Changing the Lebanese Political System: What are the Alternatives to the Present Sectarian System

Mockinggbird

New Member
It will be very difficult to divide Lebanon along federating units. It will not happen and it will not work or be the solution to our problems. It is like replicating smaller versions of Lebanon. That is multiplying the problems. Most areas have a mix of different sects. You will probably dominate in two or three qada and in the rest you will face more problems.
sometimes the level of the discussion is dragged so low due to an uneducated member coming from a militia minded baltaji background
 

Sayyid Muki

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
@Mockinggbird I think Rachel Corrie (the user) is a man.

The actual Rachel Corrie is an American woman activist who got bulldozed by Israelis while protesting against settlements.

She wasn't bulldozed by Israelis. She made a choice to stand in front of a moving bulldozer and received the Darwin Award.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Rachel Corrie's? Very flat I would guess.

Come on man. That's very mean-spirited. A good Jew should denounce the killing of Rachel Corrie. The man driving the bulldozer had the choice to stop. Be like Nathalie Portman. Set a good example for Jews in order to accelerate the peace agreement between Jews and Arabs.
 

Achilles

Active Member
No, the current numbers are not close. I tallied the votes by sect in each electoral district. Christians make up %36 of total voters.

And we're not taking into consideration that the majority of Lebanese under 21 are Muslim. In the next parliamentary elections the number of Christian voters will be much much lower.

It's not forbidden to take some time to read carefully before answering nonesense. I said numbers are close between Sunni ALONE, and Shia ALONE vs all Christians. It's been days am pointing out that Christians are 36% of the voters and much less if we count those 0-21...
 

Sayyid Muki

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Come on man. That's very mean-spirited. A good Jew should denounce the killing of Rachel Corrie. The man driving the bulldozer had the choice to stop. Be like Nathalie Portman. Set a good example for Jews in order to accelerate the peace agreement between Jews and Arabs.

It was a joke and of course her death is tragic, but it's her fault and no one else's. I won't reward her stupid behavior by giving Israel negative publicity.

She can protest all she wants, but standing in front of a moving bulldozer is not a protest, it's stupidity.
 

Achilles

Active Member
It will be very difficult to divide Lebanon along federating units. It will not happen and it will not work or be the solution to our problems. It is like replicating smaller versions of Lebanon. That is multiplying the problems. Most areas have a mix of different sects. You will probably dominate in two or three qada and in the rest you will face more problems.

Every federal country in the world is in this same situation. In every french cantons in Switzerland you have German villages, and in every German canton, you have a french minority living. In the french part of Belgium you have many Dutch speaking villages and in the Dutch part of Belgium you have many french villages. Every single federal country is like that.

Personally I am convinced that at some point federalism will be implemented in Lebanon. Otherwise these kind of lawless measures will increase. Today we have many Christians municipality who refuse to register any real estate bought by a Muslim, Which btw is completely illegal. What if all Christian's municipalities decides to do this someday? What will happen other than chaos and a state of lawless country?

At some point federalism will come naturally. It could be after those elections and a mature talk between communities, or later when Muslim will be 80 and 90% and will start questioning the 50/50 system, which is an absolute red line for Christians.
 

vegojimbo

Legendary Member
It was a joke and of course her death is tragic, but it's her fault and no one else's. I won't reward her stupid behavior by giving Israel negative publicity.

She can protest all she wants, but standing in front of a moving bulldozer is not a protest, it's stupidity.
do you hold the same opinion about the guy standing in front of a tank in Tiananmen square in China back in 1989? Was it also the protester's fault for the tank stepping on him?
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Every federal country in the world is in this same situation. In every french cantons in Switzerland you have German villages, and in every German canton, you have a french minority living. In the french part of Belgium you have many Dutch speaking villages and in the Dutch part of Belgium you have many french villages. Every single federal country is like that.

Personally I am convinced that at some point federalism will be implemented in Lebanon. Otherwise these kind of lawless measures will increase. Today we have many Christians municipality who refuse to register any real estate bought by a Muslim, Which btw is completely illegal. What if all Christian's municipalities decides to do this someday? What will happen other than chaos and a state of lawless country?

At some point federalism will come naturally. It could be after those elections and a mature talk between communities, or later when Muslim will be 80 and 90% and will start questioning the 50/50 system, which is an absolute red line for Christians.

What happens to Muslims living in a Christian-majority district and vice versa? Will they be forced to leave? Will Lebanese have the choice to choose where they want to live regardless of their religion? What about atheists, agnostics, and non-religious people?
 

SeaAb

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
Ktir sexy lamma ta3tina el wahra ;)
Badna nroo2..
tenor.gif
 

Achilles

Active Member
What happens to Muslims living in a Christian-majority district and vice versa? Will they be forced to leave? Will Lebanese have the choice to choose where they want to live regardless of their religion? What about atheists, agnostics, and non-religious people?

Of course they will have the choice to live wherever they want. USA is a federal country do you thing a guy from Florida can't relocate and live in California? Canada is a federal Country and a frenchie from the state of Quebec is totally free to move to english Ontario Or Alberta. The UK is a federal country, each part having its own parliament and first minister, but nothing forbid a scot to go and live in London or an Englishman to go and settle in Glasgow. Nigeria is a federal country and you have Muslims living in Christians states and Christians living in Muslim states. Federalism doesn't mean apartheid. Spain is a federal country and half the people of Catalonia are Spanish from other parts of Spain.

However, each autonomous entity will keep and protect its specificity. Quebec will adopt french as it's official language, with laws that reflects the history, culture way of thinking of the majority of the people living in Quebec, same for Scotland, Wales, Switzerland's cantons etc.

A Christian federal state in Lebanon will work the same way. Its job would be to keep a Christian face to the districts under its control (maybe they wanna teach lebanese written in Latin letters the Saïd Akl way, or make the Aramaic language a second official language, or to implement civil wedding etc.), without being closed to the other communities. Real-estate transfer for people from different areas will of course not be forbidden but regulated, which in my opinion is much better than vetoing any Muslim buying in Christian areas like it is unfortunately happening in a few municipalities actually.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Of course they will have the choice to live wherever they want. USA is a federal country do you thing a guy from Florida can't relocate and live in California? Canada is a federal Country and a frenchie from the state of Quebec is totally free to move to english Ontario Or Alberta. The UK is a federal country, each part having its own parliament and first minister, but nothing forbid a scot to go and live in London or an Englishman to go and settle in Glasgow. Nigeria is a federal country and you have Muslims living in Christians states and Christians living in Muslim states. Federalism doesn't mean apartheid. Spain is a federal country and half the people of Catalonia are Spanish from other parts of Spain.

However, each autonomous entity will keep and protect its specificity. Quebec will adopt french as it's official language, with laws that reflects the history, culture way of thinking of the majority of the people living in Quebec, same for Scotland, Wales, Switzerland's cantons etc.

A Christian federal state in Lebanon will work the same way. Its job would be to keep a Christian face to the districts under its control (maybe they wanna teach lebanese written in Latin letters the Saïd Akl way, or make the Aramaic language a second official language, or to implement civil wedding etc.), without being closed to the other communities. Real-estate transfer for people from different areas will of course not be forbidden but regulated, which in my opinion is much better than vetoing any Muslim buying in Christian areas like it is unfortunately happening in a few municipalities actually.

Yeah I don't get why the idea of federalism is often demonized and labeled as a mashrou3 sahyouneh. It's working well in the countries you mentioned. But it's Christians themselves who abandoned federalism back in the 1980s and embraced the idea of 10,452 KM 2.

Maronites will do anything to become presidents.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
@LVV

We don't need another system. We need to revoke the 94 law which has damaged the christian demographics from Baabda, Zahle to Akkar and even Tripoli. Once the law is revoked the 300K alot of which are not even on Lebanese land would have been stricken off the electoral lists. The voter list would then be at least 43% christian.

The christians then need to work on a law that suits them. Taef needs to be implemented so we can have a senate. Half of its members christians and the other half muslims. Nothing can be passed without 7/10 approval. This will take away alot of powers from the Speaker which is the same in any country. The PM and Speaker there is a rotation. The President and the senate chair are christians and they are rotated also. President has veto rights and can return back the bill to Parliament or the senate.
15 district law as it is now but full proportional and no sect allotment in Parliament.

Once that is done the church needs to work with the youth. Work needs to be created and the youth of the country need to participate in all walks of life. Just saying mafe cheghel and staying at home until 40 and then get married and having a child at 45 is not good enough. There has to be emphasis on family life and that it is important. Without children there is no family and the church is not rich if there are no youth or children attending it. The church also needs to give incentives to christian families. It needs to build on land and give apartments for cheaper or half the price for the christians. It needs to also give christians a reduction of schooling fees. The politicians that are christians need to be in this also. People listen to their politicians more than they do to the church or the local priest.

Just not looking at the issue at hand will not take it away. We need to look at this and tackle it head on. I for one live in Australia married in early 2016 and had a child in 2017 and another in early 2018. If there was a job back home for my wife and I I would go back in an instant. There is nothing better than one living in his country you just need the conditions to be there so once can return home.

Eventhough I am orthodox I have to salute our maronite brothers who are the ONLY christians in the ME who have held their heads high. Most of the other christians are just cronies of the regime that is in place. I have full confidence that we all of us as christians can achieve what we want and those who remain in the country to remain and those who are outside like myself to return. It just takes a common vision from all the christian parties and the church and some work.
 

Sayyid Muki

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Of course they will have the choice to live wherever they want. USA is a federal country do you thing a guy from Florida can't relocate and live in California? Canada is a federal Country and a frenchie from the state of Quebec is totally free to move to english Ontario Or Alberta. The UK is a federal country, each part having its own parliament and first minister, but nothing forbid a scot to go and live in London or an Englishman to go and settle in Glasgow. Nigeria is a federal country and you have Muslims living in Christians states and Christians living in Muslim states. Federalism doesn't mean apartheid. Spain is a federal country and half the people of Catalonia are Spanish from other parts of Spain.

However, each autonomous entity will keep and protect its specificity. Quebec will adopt french as it's official language, with laws that reflects the history, culture way of thinking of the majority of the people living in Quebec, same for Scotland, Wales, Switzerland's cantons etc.

A Christian federal state in Lebanon will work the same way. Its job would be to keep a Christian face to the districts under its control (maybe they wanna teach lebanese written in Latin letters the Saïd Akl way, or make the Aramaic language a second official language, or to implement civil wedding etc.), without being closed to the other communities. Real-estate transfer for people from different areas will of course not be forbidden but regulated, which in my opinion is much better than vetoing any Muslim buying in Christian areas like it is unfortunately happening in a few municipalities actually.

So what happens when Muslims start moving to Christian federal state (which is more likely to have a higher standard of living, thus more attractive), eventually outnumbering the Christians? I am assuming you would do away with the 50/50 parliamentary equation, so when Muslims start outnumbering Christians, they will start winning more and more elections. In time enough to transform the Christian State into a Muslim one.

Federalism isn't enough to safeguard Lebanon's Christians.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Of course they will have the choice to live wherever they want. USA is a federal country do you thing a guy from Florida can't relocate and live in California? Canada is a federal Country and a frenchie from the state of Quebec is totally free to move to english Ontario Or Alberta. The UK is a federal country, each part having its own parliament and first minister, but nothing forbid a scot to go and live in London or an Englishman to go and settle in Glasgow. Nigeria is a federal country and you have Muslims living in Christians states and Christians living in Muslim states. Federalism doesn't mean apartheid. Spain is a federal country and half the people of Catalonia are Spanish from other parts of Spain.

However, each autonomous entity will keep and protect its specificity. Quebec will adopt french as it's official language, with laws that reflects the history, culture way of thinking of the majority of the people living in Quebec, same for Scotland, Wales, Switzerland's cantons etc.

A Christian federal state in Lebanon will work the same way. Its job would be to keep a Christian face to the districts under its control (maybe they wanna teach lebanese written in Latin letters the Saïd Akl way, or make the Aramaic language a second official language, or to implement civil wedding etc.), without being closed to the other communities. Real-estate transfer for people from different areas will of course not be forbidden but regulated, which in my opinion is much better than vetoing any Muslim buying in Christian areas like it is unfortunately happening in a few municipalities actually.

It is amazing how you can easily market federalism and cutting the already tiny piece of cake into shreds. The likes of Switzerland and Belgium are considered small countries in Europe. Even so, they are many times bigger than Lebanon.

When it comes to opposing secularism and adopting civil marriage, you quickly tell us that secularism is in the spirit and not in the text. But you expect Lebanese people to have federal units where they all live together and can live freely anywhere within the federation. You are even using Canadians as an example. Shouldn't federalism be in the spirit too and not in text?

It is apparent that your quest for federalism is not a just cause. It is in a bid to restrict other communities with higher birth rate and to divide the country into "my own area and your own area", which in reality, even though not legally, exists in Lebanon today. Everyone lives in restrictive quarters and in isolation, instead or uniting and intermingling and living and working together as one people of the same country.

That federalism will remain a wet dream. You can start f****ng more and giving birth to more children. It seems Gebran's bid for expat votes has failed because the christian majority expats theory is simply a fickle imagination. There are still more Muslims, or should I say more shia Lebanese abroad than there are Christians and same as inside Lebanon.

If you guys have a shred of fairness and dignity, you should start questioning the veracity of the 1932 colonial census that claimed and gave you a majority (on whose back you formed the apartheid confessional system) and insist on having a new census of all Lebanese, both in Lebanon and abroad, today before tomorrow.

Thankfully, Lebanese can now reclaim their lost citizenship abroad by filling a form at the embassies. That is great. After the process has been done and those second and third or even fourth generation Lebanese have reclaimed their citizenship, it is time for us to have a census. Let us know where we all stand and what are our sizes. Lebanese abroad and inside the country. That shouldn't scare you guys! If calling for federalism is done boldly, call for a census. Then let us have a fair system.

your entire quest and confusion toying around by proposing different systems and refusing the notion of secularism, under the deceit that it is the muslims that are not ready is all in a bid to hold on to an unfair advantage the Christians have held on to since independence thanks to mother france and its colonial legacy, and to this day in Lebanon.

We also deserve to live in a descent country of ours, where we belong and its belongs to us without any undue or unfair advantage towards any group or individual. A country whereby no one group arrogate itself the unfair advantage of being the lords of the nation. You guys are the culprits of sectarianism and the confessional system and it's preservers. Yet you want to preach about your superiority and your right to a better life than others, whether through a Democratic majoritarian process or through a tyrannical, apartheid and dictatorial sectarian system where you lord it over others because you are what you are: Christians.

You have already caused the country enough damage since independence with your superiority complex and racist policies and discrimination to make sure you keep lording it over others or else the country will not move forward. We have already had a civil war. Its time to realize that undue advantage is no guaranty of peaceful coexistence. It is only fairness, justice and tolerance that will make us love you and you to love us, if you even care about that.

And lest we forget, while you superior species of Maronites/Christians from outer space ask for federalism (of course I am not pointing finger at all my Christian and Maronite brothers and sisters), let me remind you, that you lot of lunatics need the Muslims to keep you at peace among yourselves. You killed yourselves during the civil war, out of thirst for power, more than the Muslims killed you. Today we have sunni-shia rivalry stoked up by Saudi-iranian rivalry. What is the explanation for Maronite-maronite killings and rivalry? You are a curse unto yourselves with an unquenchable thirst for power and domination. It is greed. It is racism. It is evil. It is discrimination. Calm your souls down. It is simply sick! Your likes are the problem of Lebanon. Your insatiable quest for power and domination through discrimination and divisions is an attitude contrary to everything a nationalist would preach or work for. Lebanon should not and will not be divided more than it already is. It shall prevail.
 
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