Changing the Lebanese Political System: What are the Alternatives to the Present Sectarian System

Rafidi

Legendary Member
@LVV

We don't need another system. We need to revoke the 94 law which has damaged the christian demographics from Baabda, Zahle to Akkar and even Tripoli. Once the law is revoked the 300K alot of which are not even on Lebanese land would have been stricken off the electoral lists. The voter list would then be at least 43% christian.

The christians then need to work on a law that suits them. Taef needs to be implemented so we can have a senate. Half of its members christians and the other half muslims. Nothing can be passed without 7/10 approval. This will take away alot of powers from the Speaker which is the same in any country. The PM and Speaker there is a rotation. The President and the senate chair are christians and they are rotated also. President has veto rights and can return back the bill to Parliament or the senate.
15 district law as it is now but full proportional and no sect allotment in Parliament.

Once that is done the church needs to work with the youth. Work needs to be created and the youth of the country need to participate in all walks of life. Just saying mafe cheghel and staying at home until 40 and then get married and having a child at 45 is not good enough. There has to be emphasis on family life and that it is important. Without children there is no family and the church is not rich if there are no youth or children attending it. The church also needs to give incentives to christian families. It needs to build on land and give apartments for cheaper or half the price for the christians. It needs to also give christians a reduction of schooling fees. The politicians that are christians need to be in this also. People listen to their politicians more than they do to the church or the local priest.

Just not looking at the issue at hand will not take it away. We need to look at this and tackle it head on. I for one live in Australia married in early 2016 and had a child in 2017 and another in early 2018. If there was a job back home for my wife and I I would go back in an instant. There is nothing better than one living in his country you just need the conditions to be there so once can return home.

Eventhough I am orthodox I have to salute our maronite brothers who are the ONLY christians in the ME who have held their heads high. Most of the other christians are just cronies of the regime that is in place. I have full confidence that we all of us as christians can achieve what we want and those who remain in the country to remain and those who are outside like myself to return. It just takes a common vision from all the christian parties and the church and some work.


I am all for revoking whatever law. Can we also have a census both abroad and in Lebanon, after all your second, third and fourth generation christian Lebanese who had lost or abandoned their citizenship reclaim it?

Let us know where we stand and how we can build a fair, just and modern and progressive country for all Lebanese, regardless who is majority and who is not majority. Let us have a census (home and abroad) and the next step would be a new constitution and abolishing the confessional system and implementing secularism. The Muslims are ready to move the country ahead. Are the Christians ready to move ahead and leave the colonial past behind?

Dont you feel ashame, as a Lebanese, that for you to be president, right down to a school teacher, it is based on your sect identity and not based on merit or any sort of fairness?

We are the most racist people on earth. Even towards ourselves. And that racism is from hatred. Let's face it's, we are full of shit and hate. We discriminate against ourselves and then take that racist spirit to discriminate against blacks, and Asians.
 
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!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
I am all for revoking whatever law. Can we also have a census both abroad and in Lebanon, after all your second, third and fourth generation christian Lebanese who had lost or abandoned their citizenship reclaim it?

Let us know where we stand and how we can build a fair, just and modern and progressive country for all Lebanese, regardless who is majority and who is not majority. Let us have a census (home and abroad) and the next step would be a new constitution and abolishing the confessional system and implementing secularism. The Muslims are ready to move the country ahead. Are the Christians ready to move ahead and leave the colonial past behind?

Dont you feel ashame, as a Lebanese, that for you to be president, right down to a school teacher, it is based on your sect identity and not based on merit or any sort of fairness?

We are the most racist people on earth. Even towards ourselves. And that racism is from hatred. Let's face it's, we are full of shit and hate. We discriminate against ourselves and then take that racist spirit to discriminate against blacks, and Asians.

You cannot blame a minority in the region for being scared and wanting to hold on to what is has left. The christians in the country are the only ones in the whole middle east 500 million of them who have some sort of power in their homeland. The rest in the Jarab world are just dhimmis. Lets have decentralisation and a senate and then step by step. We then can implement an electoral law with no sect allotment and we can reduce the MPs to 100. More than enougj for this country. But we want the 94 law revoked. It has changed the whole sectarian demographics of the country from the Jarabs in Hadath to Zahle to Wadi Khaled. For me I dont care if the PM is shia and the senate chair is Armenian and the Speaker is sunni. We want a fair law for everyone and all of them to be under the law.
Also, HA arms need to be in the hands of the state. Defense strategy call it as you please but arms should be united under the state.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
You cannot blame a minority in the region for being scared and wanting to hold on to what is has left. The christians in the country are the only ones in the whole middle east 500 million of them who have some sort of power in their homeland. The rest in the Jarab world are just dhimmis. Lets have decentralisation and a senate and then step by step. We then can implement an electoral law with no sect allotment and we can reduce the MPs to 100. More than enougj for this country. But we want the 94 law revoked. It has changed the whole sectarian demographics of the country from the Jarabs in Hadath to Zahle to Wadi Khaled. For me I dont care if the PM is shia and the senate chair is Armenian and the Speaker is sunni. We want a fair law for everyone and all of them to be under the law.
Also, HA arms need to be in the hands of the state. Defense strategy call it as you please but arms should be united under the state.

I very much agree with you and understand your point. You made valid points.

I think this is 2018. We have grown as a country. Lebanon will soon be 100 years old.

Lebanon is made up of minorities. The minorities are the majority in Lebanon.

It is time for every Lebanese to understand that Lebanon is a final homeland for all Lebanese and only through one another, as Lebanese can we exist and survive together.

There can be a defense strategy. However, the resistance must be protected by the state and not weakened or disarmed. It must be viewed as a state asset to protect, secure and preserve Lebanon from external threats. The resistance has proved itself to be a success story for Lebanon and its continued existence. The weapons of HA are not a threat to Lebanon. The threat to Lebanon are small arms. When two idiots have a quarrel like women, they bring out guns to vent their anger and shoot at each other. Two fools engage in road rage, and they bring out pistols. This is jungle life! There is need for arms control in Lebanon. HA is more or less stuck in the middle. In the middle of those who abuse it as cover to justify illegal arms and reckless behavior, and those who patronize foreign agendas to blame (and bring down) HA for the reckless behavior of those who have no connection to the resistance. What I think, before defense strategy and state control of the resistance, is first and foremost the state agreeing to protect the resistance under its cover and also agreeing to control small arms. For any defense strategy, it must be ruled out clearly that the resistance is a right of existence and to survival and must be protected in the face of external threats by all Lebanese.

I see no reason Muslims and Christians cannot coexist in Lebanon in a secular state as one people and equal citizens under the same law, having a head and his vice from the two religions working side by side in the interest of the country in all positions. What I am strongly against is the sectarian discrimination which cedes certain positions to certain sects. Institutionalization of racism, discrimination and sectarianism is what we have as a form of government under the guise of coexistence and consensus. That is not coexistence. It is institutionalized fear and division. Every post in the country should be open to all Lebanese irrespective of sect or religion. Coexistence will come in, when the president is Sunni and the vice is Protestant reflecting a balance. That is when the head of a position is from religion X, the vice is from religion Y. However the barrier in the face of Lebanese to hold certain positions because of the sect they were born into is institutionalized racism. It is the Lebanese caste system. It is a shame in modern times.
 

Libnene Qu7

Super Ultra Senior Member
Orange Room Supporter
I am a bit confused here, @Rachel Corrie .

Clearly you are anti-federalism, which is your right, but aren't you also a staunch supporter of HA - the very defeinition of federalism and only party in Lebanon that is actually implementing it? You speak with vicious hatred against the Christian community and blame all of Lebanon's problems on them, and yet you completely and absolutely support a party that is sectarian in origin, make up, and execution.

Either be anti-federalism in principle or accept it, but don't cherry pick. If you are truly anti-federalism, you will start demanding for HA to merge in with the army, further strengthening the unified and undivided state. Otherwise you're just spouting sectarian and racist venom.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I am a bit confused here, @Rachel Corrie .

Clearly you are anti-federalism, which is your right, but aren't you also a staunch supporter of HA - the very defeinition of federalism and only party in Lebanon that is actually implementing it? You speak with vicious hatred against the Christian community and blame all of Lebanon's problems on them, and yet you completely and absolutely support a party that is sectarian in origin, make up, and execution.

Either be anti-federalism in principle or accept it, but don't cherry pick. If you are truly anti-federalism, you will start demanding for HA to merge in with the army, further strengthening the unified and undivided state. Otherwise you're just spouting sectarian and racist venom.

It's also worth noting that he changed his avatar to Franjieh on the same day Franjieh wished death upon Bassil. Could he be more sectarian and trollish?
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
I very much agree with you and understand your point. You made valid points.

I think this is 2018. We have grown as a country. Lebanon will soon be 100 years old.

Lebanon is made up of minorities. The minorities are the majority in Lebanon.

It is time for every Lebanese to understand that Lebanon is a final homeland for all Lebanese and only through one another, as Lebanese can we exist and survive together.

There can be a defense strategy. However, the resistance must be protected by the state and not weakened or disarmed. It must be viewed as a state asset to protect, secure and preserve Lebanon from external threats. The resistance has proved itself to be a success story for Lebanon and its continued existence. The weapons of HA are not a threat to Lebanon. The threat to Lebanon are small arms. When two idiots have a quarrel like women, they bring out guns to vent their anger and shoot at each other. Two fools engage in road rage, and they bring out pistols. This is jungle life! There is need for arms control in Lebanon. HA is more or less stuck in the middle. In the middle of those who abuse it as cover to justify illegal arms and reckless behavior, and those who patronize foreign agendas to blame (and bring down) HA for the reckless behavior of those who have no connection to the resistance. What I think, before defense strategy and state control of the resistance, is first and foremost the state agreeing to protect the resistance under its cover and also agreeing to control small arms. For any defense strategy, it must be ruled out clearly that the resistance is a right of existence and to survival and must be protected in the face of external threats by all Lebanese.

I see no reason Muslims and Christians cannot coexist in Lebanon in a secular state as one people and equal citizens under the same law, having a head and his vice from the two religions working side by side in the interest of the country in all positions. What I am strongly against is the sectarian discrimination which cedes certain positions to certain sects. Institutionalization of racism, discrimination and sectarianism is what we have as a form of government under the guise of coexistence and consensus. That is not coexistence. It is institutionalized fear and division. Every post in the country should be open to all Lebanese irrespective of sect or religion. Coexistence will come in, when the president is Sunni and the vice is Protestant reflecting a balance. That is when the head of a position is from religion X, the vice is from religion Y. However the barrier in the face of Lebanese to hold certain positions because of the sect they were born into is institutionalized racism. It is the Lebanese caste system. It is a shame in modern times.

The resistance eventhough it is successful needs to hand over its arms to the state/army. The need for all arms to be under the state same as syria, jordan, iran, australia and every country. When the enemy attacks then it is the responsibility of our armed force first and foremost to stop and repel the attack. I am not against the resistance in general and i hate Israel but we need our state to be strong.
Other than that i am all for political amendment.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I am a bit confused here, @Rachel Corrie .

Clearly you are anti-federalism, which is your right, but aren't you also a staunch supporter of HA - the very defeinition of federalism and only party in Lebanon that is actually implementing it? You speak with vicious hatred against the Christian community and blame all of Lebanon's problems on them, and yet you completely and absolutely support a party that is sectarian in origin, make up, and execution.

Either be anti-federalism in principle or accept it, but don't cherry pick. If you are truly anti-federalism, you will start demanding for HA to merge in with the army, further strengthening the unified and undivided state. Otherwise you're just spouting sectarian and racist venom.

I have replied on the points you raised earlier. Please review the thread. If you, however, cannot find the answers to your questions, let me know and I will repeat my position. I am not blaming the "Christian community" as a whole. The Christian community in Lebanon is not a single, homogenous community. And the Christian community generally, is as much a victim of the Lebanese caste system as everyone else. I am talking about colonial policies which christian leaders imposed on the nation in connivance with French colonial authorities. Those policies are still haunting us as a nation and preventing us from having a modern country of law and order where all citizens live in respect and equally. Lebanon as it is presently is not a modern country; if it can referred to as one in the first place, that is only on paper and not on ground.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
The resistance eventhough it is successful needs to hand over its arms to the state/army. The need for all arms to be under the state same as syria, jordan, iran, australia and every country. When the enemy attacks then it is the responsibility of our armed force first and foremost to stop and repel the attack. I am not against the resistance in general and i hate Israel but we need our state to be strong.
Other than that i am all for political amendment.

If the state is ready to defend it's people and territories, that is fantastic. But a state built on colonial mischief and sectarian caste system cannot and has not proven to be impartial in protecting all of its territories and citizens. When Israel attacks southern villages, or bombs dahieh, is our government ready to use the Lebanese Army to launch rockets on tel aviv and Haifa? Will our govt and army do that with the sellouts and rogues whom other Lebanese vote for into Parliament? That is the reason we need a new system in place with a true Lebanese leader to represent and speak in the name of the people.

Let the state show willingness and prove it is capable in carrying out what the resistance has done and is doing and I believe HA will be more than happy to handover those responsibilities. But trust me, if HA wants to handover such responsibilities, some in the govt will not accept them. They prefer to continue criticism and continue talking and trading with words. The presence of an armed resistance movement in Lebanon is a valuable asset to them. They use every opportunity to make empty criticism to attract foreign patrons and sponsorship. The presence of the resistance has given them worth.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
It's also worth noting that he changed his avatar to Franjieh on the same day Franjieh wished death upon Bassil. Could he be more sectarian and trollish?

Yes, very sectarian. Suleiman Franjieh is a Shi'a grand ayatollah from Qom.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
We are about going into four pages in this thread. None have posited any alternative to the current sectarian system. All the views have to do with how to consolidate more sectarian power for one community and pulling red herrings to avoid the topic. You guys are an evidence why your party is not even the solution to Lebanon and Gebran Bassil has more than convincingly demonstrated that.

We got expat voting and reclaiming citizenship with the hope of expanding Christian votes. Its all policies that have to do with the sect. That will continue to weaken Lebanon. And I am not against expat voting or reclaiming citizenship. I'm all for it. But it must be done with the intention of building a fair state for all and not to the benefit of one....

When you promote policies that are parochial and which aim to favor one over the other, it is a battle of the sects. It is not a battle for all of Lebanon.

Promote policies like changing and uprooting the confessional system, civil marriage, an electoral law based on proportionality and Lebanon as a single electoral district (flush out sectarian voting), etc

When every policy is centered on sect and religion, Lebanon will continue to wallow in the disease of sectarianism. Institutionalized sectarianism. We all will continue to cry and blame each other without healing the wound that is the source of all problems for Lebanon and the cause that makes Lebanese flee their country. You will have no moral high ground to preach secularism or accusing others of being sectarian.

The early days of the FPM and the return of President Aoun were promising. With the Aoun days receding, and the basil days ahead, the hope looks bleak. Another feudal lord riding the tide of sectarianism and sectarian policies for selfish gains.
 

Achilles

Active Member
It is amazing how you can easily market federalism and cutting the already tiny piece of cake into shreds. The likes of Switzerland and Belgium are considered small countries in Europe. Even so, they are many times bigger than Lebanon.

Saint Kitts and Nevis is a country situated in the lesser Antilles. Its size is 261 Km2. You know how big 261 Km2 is? It's 40 time smaller than Lebanon. 1/40. It's roughly half the size of the Chouf District and 1/3 of the Size of Akkar. Baalbek district alone is 8.6 time bigger. Well Saint Kitts and Nevis is a federal country formed by two federated states: St-Kitts (size 174 Km2) and Nevis (87 Km2 the size of Beirut and it's suburb) - Micronesia is also a federal state. It's size is 702 Km2 (15 times smaller than Lebanon) - So Lebanon with a size of 10452 Km2 looks like a giant compared to these two expemples. So size will not be a problem. Belgium is only 3 times bigger than Lebanon and Switzerland 4 times.

But I agree with you about the Census. We need a Census. I am completely against the policy followed by the main Christian parties to ignore the problem or to refuse any census after the 1932 census. We need a Census to know the reality on the ground, and to build on it.

I also don't understand your aggressive tone. I don't consider at all Christians or Maronites to be better, smarter or to have more qualities than Shia or Sunnis. I am expressing my point of view about adopting a federal system in Lebanon to replace the current system. Am not insulting you.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Let us deal with the question of electoral law.

How many individuals can contest today as independent and as individuals and expect to win? Very tiny possibility.

If Lebanon was a single electoral district and with a proportionality law, individuals can garner enough votes and break free of the tight noose the traditional sectarian parties have placed around the necks of Lebanese. Even with 50/50 seats in Parliament, any Maronite and any Shia or druze or orthodox etc can individually contest.

With this current law, you have to bend over for one of the heavy weights to be part of their electoral list to be voted for.

I am very certain, it is not in the interest of the FPM, the FM, PSP or even HA and amal to have Lebanon on proportionality electoral law and Lebanon as a single electoral district. They prefer to keep dividing the country into portions that each bloc has a strangle hold over. No space for electoral competition.
 
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Rafidi

Legendary Member
Saint Kitts and Nevis is a country situated in the lesser Antilles. Its size is 261 Km2. You know how big 261 Km2 is? It's 40 time smaller than Lebanon. 1/40. It's roughly half the size of the Chouf District and 1/3 of the Size of Akkar. Baalbek district alone is 8.6 time bigger. Well Saint Kitts and Nevis is a federal country formed by two federated states: St-Kitts (size 174 Km2) and Nevis (87 Km2 the size of Beirut and it's suburb) - Micronesia is also a federal state. It's size is 702 Km2 (15 times smaller than Lebanon) - So Lebanon with a size of 10452 Km2 looks like a giant compared to these two expemples. So size will not be a problem. Belgium is only 3 times bigger than Lebanon and Switzerland 4 times.

But I agree with you about the Census. We need a Census. I am completely against the policy followed by the main Christian parties to ignore the problem or to refuse any census after the 1932 census. We need a Census to know the reality on the ground, and to build on it.

I also don't understand your aggressive tone. I don't consider at all Christians or Maronites to be better, smarter or to have more qualities than Shia or Sunnis. I am expressing my point of view about adopting a federal system in Lebanon to replace the current system. Am not insulting you.

If a federal system is chosen by the majority of Lebanese, so be it. But you cannot impose it because it favors you or favors only one segment of society. I am all for Lebanese collectively deciding their future and building their country the way they like it. But how are we going to reach a decision on what form of governance to choose? A referendum?

Our current leaders are all happy at the moment. They have all the limelight, money and power they ever dreamt of. They dont need change. It is the poor Lebanese who is suffering the consequences, whether of sectarian infighting, lack of employment, emigration, wars etc. They wouldnt want to change the status quo.

We are soon having an election. We are the only country on earth with elections that does not have clear winners and losers. The same crop of leaders and the same parties share the country into electoral districts and they milk the citizens. All the districts are under the strangle hold of big parties.

Let's say you and I aspire to become active in politics and to contest for Parliament. You will be relegated to your electoral district. And you know what that means!
 

Achilles

Active Member
If a federal system is chosen by the majority of Lebanese, so be it. But you cannot impose it because it favors you or favors only one segment of society. I am all for Lebanese collectively deciding their future and building their country the way they like it. But how are we going to reach a decision on what form of governance to choose? A referendum?

Of course it cannot be imposed. Any change to the current system needs an amendment to the constitution and for this needs a majority of 3/4 or 4/5 in the parliament - dunno exactly the right quorum. So if federalism is to be implemented someday it will need the OK of everybody. In my own and very humble opinion the best time to at least start considering and debating this is after those elections. As I said before better to implement federalism than to let each municipality to act as a federated state of its own. I don't believe in true secularism in Lebanon at least not in the near or mid-future. So the alternative to federalism will be to keep the 50-50 system even if Christians drop to 10% of the voters.

We are soon having an election. We are the only country on earth with elections that does not have clear winners and losers. The same crop of leaders and the same parties share the country into electoral districts and they milk the citizens. All the districts are under the strangle hold of big parties.

This is because of the current sectarian system. No clear majority in parliament and the government in fact mirrors the parliament. The government is Like a mini parliament where nearly everybody need to be represented. With a federal system you get rid of this confessional oddity. Parliament becomes elected without sectarian consideration, same for government. A Senate (not necessarily elected on a religious basis, could be elected on a regional/district basis) will balance the parliament's work. The federal government will be responsible for the foreign policy, and the federated regions for their internal policy.
 

Lebanon_not_Arabic

Well-Known Member
I think this is 2018. We have grown as a country. Lebanon will soon be 100 years old.

Lebanon is made up of minorities. The minorities are the majority in Lebanon.

It is time for every Lebanese to understand that Lebanon is a final homeland for all Lebanese and only through one another, as Lebanese can we exist and survive together.
I agree 100%

And we should also be aware that internal cohesion is stronger than getting missiles from a third party.... a theocratic regime.

There can be a defense strategy.
.... where all Lebanese are involved.

However, the resistance must be protected by the state
Like in which country(ies)?

and not weakened or disarmed.
What will happen to Hezbollah if the regime is toppled in Tehran?

It must be viewed as a state asset to protect
Since Hezbollah is not created by nor receives orders from the Lebanese State, the latter cannot claim that precious asset.

...secure and preserve Lebanon from external threats.
That’s why, like all countries, and as Lebanese from all sects, we believe that it is the responsibility of the Lebanese government and the Lebanese Army.

The resistance has proved itself to be a success story for Lebanon and its continued existence.
Why don’t you call it by its real name « Al mukawama al Islamiyya fi Lubnan »?

The resistance has proved itself to be a success story for Lebanon
It’s rather a success story for Iran in Lebanon.

The weapons of HA are not a threat to Lebanon. The threat to Lebanon are small arms.
No problem with Fajr, Zelzal, and their cousins, (wa ma adraka mann homm al cousins)... our main issues is with AK-47s, pistols, revolvers and hand grenades...

What I think, before defense strategy and state control of the resistance, is first and foremost the state agreeing to protect the resistance under its cover ...
The state should be able to protect everyone equally.

For any defense strategy, it must be ruled out clearly that the resistance is a right of existence and to survival and must be protected in the face of external threats by all Lebanese.
Since the resistance concerns all Lebanese, and not a specific sect, then all Lebanese should have a say in its fate. But if it matters to a specific sect, to protect a specific sect, then should other Lebanese be concerned?

Were you concerned with the fate of the Lebanese Resistance?

Should i blame you if you weren’t ?

I see no reason Muslims and Christians cannot coexist in Lebanon in a secular state as one people and equal citizens under the same law
Is the Islamic Republic of Iran working to make out of Lebanon a secular state?

I smell Hezbara...
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
I agree 100%

And we should also be aware that internal cohesion is stronger than getting missiles from a third party.... a theocratic regime.

.... where all Lebanese are involved.

Like in which country(ies)?


What will happen to Hezbollah if the regime is toppled in Tehran?

Since Hezbollah is not created by nor receives orders from the Lebanese State, the latter cannot claim that precious asset.

That’s why, like all countries, and as Lebanese from all sects, we believe that it is the responsibility of the Lebanese government and the Lebanese Army.

Why don’t you call it by its real name « Al mukawama al Islamiyya fi Lubnan »?

It’s rather a success story for Iran in Lebanon.

No problem with Fajr, Zelzal, and their cousins, (wa ma adraka mann homm al cousins)... our main issues is with AK-47s, pistols, revolvers and hand grenades...

The state should be able to protect everyone equally.

Since the resistance concerns all Lebanese, and not a specific sect, then all Lebanese should have a say in its fate. But if it matters to a specific sect, to protect a specific sect, then should other Lebanese be concerned?

Were you concerned with the fate of the Lebanese Resistance?

Should i blame you if you weren’t ?

Is the Islamic Republic of Iran working to make out of Lebanon a secular state?

I smell Hezbara...

Pointless strawman.
 
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