Christian theology still fails at the Problem of Unnecessary Suffering

VH Redux

VH Redux

Member
There were no “evil intentions.” Adam and Eve were in the divine presence of Perfect Oneness. Eating from the tree corrupted this original and pure state of theirs, which had now regressed into a dualistic state of mind (good vs evil). This is why Adam and Eve covered themselves when they realized they were naked.
where did the snake get the idea of tricking eve from?
 
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  • Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    where did the snake get the idea of tricking eve from?
    I have another question, why is the snake punished for eternity for just telling the truth? And why did the snake know the truth but not Adam and Eve?
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I have another question, why is the snake punished for eternity for just telling the truth? And why did the snake know the truth but not Adam and Eve?
    The snake didn't tell the truth; he told a lie. This is why he is called the great deceiver.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    The snake didn't tell the truth; he told a lie. This is why he is called the great deceiver.
    This is the text. Isn't true that after eating they were made aware of sin? And Being naked?

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

    Member
    This is the text. Isn't true that after eating they were made aware of sin? And Being naked?

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
    all races of the world have a creation myth that they have concocted

    indians chinese japanese native americans scandanivians etc.

    we just take the jews' word for it that they and only they know the truth
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    This is the text. Isn't true that after eating they were made aware of sin? And Being naked?

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
    That quote is the lie. Humans can never be like God.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    That quote is the lie. Humans can never be like God.
    I disagree. The phrase imo does not mean become God, but as God does you too will differentiate between good and evil. Which happened after the apple. Anyways, not important :) to each his own.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I disagree. The phrase imo does not mean become God, but as God does you too will differentiate between good and evil. Which happened after the apple. Anyways, not important :) to each his own.
    That is the devil's lie. That we are capable of deciding what is good and what is evil, instead of trusting God's guidance on the matter.

    What happened after the "apple" is that we realized God was right; and, that we broke our union and trust with him to stupidly follow the devil.

    This realization is the knowledge of what sin is, and the shame of having sinned is the feeling of nakedness that needs to be covered up.

    Here is an excerpt from an article:

    Engaging in conversation with the Devil will most likely lead to sin

    Determining what is good or what is bad for us, (the metaphor of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) is something that does not belong to our nature, and God was not giving that to us. It is his prerogative and his alone for he is all-knowing. We cannot presume to know what is good and evil with our finite minds. To determine what is good and evil, therefore, is usurping God’s role: we make ourselves god. But there is only one God and to make ourselves God is blasphemous. It is idolatry. Every sin is the same: we do not listen to God’s commandments and we make ourselves our own god by determining what is good or bad for us. But how did Adam and Eve fall into this trap?

    The tactic of the devil is clear from his opening attack: create doubt. “Did he really say...” caught the attention of Eve and her mistake was to entertain the invitation to a conversation. By answering the question, she unwittingly opened herself to a dialogue with the devil. We have to remember that the intellect of the devil is far superior to ours and, therefore, we have very little chance in coming out of it unscathed.

    When we are tempted, we enter into the same dialogue with ourselves trying to justify the act we are about to commit. Most of the time we also fall into that trap the way things are inescapably sucked into a black hole. The only way, it seems, to not fall into sin is to ignore the conversation with temptation altogether. Shifting our thoughts to something else is best. And since we have a fallen nature we need God’s grace too, so asking for help is recommended. We have a guardian angel assigned to each of us, and what better person to ask help from.

     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church:

    The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

    Man's first sin

    Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

    In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".

    Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

    The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed...

    A hard battle

    The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil". Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action and morals.

    The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world". This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.

    This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one" makes man's life a battle:

    The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity...

    After his fall, man was not abandoned by God. On the contrary, God calls him and in a mysterious way heralds the coming victory over evil and his restoration from his fall. This passage in Genesis is called the Protoevangelium ("first gospel"): the first announcement of the Messiah and Redeemer, of a battle between the serpent and the Woman, and of the final victory of a descendant of hers.

    The Christian tradition sees in this passage an announcement of the "New Adam" who, because he "became obedient unto death, even death on a cross", makes amends superabundantly for the disobedience, of Adam. Furthermore many Fathers and Doctors of the Church have seen the woman announced in the Protoevangelium as Mary, the mother of Christ, the "new Eve".

     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    This is the text. Isn't true that after eating they were made aware of sin? And Being naked?

    for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'
    this is the full text:
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.​
    He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You[a] shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

    this is a very condensed scene that contains many realizations.

    for a start, and most importantly, what the snake did is first misquote and misrepresent God's words, by misformulating the question with the predetermined intent of deceit, something that we ourselves often witness in these discussions. as to the snake itself, being more crafty and knowledgeable than all beasts created by God, it already knew about good and evil and represents a clear indication that with knowledge and the ability to differentiate between good and evil, comes the more important responsibility of choice and motivation, for the more important question is not what the snake asked, but rather why did the snake choose to mislead eve at the first place?

    if you think about it, that is still an ongoing process. now i am very sure you are not ill intentioned and having known you for a long time on the forum, your credibility is quite established. but take a step back and examine the situation, is there no similarities between your question and that of the snake? so to answer that missing part from the story, and out of curiosity, what was your personal motivation to interject with that question? and again i want to reemphasize this, i am not insinuating that you are adopting the role of the snake.

    now according to the text, the garden of eden was surrounded by a wall. what need does eden have for a wall if it is not to represent the clear separation between the chaos outside and the order within? is it not that order that made the garden of eden that ideal place to start with? which also underlines the concept that in order to reach bliss freedom cannot be absolute and must abide by a set of rules to set things in the right direction. additionally the snake - or the agent of chaos - being inside the walls is also a clear indication that we are never at the clear and vigilance against the infiltration of chaos is always a must.

    the story is also about sight and self consciousness, shame and guilt, after they ate the fruit both adam and eve were no longer able to stand in the presence of God and hid from Him, for they thought they were naked and exposed not only in the eyes of God but also in each other's eyes. and when asked, Adam blamed Eve for seducing him, and Eve blamed the serpent. none of them took responsibility, and that may very well be the real reason for being thrown out into the wilderness, the story does not particularly say that they were thrown out because they ate the fruit, it rather says they were thrown out after answering God's question.

    now as far as evolution is concerned, the snake was the most feared predator when mankind still lived in the trees, women in particular were more aware of that danger as it was up to them to nurse and protect their offspring for a relatively long period, consequently it is was the snake that contributed to the evolution of mankind's peripheral vision, and fruits are thought to be the reason why we see colors. such intricate vision requires a relatively larger brain, which is a must for consciousness and self awareness.
     
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    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    where did the snake get the idea of tricking eve from?
    What difference does it make? The idea to eat from the tree isn’t inherently evil. When you tell someone not do something, that “something” is going to be on their minds. It’s human nature.

    Eve, being female, had too weak of a will to resist the curiosity and temptation of the unknown. The snake just manipulated these already held ideas of hers. Indeed, this explains why girls gravitate towards the “bad guy.”

    And Adam, given that he was a beta-male at the time, acquiesced to Eve’s demands of eating from the tree. It was disobeying God’s rule that made them feel guilty, and this guilt was too much for them handle.
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

    Member
    What difference does it make? The idea to eat from the tree isn’t inherently evil. When you tell someone not do something, that “something” is going to be on their minds. It’s human nature.

    Eve, being female, had too weak of a will to resist the curiosity and temptation of the unknown. The snake just manipulated these already held ideas of hers. Indeed, this explains why girls gravitate towards the “bad guy.”

    And Adam, given that he was a beta-male at the time, acquiesced to Eve’s demands of eating from the tree. It was disobeying God’s rule that made them feel guilty, and this guilt was too much for them handle.
    it makes all the difference

    if the garden of eden is supposedly this pure place then evil or the inclination of it shouldnt exist

    unless god wanted adam to fall and tricked him
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    it makes all the difference

    if the garden of eden is supposedly this pure place then evil or the inclination of it shouldnt exist
    This “place” was a manifestation of their own pure mindset. Eating from the fruit was not inherently evil. Adam and Eve convinced themselves that they did wrong, only because the thought of disobeying God compromised their original balanced state.

    I’ll give you a modern and familiar example. Carlos Ghosn escaped Japan because he didn’t allow the thought of guilt projected by the actions and accusations of the Japanese to compromise his essential self. He stuck to his spirit, even though the Japanese tried to break it.

    In Adam and Eve’s case, they were up against their own spirit! But you cannot hide from the Truth that is within yourself.
     
    VH Redux

    VH Redux

    Member
    This “place” was a manifestation of their own pure mindset. Eating from the fruit was not inherently evil. Adam and Eve convinced themselves that they did wrong, only because the thought of disobeying God compromised their original balanced state.

    I’ll give you a modern and familiar example. Carlos Ghosn escaped Japan because he didn’t allow the thought of guilt projected by the actions and accusations of the Japanese to compromise his essential self. He stuck to his spirit, even though the Japanese tried to break it.

    In Adam and Eve’s case, they were up against their own spirit! But you cannot hide from the Truth that is within yourself.
    im talking about the damn serpent you keep deflecting back to adam and eve

    if jewish mythologies it was lilith adam's first wife who rebelled against god and adam and was thrown out of the garden of eden that manifested into a serpent to trick adam
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    im talking about the damn serpent you keep deflecting back to adam and eve

    if jewish mythologies it was lilith adam's first wife who rebelled against god and adam and was thrown out of the garden of eden that manifested into a serpent to trick adam
    If you’re asking whether it was all pre-determined, then that would be a yes. However, this isn’t really a Christian view...
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Well-Known Member
    The universe is not something you can break up like Legos. That's classical reductionist materialist science which expired more than 30 years ago according to what your own neo-material scientists are saying these days. If the universe is made up of material, you wouldn't have quantum science which is interconnected and mathematical approximation where one positron affects another regardless of distance and where virtual particles pop in and out. Now would you? Where are those fundamental blocks you need for materialism to work?

    A wooden box in front of you is mostly void and empty on the quantum level. Held up together not by material but by mathematical relations which make it appear as such only to you because of your size and biology. But it's rather tied to the whole universe in some way or another. And once you dig through those mathematical relations and their ties with our perception / consiousness, e.g double slit experiment, you realize that the Hindu model of the world being built in your mind does stand to some degree. Heck, if you read about Einstein's discussion with a reformist Hindu monk you see they both concluded with the same solipsism.

    When they map consciousness, they map it to almost all the brain functioning together. If they can point to a biological function, then they would have deduced the chemistry and electricity involved and replicated it. Would be nothing more than some iodine, electric nodes and biological vessels involved which you could extract from brain tissue. But the brain itself doesn't have necessarily specific parts for certain things. There's no part for consciousness. And it seems to be itself from a Quantum level too minuscule for biology. Hence, why if you damage one part, other parts take over for memory. It's a holistic thing that transcends biology and has to do with electricity and electromagnetism.

    I'm not saying it's magic. I'm just saying it's quantum physics that pushes the envelope on the traditional theory of science.
    Certainly, quantum physics challenges the way we think of our world, no argument there. Just bear in mind, electricity or electromagnetism are all forces of the physical universe. Same with quantum entanglement or superposition; they're descriptions of physical phenomenon and systems. It says nothing about intelligent consciousness of our universe, nor a mysterious entity engineering it. It's simply a matter of humans trying to make sense of their world. Moreover, there's ample evidence our consciousness arises from physiological factors in the brain. On the flip side, there's no evidence that it continues before or after our physical being. Indeed, advances in neuroscience are bringing us tantalisingly closer to isolating and quantifying consciousness. Probably one day making it even possible to transfer it outside the physical body.

    As far as religions go, I agree that taoism, buddism, or hinduism were far more advanced in interpreting the world than abrahamic religions. It was sort of a devolution of theism. In the sense that, rather than build upon the rich philosophies of eastern religions, the abrahamic faith turned religion into the ultimate control mechanism for autocrats. Became shallow and a mere political tool.
     
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