must be Muslim. Same with senate, and parliament. The cabinet can still be 50/50 sharing. The parliament can be fully proportional to reflect population and the senate can be through sectarian representation and with equal distribution between Muslims and Christians.

Even at at, you would not need more than 50 senators in Lebanon and 100 MPs. Govt should be made up of NOT more than 20 ministers. Make it small and efficient. Lebanon is a small country.

All Lebanese must feel equal in their country without discrimination and sectarian impediments to restrict the rights of Lebanese citizens based on their religious affiliations.

As things are presently, no Lebanese can feel complete as a citizen. We are all handicapped. No Lebanese is a full citizen going by the limitations and sectarian monopolies of posts in govt.

With a president and vice, in a presidential system, and voted directly by the people, there will be no need for a prime minister. We'd have Senate and parliament voted too directly by the people.
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
I believe no position in Lebanon should be the exclusive right to any one particular community.

Any Lebanese should have the right to be whatever he aspires to be and to hold whatever position that belongs to the country called Lebanon.

To have a culture of fairness, coexistence and tolerance, the president and the vice must not be from the same religion. When the president is Muslim, the vice should be Christian. And if the president is Christian, then the vice must be Muslim. Same with senate, and parliament. The cabinet can still be 50/50 sharing. The parliament can be fully proportional to reflect population and the senate can be through sectarian representation and with equal distribution between Muslims and Christians.

Even at at, you would not need more than 50 senators in Lebanon and 100 MPs. Govt should be made up of NOT more than 20 ministers. Make it small and efficient. Lebanon is a small country.

All Lebanese must feel equal in their country without discrimination and sectarian impediments to restrict the rights of Lebanese citizens based on their religious affiliations.

As things are presently, no Lebanese can feel complete as a citizen. We are all handicapped. No Lebanese is a full citizen going by the limitations and sectarian monopolies of posts in govt.

With a president and vice, in a presidential system, and voted directly by the people, there will be no need for a prime minister. We'd have Senate and parliament voted too directly by the people.
Pure bla bla bla
We are composed of different cultural groups t
The only solution is a federal system that make all Lebanese feel confident and safe for their future
When I hear berri talking I wish I can buy a ticket and vanish from this country forever
We are very different to be one country
What is currently happening is just a genocide
Killing our dreams our future by extremists ideology whether Sunni chia or Druze
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Pure bla bla bla
We are composed of different cultural groups t
The only solution is a federal system that make all Lebanese feel confident and safe for their future
When I hear berri talking I wish I can buy a ticket and vanish from this country forever
We are very different to be one country
What is currently happening is just a genocide
Killing our dreams our future by extremists ideology whether Sunni chia or Druze

No christian extremists in Lebanon?

Wein el insaf wol sharakeh el ha2i2iyyeh?
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
No christian extremists in Lebanon?

Wein el insaf wol sharakeh el ha2i2iyyeh?

extremism is everywhere due to the current system that forces cultural group to fight for their rights
when you have a federal system the borders and land rights will keep you safe
there would be no reason to fight since each group will be busy tackling its own problems
if hadath people decide to stop giving construction permits they can do it
if chi3a want to flood their public companies (like electricity ) with useless people they can do it in their regions
not at the expense of others as it is happening now
we can't keep paying taxes for berri, jumbi and hariri people to keep plundering the state administration
majliss el jounoub - wizarit el mhajarine - majlis el enmei2 wel e3mar
the only way to stop this is a federal system or at least a decentralized system based on the current 15 electoral regions
it will solve 80-90% of the problems in lebanon
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
extremism is everywhere due to the current system that forces cultural group to fight for their rights
when you have a federal system the borders and land rights will keep you safe
there would be no reason to fight since each group will be busy tackling its own problems
if hadath people decide to stop giving construction permits they can do it
if chi3a want to flood their public companies (like electricity ) with useless people they can do it in their regions
not at the expense of others as it is happening now
we can't keep paying taxes for berri, jumbi and hariri people to keep plundering the state administration
majliss el jounoub - wizarit el mhajarine - majlis el enmei2 wel e3mar
the only way to stop this is a federal system or at least a decentralized system based on the current 15 electoral regions
it will solve 80-90% of the problems in lebanon

You are the problem of Lebanon.

Instead of bringing people together, and working for a saner country to improve the situation and inspire progress, you are advocating division. You will sink deeper. Allah la yredkon. You want to share a country with others while you keep sounding as if you're a special specie from outer space while others are shit. You will lose! Failure.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Our next president, in-sha-Allah, to sanitize some political hooligans and deflate some balloon heads.

1518180472_2.jpg
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
You are the problem of Lebanon.

Instead of bringing people together, and working for a saner country to improve the situation and inspire progress, you are advocating division. You will sink deeper. Allah la yredkon. You want to share a country with others while you keep sounding as if you're a special specie from outer space while others are shit. You will lose! Failure.

allah la yreddik nchallah
you want to vandalize the country and plunder its resources and we have to accept this
you live on our backs where we pay tax and you steal electricity
your areas are no-go zones where you reject others
you go and buy appartments in hazmieh while not a single christian wants to live in da7yeh
did you ask yourself why christians that constitute the majority of people of haret hreik all left ???
not a single one is there
because you don't accept others living next to you
and you come and teach us lessons in accepting others
you behave as 7awash and we have to say you are civilized ???
if you feel like shit it's your problem
allah men 3endo la yreddik nchallah
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
@Mockinggbird I think Rachel Corrie (the user) is a man.

The actual Rachel Corrie is an American woman activist who got bulldozed by Israelis while protesting against settlements.
 

Achilles

Active Member
You are the problem of Lebanon.

Instead of bringing people together, and working for a saner country to improve the situation and inspire progress, you are advocating division. You will sink deeper. Allah la yredkon. You want to share a country with others while you keep sounding as if you're a special specie from outer space while others are shit. You will lose! Failure.

Federalism is not division. Many of the most advanced Countries in the world are federal countries.

The only reason I see some Muslims rejecting federalism is because after becoming a majority of the population in the country in the 1980ies they also seek to Become a majority in the traditional Christians districts (btw it’s already the case in Zahle and Baabda districts formerly Christian’s districts) a federal system will prevent this.

Or maybe they know that the Christian autonomous regions will become more prosperous and attracted more investments.

BTW, federalism is already implemented undercover. When Tripoli decides to ban alcohol advertising, when Nabatiyeh officially bans alcohol selling, when Hadath municipality refuse to register real-estates transfer to other than Christians, that’s federalism in disguise and is against the current Lebanese law. BTW seems some Druze municipalities are doing the same in the Mountain...

Secularism will not work, we have no exemple of a successful secular Arab/Muslim country. Full secularism is a weapon used today by some Christians to counter the Muslim « majority » claim. They know Muslims will never accept full secularism.

Lebanon at some point was a federal country. During the ottoman era when mount-Lebanon while being one political entity was divided into two federal regions (Christian and Druze)

Another argument for federalism is that historically greater Lebanon was built in 1920 by adding predominantely Muslim regions to an already autonomous Christian/Druze Mount-Lebanon (The Moutassarifiya).

A federal system today will just put some rules and a legal frame to what is already being practice on the ground.

Seriously at the next elections in 2022 Sunni alone and Shi’a alone will probably outnumber all the Christians (currently numbers are very close), so the 50/50 formula will be less and less acceptable. So this is the time for Christians and muslims to start considering the future. Lebanon is in my opinion an ideal country for experiencing a federal system.
 

light-in-dark

Legendary Member
Our next president, in-sha-Allah, to sanitize some political hooligans and deflate some balloon heads.

View attachment 9852
Ya 7raram 3layna ma chifna chighlo mitlo mitil berri bil wizarat. I think also his genes are very bad coz his father and grand father are so feudal.
Look my dear hewas raised up by his grand father. So go take a look to their history and tell us if u still convinced ti have him as president.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Federalism is not division. Many of the most advanced Countries in the world are federal countries.

The only reason I see some Muslims rejecting federalism is because after becoming a majority of the population in the country in the 1980ies they also seek to Become a majority in the traditional Christians districts (btw it’s already the case in Zahle and Baabda districts formerly Christian’s districts) a federal system will prevent this.

Or maybe they know that the Christian autonomous regions will become more prosperous and attracted more investments.

BTW, federalism is already implemented undercover. When Tripoli decides to ban alcohol advertising, when Nabatiyeh officially bans alcohol selling, when Hadath municipality refuse to register real-estates transfer to other than Christians, that’s federalism in disguise and is against the current Lebanese law. BTW seems some Druze municipalities are doing the same in the Mountain...

Secularism will not work, we have no exemple of a successful secular Arab/Muslim country. Full secularism is a weapon used today by some Christians to counter the Muslim « majority » claim. They know Muslims will never accept full secularism.

Lebanon at some point was a federal country. During the ottoman era when mount-Lebanon while being one political entity was divided into two federal regions (Christian and Druze)

Another argument for federalism is that historically greater Lebanon was built in 1920 by adding predominantely Muslim regions to an already autonomous Christian/Druze Mount-Lebanon (The Moutassarifiya).

A federal system today will just put some rules and a legal frame to what is already being practice on the ground.

Seriously at the next elections in 2022 Sunni alone and Shi’a alone will probably outnumber all the Christians (currently numbers are very close), so the 50/50 formula will be less and less acceptable. So this is the time for Christians and muslims to start considering the future. Lebanon is in my opinion an ideal country for experiencing a federal system.

No, the current numbers are not close. I tallied the votes by sect in each electoral district. Christians make up %36 of total voters.

And we're not taking into consideration that the majority of Lebanese under 21 are Muslim. In the next parliamentary elections the number of Christian voters will be much much lower.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Ya 7raram 3layna ma chifna chighlo mitlo mitil berri bil wizarat. I think also his genes are very bad coz his father and grand father are so feudal.
Look my dear hewas raised up by his grand father. So go take a look to their history and tell us if u still convinced ti have him as president.

True. Also, Marada used to be one of the most sectarian militias prior to their alliance with Syria. Worse than LF.
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
@Achilles Azerbaijan is a successful secular Muslim-majority country. But then again Azeris are not very religious to begin with, probably due to Soviet impact.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Federalism is not division. Many of the most advanced Countries in the world are federal countries.

The only reason I see some Muslims rejecting federalism is because after becoming a majority of the population in the country in the 1980ies they also seek to Become a majority in the traditional Christians districts (btw it’s already the case in Zahle and Baabda districts formerly Christian’s districts) a federal system will prevent this.

Or maybe they know that the Christian autonomous regions will become more prosperous and attracted more investments.

BTW, federalism is already implemented undercover. When Tripoli decides to ban alcohol advertising, when Nabatiyeh officially bans alcohol selling, when Hadath municipality refuse to register real-estates transfer to other than Christians, that’s federalism in disguise and is against the current Lebanese law. BTW seems some Druze municipalities are doing the same in the Mountain...

Secularism will not work, we have no exemple of a successful secular Arab/Muslim country. Full secularism is a weapon used today by some Christians to counter the Muslim « majority » claim. They know Muslims will never accept full secularism.

Lebanon at some point was a federal country. During the ottoman era when mount-Lebanon while being one political entity was divided into two federal regions (Christian and Druze)

Another argument for federalism is that historically greater Lebanon was built in 1920 by adding predominantely Muslim regions to an already autonomous Christian/Druze Mount-Lebanon (The Moutassarifiya).

A federal system today will just put some rules and a legal frame to what is already being practice on the ground.

Seriously at the next elections in 2022 Sunni alone and Shi’a alone will probably outnumber all the Christians (currently numbers are very close), so the 50/50 formula will be less and less acceptable. So this is the time for Christians and muslims to start considering the future. Lebanon is in my opinion an ideal country for experiencing a federal system.

It will be very difficult to divide Lebanon along federating units. It will not happen and it will not work or be the solution to our problems. It is like replicating smaller versions of Lebanon. That is multiplying the problems. Most areas have a mix of different sects. You will probably dominate in two or three qada and in the rest you will face more problems.
 

The Bidenator

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
allah la yreddik nchallah
you want to vandalize the country and plunder its resources and we have to accept this
you live on our backs where we pay tax and you steal electricity
your areas are no-go zones where you reject others
you go and buy appartments in hazmieh while not a single christian wants to live in da7yeh
did you ask yourself why christians that constitute the majority of people of haret hreik all left ???
not a single one is there
because you don't accept others living next to you
and you come and teach us lessons in accepting others
you behave as 7awash and we have to say you are civilized ???
if you feel like shit it's your problem
allah men 3endo la yreddik nchallah

Don't forget how Shiite villages in the South have a de facto boycott against dealing with Christian villages (3al shreet el 7doudi). There was a report on LBC or MTV about that.
 
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