Deep into Atheism

eile

eile

Well-Known Member
In communist and fascist societies, removal of religion was by force not by choice. Result was disastrous because of that and especially because reality of fascism and communism is totalitarianism.

In Nordic countries such as Sweden and Denmark, for example, the most irreligious countries in the world where religion plays no part in public life and where religion was cast out by choice, these countries are doing great and consistently and constantly rank highest in life expectancy, child welfare, literacy, schooling, economic equality, standard of living and competitiveness in the world.

All I hear are crickets from your part. Perhaps that is your complete disregard to nuance.

If you need a god to tell you not to cheat, steal, or kill then there is something clearly wrong with your mental balance. You do not need a religion or some fictional deity to lead a moral life.
this desperate and too oftenly parroted counter-argument falls flat on this charge by two very elementary accounts: a) correlation doesn't imply causation, and b) the well-being itself

for a start, you must demonstrate that a) 1) atheism which you claim is closely associated with the nordic people (which is false, but granted for argument's sake), and not the church which is closely associated with the nordic states, yielded the (well part in) well-being of the nordic people, and 2) how has atheism, being closely associated with the tried-and-failed communist anti-religion/anti-Church regimes, not yielded the known opposite outcome e.g decay, oppression, death and destruction, and b) whether said well-being does account for the individuals suicide-phenomenon and for the long-term well-being of society (e.g although the titanic was looking great it was in fact heading towards its destruction), in which case, you must demonstrate that the church or religion, and not atheism or an atheistic belief, is yielding the relatively high suicides rates when they exist (as is currently the case), and that (or how does) atheism, as opposed to the church or religion, secure the nordic societies' a long-term well-being
 
Last edited:
  • Advertisement
  • R

    ruins

    Member
    Perhaps it escaped you, but Judaism was the prelude to Christianity and Islam. The triumph of jewish orthodoxy over hellenistic judaism, and later combined with the rise of christianity changed the trajectory of western civilization. The article discusses the decline of hellenistic jews, you can deduce the rest for yourself if you can shed off your religious indoctrination and think freely.
    Had Hellenistic Judaism triumphed, Giordano Bruno would not have been killed by the Church. As a result, we would have had some of the most significant advances to mankind and civilization ever. We probably would have had the theory of relativity centuries before Einstein, thanks to Bruno's effort. It is a shame.
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    your reasoning - if it can be called as such - is riddled with fallacies to which you are oblivious. the path that the world takes relatively to the flow of time, and in particular relative to specific events, let alone key events, is not something that you can foretell, even vis-a-vis past events. i could easily tell you that the world would have been a better place had the carthaginians, not the romans, won the punic wars, and trade would have prospered in a world that would have been spared the atrocities of the romans, and the world we live in would have been a paradise at the current time.

    but there is nothing pragmatic about all of these hypothetical scenarios. you can not predict how the world would have evolved, we could have been living in a better world, we could as well have ended up in a world where civilizations destroyed itself centuries ago. so the claims you make are nothing short of idiotic, and the fact that you do not see that in the arguments you are driving, is rather sad, as it denotes the extent to which you are unable to reflect on what is supposed to be trivialities. and the extent to which you have gone in your invalidated anti-Christian sentiments.

    we understand very well the impact of Christianity on the world, and how one man from nazareth changed the whole world. an argument that you yourself used to reject because it pains you to give Him any credit, making the argument that constantine and roman governing politics are the reason behind the spread of Christianity. so now, not only you continue to attribute falsehoods to Christianity, nor only you continue to deny its positive impact on the world, but you have moved to a completely new place now, how it has impacted the what could have been.

    expected though from someone who argues Christ was a psychopath and paul was a gangster... there is nothing much to say here..
    I don’t think its wise that we reopen the topic of Christ’s psychopathic nature as its self evident from the words attributed to him in the bible.

    Apart from that, anytime theocracy triumphs over the ideals and culture of Ancient Greece, considered to be the cradle of modern western civilization, it’s not hard to surmize that humanity took the wrong turn. In fact, humanity was lost in the wilderness for a millennia á la Moses and the Israelites wandering aimlessly in the desert. The differences couldn’t be more stark between the religious orthodoxy of the abrahamic religions and the hallmarks of Greek culture, i.e. democracy, equality, rule of law, trial by jury, and systematic thought…
     
    Last edited:
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    The problem with your type of thinking is that you are always comparing reality with a non-existing utopia. This is also what communists, leftists, and social justice warriors do. Except you can never actually prove your claims, which makes them an easy cop-out.

    We can, however, prove that societies in which religion was removed produced horrendous results. Namely, communism and fascism.

    The cult of personality that took shape in 20th century fascism and communism was a direct exploitation of the gullible and submissive masses that emerged from centuries of religious indoctrination and domination.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    I don’t think its wise that we reopen the topic of Christ’s psychopathic nature as its self evident from the words attributed to him in the bible.
    what has been established as self evident so far is that you are incapable of exercising a correct judgment. you are like a broken record, you haven't evolved a single bit since you have first started in these threads. never once did you ever express an idea worthy of exploration and examination. you speak of classical greece, you speak of greek philosophers, you speak of science, and yet when tested you fail on all of these topics.

    Apart from that, anytime theocracy triumphs over the ideals and culture of Ancient Greece, considered to be the cradle of modern western civilization, it’s not hard to surmize that humanity took the wrong turn. In fact, humanity was lost in the wilderness for a millennia á la Moses and the Israelites wandering aimlessly in the desert. The differences couldn’t be more stark between the religious orthodoxy of the abrahamic religions and the hallmarks of Greek culture, i.e. democracy, equality, rule of law, trial by jury, and systematic thought…
    i will let the greek philosophers themselves answer you, it is a given it will bounce straight off from you, but i am sure many would like to read how the Trinity was presented by greek philosophers from the 1st and 2cd century, and this will also dissipate many ambiguities concerning the origins of Trinity, and how it was perceived by the first Christians; just as it is perceived today.

    athenagoras of athens (133-190 AD), in a letter to marcus aurelius and lucius aurelius, emperrors of rome:

    CHAP. X.--THE CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST.
    That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being--I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos]; but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    what has been established as self evident so far is that you are incapable of exercising a correct judgment. you are like a broken record, you haven't evolved a single bit since you have first started in these threads. never once did you ever express an idea worthy of exploration and examination. you speak of classical greece, you speak of greek philosophers, you speak of science, and yet when tested you fail on all of these topics.



    i will let the greek philosophers themselves answer you, it is a given it will bounce straight off from you, but i am sure many would like to read how the Trinity was presented by greek philosophers from the 1st and 2cd century, and this will also dissipate many ambiguities concerning the origins of Trinity, and how it was perceived by the first Christians; just as it is perceived today.

    athenagoras of athens (133-190 AD), in a letter to marcus aurelius and lucius aurelius, emperrors of rome:

    CHAP. X.--THE CHRISTIANS WORSHIP THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST.
    That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being--I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos]; but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?
    You made the classic mistake of assuming that a non-Christian cares about your fictional trinity. I have no comment other than you need to get your head examined if you still believe in fairytales.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    You made the classic mistake of assuming that a non-Christian cares about your fictional trinity. I have no comment other than you need to get your head examined if you still believe in fairytales.
    did this disclaimer prove too difficult for you to understand? :rolleyes:
    "it is a given it will bounce straight off from you, but i am sure many would like to read how the Trinity was presented by greek philosophers from the 1st and 2cd century"​
    you give yourself too much credit. I do not think of you as a non-Christian. to make things easier for you, always read my posts with the certitude that they have been written under the validated impression that a random inert rock possesses a much higher intellect than yours.
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    did this disclaimer prove too difficult for you to understand? :rolleyes:
    "it is a given it will bounce straight off from you, but i am sure many would like to read how the Trinity was presented by greek philosophers from the 1st and 2cd century"​
    you give yourself too much credit. I do not think of you as a non-Christian. to make things easier for you, always read my posts with the certitude that they have been written under the validated impression that a random inert rock possesses a much higher intellect than yours.
    A greek philosphoer doesn't make your trinity any less fictional.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The cult of personality that took shape in 20th century fascism and communism was a direct exploitation of the gullible and submissive masses that emerged from centuries of religious indoctrination and domination.
    - Death and destruction are the result of Christianity. Atheists are so much better.

    - Stalin and Hitler were anti-Christian atheists, and they caused tens of millions of deaths.

    - If it wasn't for Christianity, they would not have existed.

    :wacky:
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I don’t think its wise that we reopen the topic of Christ’s psychopathic nature as its self evident from the words attributed to him in the bible.

    Apart from that, anytime theocracy triumphs over the ideals and culture of Ancient Greece, considered to be the cradle of modern western civilization, it’s not hard to surmize that humanity took the wrong turn. In fact, humanity was lost in the wilderness for a millennia á la Moses and the Israelites wandering aimlessly in the desert. The differences couldn’t be more stark between the religious orthodoxy of the abrahamic religions and the hallmarks of Greek culture, i.e. democracy, equality, rule of law, trial by jury, and systematic thought…
    Don't flatter yourself. You have zero concern for truth, goodness, and justice. You just use those concepts as a disguise to hide your real predisposition: one of hatred.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The venerable Fulton Sheen once said:

    “The essence of the satanic or the diabolic is the hatred of the Cross of Christ. … What is the satanic from the Biblical point of view? It is the contempt of the Cross of Christ. It is anti-Cross.”
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    Don't flatter yourself. You have zero concern for truth, goodness, and justice. You just use those concepts as a disguise to hide your real predisposition: one of hatred.
    Once upon a time you used to be enlightened speaking for women's rights and a champion of feminism. How you got into the religious cult beats me.

    From the horse's mouth:

    Jesus wants to burn people in hell for an eternity of torment:

    Matthew 13:41-42
    “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


    Jesus sanctions slavery and beating them:

    1 Timothy 6:1
    All slaves should show full respect for their masters so they will not bring shame on the name of God and his teaching.

    Luke 12:47-48
    And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

    Jesus who was always God:

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Incriminates himself with the blood-soaked history of the OT God - the butcher of children and lover of virgins:

    Exodus 29-30
    And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
    And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.


    Isaiah 13:15
    Anyone who is captured will be cut down—
 run through with a sword.
    Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes.
 Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.
    “Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon.
 They cannot be tempted by silver
 or bribed with gold.
    The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows.
 They will have no mercy on helpless babies
 and will show no compassion for children.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Once upon a time you used to be enlightened speaking for women's rights and a champion of feminism. How you got into the religious cult beats me.

    From the horse's mouth:

    Jesus wants to burn people in hell for an eternity of torment:

    Matthew 13:41-42
    “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


    Jesus sanctions slavery and beating them:

    1 Timothy 6:1
    All slaves should show full respect for their masters so they will not bring shame on the name of God and his teaching.

    Luke 12:47-48
    And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

    Jesus who was always God:

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Incriminates himself with the blood-soaked history of the OT God - the butcher of children and lover of virgins:

    Exodus 29-30
    And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
    And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.


    Isaiah 13:15
    Anyone who is captured will be cut down—
 run through with a sword.
    Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes.
 Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.
    “Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon.
 They cannot be tempted by silver
 or bribed with gold.
    The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows.
 They will have no mercy on helpless babies
 and will show no compassion for children.
    Yes...quote things you have no understanding of...that'll get you far.

    Mix the old and new testaments, mix the non-literal and historical books of the Bible. Anything goes as long as you get to spew your hatred.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You are behaving like a coward @Dynamite Joe .

    I asked you multiple times to provide evidence for your claims. When you couldn't, you disappeared for a while, only to come back and repeat the claims you couldn't provide evidence for.
     
    Dynamite Joe

    Dynamite Joe

    Active Member
    Yes...quote things you have no understanding of...that'll get you far.

    Mix the old and new testaments, mix the non-literal and historical books of the Bible. Anything goes as long as you get to spew your hatred.
    I have more knowledge than all your pope's and bishops combined about the bible. How then do you address the New Testament quotes. I could easily quote you more. But maybe start with the Matthew, Luke, and Timothy verses I quoted in my previous post? Or perhaps conveniently disappear would be your best bet.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    A greek philosphoer doesn't make your trinity any less fictional.
    the only thing that we have established to be fictional so far is your ability to engage in a meaningful discussion that requires more than a single neuron. back to the gnashing of teeth.. @ruins..
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I am not going anywhere @Dynamite Joe

    I am also not going to give you the response you want until you first give us the response we've been waiting for.

    You need to provide evidence that the Church:

    Surpasses Islam in violence

    Is the most destructive force in the history of civilization


    These were your claims. Back them up.
    Provide the evidence, or admit you were talking nonsense. Then, and only then, we will move to a different topic.

    You are not going to weasel your way out of argument after argument.
     
    eile

    eile

    Well-Known Member
    facts and reality relay that classical greece, during its golden age and the production of its greatest works, was essentially theocratic and bordering on tyranny and this is during its culturally/philosophically inspired democratic rule. this ascertains the reality that democracy, like any other system of governance, is in itself neither good nor bad, but is contingent on something else, a foundation, that is more fundamental that ought to regulate it or direct it in one direction rather than another, a foundation that was demonstrably absent in ancient greece; this is ascertained by a) the fact that impiety laws (blasphemy laws) existed and blasphemy accusations and death sentences were imparted and executed on its citizens the most eminent of whom was Socrates whose case stands as a sufficiently damning evidence in this regard, and by b) the corresponding culture's inter-related ideals which consisted of everything that stands inherently against true humanism or against whatever secular humanism claims to be standing for, such as 'religious (elected) governance' (anti secularism, anti natural law, anti free-inquiry), 'nature being divine or partly so' where natural law or nature couldn't be (freely) investigated in its own right (anti-science), no sense whatsoever of the equal status of all members of society (~10th of the citizens only would vote, women, merchants and slaves were among the excluded, no evidence of that being questioned let alone challenged), mere-total absence of individualism or its concept, anti nucleus-family society structure; absent opposition to 'marital infidelity, divorce, incest, polygamy and infanticide', and every other currently universally-recognized human ill under the sun

    one would be left wondering where else must secularism or modern western civilization's society have been essentially founded?
     
    Last edited:
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Once upon a time you used to be enlightened speaking for women's rights and a champion of feminism. How you got into the religious cult beats me.

    From the horse's mouth:

    Jesus wants to burn people in hell for an eternity of torment:

    Matthew 13:41-42
    “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


    Jesus sanctions slavery and beating them:

    1 Timothy 6:1
    All slaves should show full respect for their masters so they will not bring shame on the name of God and his teaching.

    Luke 12:47-48
    And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

    Jesus who was always God:

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


    Incriminates himself with the blood-soaked history of the OT God - the butcher of children and lover of virgins:

    Exodus 29-30
    And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
    And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.


    Isaiah 13:15
    Anyone who is captured will be cut down—
 run through with a sword.
    Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes.
 Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.
    “Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon.
 They cannot be tempted by silver
 or bribed with gold.
    The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows.
 They will have no mercy on helpless babies
 and will show no compassion for children.
    this is your same exact post from july 19th 2014. you are truly impervious to intellect.
     
    Top