Christian theology still fails at the Problem of Unnecessary Suffering

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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In argument form...

P1- An all-loving and all-powerful God would not allow his creatures to experience any evil or suffering that is unnecessary and is not directly contingent on a higher moral purpose.

P2- A lot of gruesome and unnecessary suffering happens in our world to animals and humans, which cannot be reasonably necessary or directly contingent on a higher moral purpose.

Conc: An all-loving and all-powerful God doesn't exist.

....

An all-powerful and all-loving God can not allow unnecessary suffering upon his creatures.

A loving father would avoid any unnecessary harm to his child at the expense of teaching her a lesson. But what about an all-loving, all-good God that has even a greater love for his children than a father has for his child?

Christians respond that we don't know his ultimate plan and what goes inside his head, an alternate version of "God works in mysterious ways".

But it is reasonable to claim that we live in a world where a lot of relentless suffering has happened. Too much for any real moral reason. And that modern man can teach children good morals and ethics without resorting to violence, suffering and cruelty. Why can't God?

God could have created all animals as herbivores that ate leaves and loved one another, dancing happily on the face of the Earth. Without all the cruelty, blood, dominance and suffering involved. Why was it necessary for God to create a hyena that eats a sick elephant from its anus while it is alive? Or other cruel aspects of nature too gruesome to put into words.

And what about suffering we have not witnessed... From deer burning in forest fires without anyone knowing to dinosaurs freezing to death before we can witness it. We can strongly induce those happened. But can we ever imagine the extent of suffering involved and learn anything meaningful from it? And let's say 10 deer burned in a forest. Why couldn't it have been 9 or 8? Or anything less? Why isn't suffering lessened at every opportunity if an All Loving God is watching?

As Christopher Hitchens points out, why was it not enough for God to intervene to stop a young girl from being abused, locked up and raped by her sick father for years until she died? What's the great moral lesson in having her go through all that as opposed to intervening after she had witnessed some of that suffering and propagate the moral teaching if there was one. What higher reason could ever justify anything like that?

A deranged scientist doesn't do to his lab rats what God in Christianity allows to happen to his children under the claim of "testing them". Yet his his devout followers are brainwashed into thinking that this is normal. That a loving creator could have created something as gruesome and cold. And then a hellfire afterwards to burn those he so loved. Doesn't the creation reflect the creator? If so, God is cruel and manipulative.

...

The solution is to have a different model of God that admits that He is Evil and Good or above both and not concerned with morality. And that Evil is not a fluke. But a natural aspect of God. Like a pendulum. If it swings Left it also swings Right. As other much deeper and older creeds and religions have suggested. Kisses to Yazidis.
 
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  • Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    In argument form...

    P1- An all-loving and all-powerful God would not allow his creatures to experience any evil or suffering that is unnecessary and is not directly contingent on a higher moral purpose.

    P2- A lot of gruesome and unnecessary suffering happens in our world to animals and humans, which cannot be reasonably necessary or directly contingent on a higher moral purpose.

    Conc: An all-loving and all-powerful God doesn't exist.

    ....

    An all-powerful and all-loving God can not allow unnecessary suffering upon his creatures.

    A loving father would avoid any unnecessary harm to his child at the expense of teaching her a lesson. But what about an all-loving, all-good God that has even a greater love for his children than a father has for his child?

    Christians respond that we don't know his ultimate plan and what goes inside his head, an alternate version of "God works in mysterious ways".

    But it is reasonable to claim that we live in a world where a lot of relentless suffering has happened. Too much for any real moral reason. And that modern man can teach children good morals and ethics without resorting to violence, suffering and cruelty. Why can't God?

    God could have created all animals as herbivores that ate leaves and loved one another, dancing happily on the face of the Earth. Without all the cruelty, blood, dominance and suffering involved. Why was it necessary for God to create a hyena that eats a sick elephant from its anus while it is alive? Or other cruel aspects of nature too gruesome to put into words.

    And what about suffering we have not witnessed... From deer burning in forest fires without anyone knowing to dinosaurs freezing to death before we can witness it. We can strongly induce those happened. But can we ever imagine the extent of suffering involved and learn anything meaningful from it? And let's say 10 deer burned in a forest. Why couldn't it have been 9 or 8? Or anything less? Why isn't suffering lessened at every opportunity if an All Loving God is watching?

    As Christopher Hitchens points out, why was it not enough for God to intervene to stop a young girl from being abused, locked up and raped by her sick father for years until she died? What's the great moral lesson in having her go through all that as opposed to intervening after she had witnessed some of that suffering and propagate the moral teaching if there was one. What higher reason could ever justify anything like that?

    A deranged scientist doesn't do to his lab rats what God in Christianity allows to happen to his children under the claim of "testing them". Yet his his devout followers are brainwashed into thinking that this is normal. That a loving creator could have created something as gruesome and cold. And then a hellfire afterwards to burn those he so loved. Doesn't the creation reflect the creator? If so, God is cruel and manipulative.

    ...

    The solution is to have a different model of God that admits that He is Evil and Good or above both and not concerned with morality. And that Evil is not a fluke. But a natural aspect of God. Like a pendulum. If it swings Left it also swings Right. As other much deeper and older creeds and religions have suggested. Kisses to Yazidis.
    there is a dedicated thread to address Christian theology.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    there is a dedicated thread to address Christian theology.
    This is dedicated to the problem of unneccasery evil.
    I don't believe in very general threads.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    This is dedicated to the problem of unneccasery evil.
    I don't believe in very general threads.
    there is nothing general about the topic. it is not men kell wedi 3assa. Theology is related from start to finish.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    Active Member
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    there is nothing general about the topic. it is not men kell wedi 3assa. Theology is related from start to finish.
    This is more specific to one argument, the problem of gratuitous suffering.
    I'm not interested in a thread that includes more than one argument, history of Christian theology, inner conflicts and differences, etc. As the main idea here would be lost.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    This is more specific to one argument, the problem of gratuitous suffering.
    I'm not interested in a thread that includes more than one argument, history of Christian theology, inner conflicts and differences, etc. As the main idea here would be lost.
    yes, you are very specific to the point of detailing how Christian theology fails the problem of pain. because other theologies and ideologies have a clear and convincing explanation for that eh?

    get lost.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

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    Jesus was a good guy, but you should ignore his theological beliefs because he was often on crack when he used to preach.
    Just stick to his moral teachings and you'll be fine.

    Otherwise, yes, Christianity is a sadomasochistic religion that glorifies pain and suffering.
     
    Libnene Qu7

    Libnene Qu7

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    Read the Book of Job. This subject was tackled by the authors of the Bible as they were literally writing it.
     
    V

    Venomous Hummingbird II

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    Pain and suffering are overrated, the imaginary being in the sky will make it alright for you in the imaginary afterlife. Just take his word for it, it was compiled in books written by anonymous people written decades, sometimes centuries after the Jewish so-called prophets and Messiahs expired off this earth. I'm sure people weren't stuck in a cult of personality phenomenon. They were much brighter than us over 2000 years ago.
     
    V

    Venomous Hummingbird II

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    Read the Book of Job. This subject was tackled by the authors of the Bible as they were literally writing it.
    There's nothing in the Bible that the Greeks didn't tackle centuries before. Homer's Iliad eclipses the Bible is so many ways it's beyond laughable.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Read the Book of Job. This subject was tackled by the authors of the Bible as they were literally writing it.
    it's literally a rendition of "God works in mysterious ways". Thanks for nothing.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    yes, you are very specific to the point of detailing how Christian theology fails the problem of pain. because other theologies and ideologies have a clear and convincing explanation for that eh?

    get lost.
    You are on my thread, dumbo. And clearly came here to derail like this is your landscape and I'm a psychiatrist helping you cope with the world. Make sure the door doesn't hit you on your way out.

    And judging from your previous posts, you are a toxic, vindictive, brainless individual that hasn't made an intelligent contribution in all his long stay here. Empty inside and out.
     
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    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    There's nothing in the Bible that the Greeks didn't tackle centuries before. Homer's Iliad eclipses the Bible is so many ways it's beyond laughable.
    And the Book of Jobs doesn't address this problem. It just say God has a higher purpose you don't know and the world is expected to be cruel. Says nothing basically.
     
    V

    Venomous Hummingbird II

    Guest
    And the Book of Jobs doesn't address this problem. It just say God has a higher purpose you don't know and the world is expected to be cruel. Says nothing basically.
    What's more laughable is that HaSatan (that's his adjective) in the Old Testament is part of God's council and talks God into f-cking up Ayyoub's life to test him, when in the NT he's actually called Satan now and is God's arch nemesis. Talk about a character arch indeed :p
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    What's more laughable is that HaSatan (that's his adjective) in the Old Testament is part of God's council and talks God into f-cking up Ayyoub's life to test him, when in the NT he's actually called Satan now and is God's arch nemesis. Talk about a character arch indeed :p
    From that book alone, one cay say that Yahweh is a megalomaniac.
     
    V

    Venomous Hummingbird II

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    From that book alone, one cay say that Yahweh is a megalomaniac.
    Yahweh is one bad motherfucka lmao. He created billions and billions of galaxies but picked one nomadic tribe to be a "light unto the nations" and for that tribe he's prepared to cause famine and bloodshed to anyone who does them harm. Historically, the Jews were most likely not taken as slaves in Egypt, but let's say they were. There was slavery in other parts of the world as well but Big D-ck Jehov doesn't care, only for his beloved Heebs lol
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    Human suffering is an illusion. God has provided the creation; the rest is up to how the human chooses to look at it.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

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    Anybody else notice how atheists on the internet have an aggressive obsession with bashing God and religion in the most juvenile ways?
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Human suffering is an illusion. God has provided the creation; the rest is up to how the human chooses to look at it.
    I understand trying to be an edgelord on every thread. But you come short in every one. You probably need to learn how to write English first. As what you said above is incomprehensible.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    I understand trying to be an edgelord on every thread. But you come short in every one. You probably need to learn how to write English first. As what you said above is incomprehensible.
    Not really. Humans have a choice in how they want to react in response to outside stimuli. If you choose to think thoughts of suffering, that’s on you. But that doesn’t make it Reality.

    So like I said, suffering is an illusion.
     
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