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Changing the Lebanese Political System: What are the Alternatives to the Present Sectarian System

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Supporters and defenders of a foreign theocracy trying to convince Lebanese in general, and Lebanese Christians in particular about the benefits/advantages of secularism and the disadvantages of sectarianism and tribalism, in the most tribal and sectarian country of the Middle East.

Am I the only one to see the irony of this?

There is no irony. Chavez, who was a catholic and president of Venezuela was a strong ally of Iran. Assad is a baathist and an ally of Iran. Russia was a former communist state and an ally.

Whatever form of governance Iran or the people of Iran choose to follow is not my business as a lebanese. What concerns me is how good and kind Iran has been to Lebanon. If it wasn't for the weapons of Iran, you won't have a country called Lebanon today as we know it. Whether from the Zionist threat of occupation or the takfiri threat of invasion, forced conversions and sectarian killings of Shias and Christians. You have to see the irony and the hypocrisy in your stance.

Further, Iran is a country of 80 million people and at least 90% follow one religion. And the minorities are far from oppressed. In fact, Jews have seats reserved for them in the Iranian parliament. Democracy is meant to be the rule of the majority and the respect for the minority. And that is exactly what Iran has done. You can call it theocracy or whatever adjective you choose.

And for your info, Iran is a theocracy through a referendum and a popular vote. It did not become a theocracy like our country became a sectarian democracy, if it is a democracy at all. The Iranians had a chance to have a say in a referendum. I was not given a chance, I have not been given a chance and neither was my father or grandfather given a chance to vote for a confessional or sectarian state in Lebanon. Let us have a referendum in Lebanon on the confessional system today and I promise you and any sectarian bigot like yourself, that majority of Lebanese from all sects will choose a civil or secular state ahead or instead of a racist, apartheid confessional system. The so called National Pact, which was neither national nor a pact, is unconstitutional and belongs to the rubbish can of history. It is pure trash that every lebanese should be ashamed of having in his country. It paints us as sectarian bigots and intolerant hordes of beasts who mistrust themselves and yet we belong to the same country. We have one country and one blood and we must have one law for all and a state for all lebanese irrespective of religion.
 

Randomiser

New Member
1- Presidential System and bicameral Parliament
2- Executive Branch represented by President and Vice President, backed by cabinet approved by the lower house.
3- Both President and Vice President directly elected by the People on the same ballot, President and Vice President should be from different religions.

4- lower House shall be elected on non-sectarian basis, one man one vote or PR on Lebanon district. Shall have most of the legislative authority, approve and give confidence to ministers.

5- Senate elected on Sectarian basis, equally between Muslims and Christians and proportionally between sects. The Senate shall have the authority to amend the constitution with the lower house, approve President's appointments for Constitutional Council and Military/Security posts, and Important Judicial posts.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
1- Presidential System and bicameral Parliament
2- Executive Branch represented by President and Vice President, backed by cabinet approved by the lower house.
3- Both President and Vice President directly elected by the People on the same ballot, President and Vice President should be from different religions.

4- lower House shall be elected on non-sectarian basis, one man one vote or PR on Lebanon district. Shall have most of the legislative authority, approve and give confidence to ministers.

5- Senate elected on Sectarian basis, equally between Muslims and Christians and proportionally between sects. The Senate shall have the authority to amend the constitution with the lower house, approve President's appointments for Constitutional Council and Military/Security posts, and Important Judicial posts.

So affectively leaving the President with no powers, well done. There will be no Vice. Only Vice is PM and Speaker position.
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Go amend the constitution and take the time limits off and have the Vice PM also sign with the time limits and the shia can have the MOF 2ella abad l abidin aminnnnnnn!!!
 

Randomiser

New Member
So affectively leaving the President with no powers, well done. There will be no Vice. Only Vice is PM and Speaker position.

In Presidential Systems, there is NO PM. The President is the head of the state and head of the government. He appoints and dismiss ministers, issue government policies and directives and determine the foreign policy. Also Appoints heads of judicial, military and security branches with the approval of the senate. How can the President be useless?

Usually, the Vice President is also the President of the Senate. Other than that his only job would be advisory to the president with a reserved seat in the Cabinet. Vice President would effectively become Acting President incase the President is no longer able to bear his responsibilities OR due to death or resignation.

In Lebanon case,
 

Thawra # Furoshima

Well-Known Member
I have replied on the points you raised earlier. Please review the thread. If you, however, cannot find the answers to your questions, let me know and I will repeat my position. I am not blaming the "Christian community" as a whole. The Christian community in Lebanon is not a single, homogenous community. And the Christian community generally, is as much a victim of the Lebanese caste system as everyone else. I am talking about colonial policies which christian leaders imposed on the nation in connivance with French colonial authorities. Those policies are still haunting us as a nation and preventing us from having a modern country of law and order where all citizens live in respect and equally. Lebanon as it is presently is not a modern country; if it can referred to as one in the first place, that is only on paper and not on ground.
Really ignorant triple sectarian ignorant
This country is still living on the structure built by the French
The Maronites and Christians have their fault but they are accepting the modern world
Are you truly ready to be citizens of Of the modern world
I will tell you let’s abolish sectarianism in politics
Let’s make a Civil marriage law compulsory with one wife maximum
Let’s guarantee protection for gay people and sexual liberty
And forget about federalism
Let’s HA surrender it’s weapon
And I m signing on this
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
In Presidential Systems, there is NO PM. The President is the head of the state and head of the government. He appoints and dismiss ministers, issue government policies and directives and determine the foreign policy. Also Appoints heads of judicial, military and security branches with the approval of the senate. How can the President be useless?

Usually, the Vice President is also the President of the Senate. Other than that his only job would be advisory to the president with a reserved seat in the Cabinet. Vice President would effectively become Acting President incase the President is no longer able to bear his responsibilities OR due to death or resignation.

In Lebanon case,

Let me guess the Vice President is from the shia sect?

For me I rather the same setup but with a few amendments.

1) No time frame for President to sign.
2) Vice PM need signature also. So President, PM, Vice PM and MOF.
3) MOF can go to shia.

This will mean that the four largest sects in the country have veto in the executive. 2 christian and 2 muslims. I would place the only way to override the veto is getting 2/3 votes in the government.

A senate which has power to amend or send back bills to Parliament. The senate is half half christian muslim with a christian head rotation with druze. The senate also to approve or send back needs 2/3.

Then a 15 district electoral law no sect allotment.
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
Lebanon should evolve into a federal system
This is the only logical straightforward solution and it’s easy to implement
If we look at the current electoral districts we can realize that
Few areas would require bit more creativity like akkar and chouf where demographic mix is high and it can be solved by a couple of enclave / exclave
Federalism will make Lebanese just love the idea of Lebanon since it will create a huge dynamism and positive competition
For example if you look at the UAE
Dubai is just next to sharja but they are very different on the cultural and political level
I never heard anyone saying that Emirati are backward minded since they are a federation
Here if you say you support federalism you are directly labeled as racist
The only reason is that some sects just want to swallow the whole thing
Why to share it ??
They rely on demography and foreign money to expand buy more land and chase the other group
This is the exact definition of genocide
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
Let me guess the Vice President is from the shia sect?

For me I rather the same setup but with a few amendments.

1) No time frame for President to sign.
2) Vice PM need signature also. So President, PM, Vice PM and MOF.
3) MOF can go to shia.

This will mean that the four largest sects in the country have veto in the executive. 2 christian and 2 muslims. I would place the only way to override the veto is getting 2/3 votes in the government.

A senate which has power to amend or send back bills to Parliament. The senate is half half christian muslim with a christian head rotation with druze. The senate also to approve or send back needs 2/3.

Then a 15 district electoral law no sect allotment.
Please go check the election result and you will realize that we should stop lying to ourselves and evolve into a federal system
Some lists in Baalbek Hermel have taken Zero votes in some villages while they took All votes in the neighboring village
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
Please go check the election result and you will realize that we should stop lying to ourselves and evolve into a federal system
Some lists in Baalbek Hermel have taken Zero votes in some villages while they took All votes in the neighboring village

We should go to a federal state. Mano 3eib. Khalas its a failed state and we are just trying our utmost to keep in intact.
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
We should go to a federal state. Mano 3eib. Khalas its a failed state and we are just trying our utmost to keep in intact.
We now have the best settings to propose this
A strong president and a big representation in the parliament
It’s now or never for Lebanese Christians
Either we make it or we are doomed to disappear in two generations max
 

!Aoune32

Well-Known Member
We now have the best settings to propose this
A strong president and a big representation in the parliament
It’s now or never for Lebanese Christians
Either we make it or we are doomed to disappear in two generations max

Agreed and if not a federal state but something that look like it. The constitution needs to be amended immediately to ensure the christian presence in the country.

The christians have a lot of work to do.
 

Death To Google

New Member
Fi tnen ma tarako thread without spamming with decentralization/federalism/division while this is not on the table for any party in Lebanon.
Tamno belkon this ain't gonna happen anytime soon and Christians will stay and be just fine.
 

NAFAR

Legendary Member
Yesterday i was on the pool and i had a nice discussion with my neighbor which happens to be a secular sunnite from Beirut.
He was adovcating scularism as the only solution to Lebanon misery.
I explained to him that it is impossible and it will only lead to Political Islam taking over and controlling the country.
I gave him example about Turkey, Egypt, Jordan.... also i gave example of Lebanon muslim communities and their deep religious way of life (Except some Beirutees) after a 30 minutes debate he was convinced.
The current secterian system is OK if implemented without corruption and without some sects trying to take the other sect share.
The only possible improvement is federalism starting by decentralization.
 

Lebanon_not_Arabic

Well-Known Member
There is no irony. Chavez, who was a catholic and president of Venezuela was a strong ally of Iran. Assad is a baathist and an ally of Iran. Russia was a former communist state and an ally.
No problem in having allies all over the world as long as they are not exporting their Revolution.

Whatever form of governance Iran or the people of Iran choose to follow is not my business as a lebanese.
and whatever form of governance Lebanon or the people of Lebanon choose to follow is not their business as Iranians (exporting the Islamic Revolution, Wilayet Al Faqih).

What concerns me is how good and kind Iran has been to Lebanon.
What concerns me is how good and kind Iran has been to a specific sect in Lebanon, and how they are using that specific sect for their own interests.

If it wasn't for the weapons of Iran, you won't have a country called Lebanon today as we know it.
True, we would have had a different Lebanon, a Lebanon solely protected by a strong Lebanese army.

Whether from the Zionist threat of occupation or the takfiri threat of invasion
The threat on Lebanon is eternal but the threat is not aimed against a specific sect, that’s why we should strengthen the Lebanese army for the sake of all Lebanese.

Further, Iran is a country of 80 million people and at least 90% follow one religion. And the minorities are far from oppressed. In fact, Jews have seats reserved for them in the Iranian parliament. Democracy is meant to be the rule of the majority and the respect for the minority. And that is exactly what Iran has done. You can call it theocracy or whatever adjective you choose.
According to a report by Amnesty International in 2006:
« Despite constitutional guarantees of equality, individuals belonging to minorities in Iran, who are believed to number about half of the population of about 70 millions, are subject to an array of discriminatory laws and practices. These include land and property confiscations, denial of state and para-statal employment under the gozinesh criteria and restrictions on social, cultural, linguistic and religious freedoms which often result in other human rights violations such as the imprisonment of prisoners of conscience, grossly unfair trials of political prisoners before Revolutionary Courts, corporal punishment and use of the death penalty, as well as restrictions on movement and denial of other civil rights ».

And for your info, Iran is a theocracy through a referendum and a popular vote.
In 1979 Iranians wanted the change and thought that the Islamic Revolution will be the solution.

99.31% voted for the Islamic Revolution

0,69% voted against

Like true democratic countries, the results are similar to our democratic Baathi neighbor.

It did not become a theocracy like our country became a sectarian democracy, if it is a democracy at all.
True, it became a democratic theocracy after eliminating the opposition.

The Iranians had a chance to have a say in a referendum.
They had their chance in 1979 now we’re in 2018, what about a new referendum in Iran, like in 1979?

Let us have a referendum in Lebanon on the confessional system today and I promise you and any sectarian bigot like yourself, that majority of Lebanese from all sects will choose a civil or secular state ahead or instead of a racist, apartheid confessional system.
A sort of referendum was done 1 week ago.

Did you (or your family/friends...) vote for a party calling for a civil or secular state?

In which areas of Lebanon the competition was about secular state v/s the racist, apartheid and confessional system?

Are you (or your family/friends...) showing signs that you are aiming for a civil/secular state?

Were Hisham salman (R.I.P) and Ali al Amine (zamat min el R.I.P) also sectarian bigots ?

On a side note, a secular friend of mine is planning to invest in Nabatieh and open a liquor store. Should i encourage him to invest there?
 

Mockinggbird

New Member
Fi tnen ma tarako thread without spamming with decentralization/federalism/division while this is not on the table for any party in Lebanon.
Tamno belkon this ain't gonna happen anytime soon and Christians will stay and be just fine.
decentralization is different from federalism that is the opposite of division
Christians are not fine and we suffer from foreign money and demographic invasions
we are struggling to keep our land and our homes and they will use whatever they can to uproot us from this country
FACTS
 

The Bidenator

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
This thread is created in sequel to the below thread/posts:

 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
There is no irony. Chavez, who was a catholic and president of Venezuela was a strong ally of Iran. Assad is a baathist and an ally of Iran. Russia was a former communist state and an ally.

Whatever form of governance Iran or the people of Iran choose to follow is not my business as a lebanese. What concerns me is how good and kind Iran has been to Lebanon. If it wasn't for the weapons of Iran, you won't have a country called Lebanon today as we know it. Whether from the Zionist threat of occupation or the takfiri threat of invasion, forced conversions and sectarian killings of Shias and Christians. You have to see the irony and the hypocrisy in your stance.

Further, Iran is a country of 80 million people and at least 90% follow one religion. And the minorities are far from oppressed. In fact, Jews have seats reserved for them in the Iranian parliament. Democracy is meant to be the rule of the majority and the respect for the minority. And that is exactly what Iran has done. You can call it theocracy or whatever adjective you choose.

And for your info, Iran is a theocracy through a referendum and a popular vote. It did not become a theocracy like our country became a sectarian democracy, if it is a democracy at all. The Iranians had a chance to have a say in a referendum. I was not given a chance, I have not been given a chance and neither was my father or grandfather given a chance to vote for a confessional or sectarian state in Lebanon. Let us have a referendum in Lebanon on the confessional system today and I promise you and any sectarian bigot like yourself, that majority of Lebanese from all sects will choose a civil or secular state ahead or instead of a racist, apartheid confessional system. The so called National Pact, which was neither national nor a pact, is unconstitutional and belongs to the rubbish can of history. It is pure trash that every lebanese should be ashamed of having in his country. It paints us as sectarian bigots and intolerant hordes of beasts who mistrust themselves and yet we belong to the same country. We have one country and one blood and we must have one law for all and a state for all lebanese irrespective of religion.

You realize that, in a secular state, you can never ever include the slightest bit of religion into laws, even if you become 90% of the population...are you ok with that?
 

Randomiser

New Member
On a side note, a secular friend of mine is planning to invest in Nabatieh and open a liquor store. Should i encourage him to invest there?

There dozens of liquor stores in Nabatieh region. Hezbollah had been trying to close them through business offers or courts since years but failed badly.
 
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