Informational Deep Into Christianity

Dark Angel · Jun 30, 2013

Let's use this thread to explain, analyze and answer questions relating to Christianity.

before starting, please note that i am not an expert in theology, my perspective reflects my own opinion and my own experience and is by no means binding to the church. there are some questions that i do not know the answers to, and it is possible that i may present some answers that could turn out to be wrong.

please feel free to inquire as much as you want, but let's remain graceful and tactful, and refrain from the "my god is stronger than yours" approach.

Dark Angel · Jun 30, 2013

Rachel Corrie said:
if you say the new testament is an account of the life of Jesus (as),I may to an extent agree with you as we can find some good teachings worthy of coming from Jesus (as) in the four gospels of Matthew,Luke,John and Mark.but if you tell me that they are account of his birth and death,you are being ridiculous.if we are to assume (by denying history and the new testament itself) that the four gospels were indeed written by Matthew,Luke,John and Mark (an incorrect generalization),those four gospels cannot be an account of the birth of Jesus (as).also,they cannot be considered reliable accounts to the "death" of Jesus (as).through simple logic we can see that.those four did not witness his birth.and in the new testament we read that in the most critical point in the existence of Jesus (as) was when he was arrested to be executed,the new testament says: "THEY ALL FORSOOK HIM AND FLED". if they all forsook him and fled then how could they have been witnesses to the reports they wrote? in fact the "crucifixion","resurrection" and alleged "death" of Jesus are an entire discussion on their own,when we examine history and the new testament itself.from both history and the new testament we see clearly that there is enough evidence to accept that Jesus (as) was neither killed nor crucified as beautifully put in Surat an-Nisa:

Holy Quran 4:157
"And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain".

When you make a claim against the Quran,it is only fair and befitting for you to back up your claim with at least a verse.show us where the Quran "assumes" the Bible is from God.as for books handed over to Jesus (as) and Moses (as),the injil was given to Jesus (as) and the tawrat to Moses (as).even in the new testament we read titles of the books that goes thus : "the gospel of our lord Jesus Christ according to St. Mark" etc. the question is the bible the injil or tawrat? does the Quran assume the bible to be the "word of God"? does the Quran say the bible is the injil?

we want to clarify that the bible as a whole is neither the tawrat nor the injil as in fact the Christians imagine.on the other hand,the bible does contain traces of the injil and tawrat,but in its entirety as a book,it is neither injil nor tawrat.

the point that you are raising is of a great dimension with regards to the difference between Christianity and Islam, it not only denotes the differences with the very nature of God as portrayed by both religions.

1- why would god deceive the people into believing that Christ was the one crucified? that's not a very decent thing to do, and contradicts the absolute Truth (again another deep topic)
2- all the prophecies in the ancient testament were fulfilled in the Christ, including his birth and his resurrection.
3- if you read a few verses after the one you have mentioned (mark 14:50) you would read that

و كان بطرس قد تبعه من بعيد الى داخل دار رئيس الكهنة و كان جالسا بين الخدام يستدفئ عند النار

in addition the trial was public there was plenty of witnesses.

4- Mary, the mother of jesus herself, was standing below the cross with John and others, and Christ even addressed them from the cross. so his disciples might have fled when he was arrested, but a some point they discretely came back and kept around him.

فلما راى يسوع امه و التلميذ الذي كان يحبه واقفا قال لامه يا امراة هوذا ابنك ثم قال للتلميذ هوذا امك و من تلك الساعة اخذها التلميذ الى خاصته

5- the Quran mentions a very interesting verse about the birth of Christ
وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
[FONT=me_quran]this verse has absolutely no meaning unless taken in the perspective of his death and crucifiction. to point that almost everything that islam attributes to Christ does not appear in the bible. muslem scholars indicate that this verse relate to the second coming of jesus. but that again raises a whole set of question.[/FONT]

6- let's ponder this for a second and this is the very same verse you have presented as evidence,
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
so why would god raise Christ to heaven right away? while the prophet Muhammed who was the greatest of all prophets according to the Quran was allowed to poisoned and he died like all other human beings. what was so special about Christ?

lol each of these points can seriously exhaust complete books in writing to be fully addressed

but hopefully the explanation are clear from a Christian perspective.

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
In other words, blessed be his name on the day he was born, when he dies (he hasn't yet), and when he's brought back to life (on the Day of Judgement).

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
Mohammad's mission was complete. He left a great grandson to finish the Job, whereas Jesus still lives to finish the job. In other words, Jesus did not die, he lives to finish his mission. While to you he died and reappeared, to us he didn't die, he was raised and then reappeared. It's quite simple.

Dark Angel · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
In other words, blessed be his name on the day he was born, when he dies (he hasn't yet), and when he's brought back to life (on the Day of Judgement).

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
Mohammad's mission was complete. He left a great grandson to finish the Job, whereas Jesus still lives to finish the job. In other words, Jesus did not die, he lives to finish his mission. While to you he died and reappeared, to us he didn't die, he was raised and then reappeared. It's quite simple.

i am familiar with the interpretation, but the words would suggest differently, as to use of the past tense versus the future tense, it is normal , since he is the one talking, he was already born, and hadn't died yet, nor got resurrected.

i do not mind any religion adopting Christ, or incorporating him, or even stealing him, but i would have wished that was done to his teachings as well, his message was a very noble one and peaceful, and it was not only ommited in the quran but also compromised.

so fata7na el thread taba3 el deep into Christianity w ba3d ma ejena wala zboun :biggrin:

Gandalf · Jul 1, 2013

Dark Angel said:
i am familiar with the interpretation, but the words would suggest differently, as to use of the past tense versus the future tense, it is normal , since he is the one talking, he was already born, and hadn't died yet, nor got resurrected.

i do not mind any religion adopting Christ, or incorporating him, or even stealing him, but i would have wished that was done to his teachings as well, his message was a very noble one and peaceful, and it was not only ommited in the quran but also compromised.

so fata7na el thread taba3 el deep into Christianity w ba3d ma ejena wala zboun :biggrin:

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Dark Angel said:
i am familiar with the interpretation, but the words would suggest differently, as to use of the past tense versus the future tense, it is normal , since he is the one talking, he was already born, and hadn't died yet, nor got resurrected.

i do not mind any religion adopting Christ, or incorporating him, or even stealing him, but i would have wished that was done to his teachings as well, his message was a very noble one and peaceful, and it was not only ommited in the quran but also compromised.

so fata7na el thread taba3 el deep into Christianity w ba3d ma ejena wala zboun :biggrin:

He was not a passive nor was he a weakling as some 'wish' he was lol Jesus was a man of steel who preached the truth and warned against sin. It was after he left that you made some decisions on his behalf

lol Jesus in the Qur'an is simply beautiful, and so is his mother; the Queen of the Qur'an.

What was omitted in the Qur'an was Constantine's pagan influence. You have to be prepared to hear this and take it with openess

They're busy on the Islam bashing thread; requesting that Ahl Albait give their baby (the Qur'an) to others because Bukhari and Taymiyah were lovers of the Talmud. Shoufu hal msibe...

Dark Angel · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
He was not a passive nor was he a weakling as some 'wish' he was lol Jesus was a man of steel who preached the truth and warned against sin. It was after he left that you made some decisions on his behalf lol Jesus in the Qur'an is simply beautiful, and so is his mother; the Queen of the Qur'an.

What was omitted in the Qur'an was Constantine's pagan influence. You have to be prepared to hear this and take it with openess

They're busy on the Islam bashing thread; requesting that Ahl Albait give their baby (the Qur'an) to others because Bukhari and Taymiyah were lovers of the Talmud. Shoufu hal msibe...

your opinion is always appreciated

but i would rather you include facts instead of poetry, references to back your claims, it wouldn't hurt if you explain where you got that weakling thing from either

otherwise we'll remain stuck at this stage

and of course Jesus was not a weakling, it takes much more strength to forgive and love your enemies than it does to chop them up and so on.

on the positive side, it is impressive how fast some people can type in that other thread

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Dark Angel said:
your opinion is always appreciated but i would rather you include facts instead of poetry, references to back your claims, it wouldn't hurt if you explain where you got that weakling thing from either

otherwise we'll remain stuck at this stage and of course Jesus was not a weakling, it takes much more strength to forgive and love your enemies than it does to chop them up and so on.

on the positive side, it is impressive how fast some people can type in that other thread

Yes I could of course, when I'm not on a mobile phone.

Forgiveness and love is a Divine order, no confusion in that. Only sinless beings can return animosity with love. It's not about courage, it's a nature that is beyond our understanding because there's a direct connection with the Lord. Now that's poetry!

If God spoke to me, I'd love Ahmad Al Aseer. However, Jesus was not passive as some Christians portray, and the Bible proves that. God's punishment is severe, both in this world and the second, is He a coward? These poems need verses, and I'm all for that. I wish I could find the old posts here.

Since you're not on mobile in the middle of the night, why don't you start this conversation by using the Bible to explain who and what Jesus was? There are many questions that I will hammer you with. I will shred you to bits.

Can we keep this topic about Jesus? Coz Gandalf is picking and posting nice random verses from the Bible lol

Note: We didn't steal Jesus, he's ours from the start

Dark Angel · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
Yes I could of course, when I'm not on a mobile phone.

Forgiveness and love is a Divine order, no confusion in that. Only sinless beings can return animosity with love. It's not about courage, it's a nature that is beyond our understanding because there's a direct connection with the Lord. Now that's poetry! If God spoke to me, I'd love Ahmad Al Aseer. However, Jesus was not passive as some Christians portray, and the Bible proves that. God's punishment is severe, both in this world and the second, is He a coward? These poems need verses, and I'm all for that. I wish I could find the old posts here.

Since you're not on mobile in the middle of the night, why don't you start this conversation by using the Bible to explain who and what Jesus was? There are many questions that I will hammer you with. I will shred you to bits.

Can we keep this topic about Jesus? Coz Gandalf is picking and posting nice random verses from the Bible lol

Note: We didn't steal Jesus, he's ours from the start

now we're starting to get somewhere

i highlighted the topics of interest, and i will save the blue one for last, but now i am gonna go for a walk else i will get stuck to my desk chair, it happened before it could happen again :biggrin:

Gandalf · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
Can we keep this topic about Jesus? Coz Gandalf is picking and posting nice random verses from the Bible lol

Those are not random, those are the words of Jesus Christ, the savior of humanity, the God on Earth, The prince of Peace, the love expressed at maximum.
Those are the roots of Christianity, I would throw the OLD Testament and only hold on to this ones.

Note: We didn't steal Jesus, he's ours from the start

Jesus is to all humanity, its true, its not Christians, Nor Islams, nor Jews, nor Buddhists, but you have to accept him and knock the door, so that the light enters.

We all saw when Jesus called Rabi3 El Khawli what Happened, peacefully living in his Church, and becoming peace preacher, and we all saw when Fadel Shaker someone called him what Happened.

Dalzi, what I wish from you and Muslims is to talk technically, now insulting each others or getting into things unscientific.

Lets be rational and use our minds.

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Dark Angel said:
now we're starting to get somewhere i highlighted the topics of interest, and i will save the blue one for last, but now i am gonna go for a walk else i will get stuck to my desk chair, it happened before it could happen again :biggrin:

We're not going to disagree on many things. We have more in common than you think. There is only One creator and we all know Him, each in our own way. Crimes, terror and destruction in the name of God have not succeeded in destroying man's faith in Him and they never will. I know that Wahhabis give a negative impression, as do priests who rape kids! but we know they are Satan's tools bent on destroying God's name on earth.

ظهر الفساد في البرّ و البحر بما كسبت أيدي الناس

Anyway, hopefully we'll get to these.

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Gandalf said:
Those are not random, those are the words of Jesus Christ, the savior of humanity, the God on Earth, The prince of Peace, the love expressed at maximum.
Those are the roots of Christianity, I would throw the OLD Testament and only hold on to this ones.

Jesus is to all humanity, its true, its not Christians, Nor Islams, nor Jews, nor Buddhists, but you have to accept him and knock the door, so that the light enters.

We all saw when Jesus called Rabi3 El Khawli what Happened, peacefully living in his Church, and becoming peace preacher, and we all saw when Fadel Shaker someone called him what Happened.

Dalzi, what I wish from you and Muslims is to talk technically, now insulting each others or getting into things unscientific.

Lets be rational and use our minds.

Before we start, you need to know that I'm not going to tolerate insults to my beliefs. You want to discuss like mature adults, you'll find many willing to do so. You gave 'Shaker' as an example of a 'Muslim' dismissing the fact that Shaker's number one enemies are the Muslims like me, the true Muslims. The only 'ones' who called on the terrorist are his masters Obama and Satan. Imam Hussein was the Prophet's grandson and the Imam of Shiism, they called him a 'kafer' and chopped his head off. The killers of Muhammad's family are the enemies of Islam. True Muslims are a minority and that's Qur'anic, factual and Prophetic.

Terror was in the name of Christianity. The Christians wiped out entire nations to steal their land. They launched wars and destroyed more than any other group did. If I were to go by your logic, your God would be Satan.

Use your head. The only 'science' you can bring into this is that of the language of the verses.

You can't 'drop' the OT lol If you read the Bible, you'd become aware of how the OT is a crucial reference for NT conclusions. The Bible is OT + NT.

Gandalf · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
Terror was in the name of Christianity. The Christians wiped out entire nations to steal their land. They launched wars and destroyed more than any other group did. If I were to go by your logic, your God would be Satan.

There you go, this is what I wanted you to understand. I will ignore the mst of the post you may be right I may express myself in a wrong way I will only hint to this part, yes in the name of Christianity many things happend yes its true, But the difference is that JESUS didnt ask for this..
For once try to understand this. JESUS NEVER WANTED ANYONE TO KILL FOR HIM OR FOR GOD.

Can we agree on this?

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Gandalf said:
There you go, this is what I wanted you to understand. I will ignore the post and only hint to this part, yes in the name of Christianity many things happend yes its true, But the difference is that JESUS didnt ask for this..
For once try to understand this. JESUS NEVER WANTED ANYONE TO KILL FOR HIM OR FOR GOD.

Can we agree on this?

Neither did OUR Prophet and HIS bloodline of Imams. There is no record in history of Ahl Albait being involved in crimes against humanity.

The Talmud lives in Islam, but that's their problem not ours. No one told them to rally behind the wrong people and walk the wrong path despite the warnings. Heck if modern day events don't serve as an eye opener for Muslims to rethink their choices, nothing will.

baleha · Jul 1, 2013

I agree with you, Jesus (and his message to humanity), at least as per my understanding and perception, never relied on elements of earthly and materialistic power and means.
It was always a message to the hearts and minds of humans.

For Jesus, the sword had no place and no role.

Gandalf said:
There you go, this is what I wanted you to understand. I will ignore the mst of the post you may be right I may express myself in a wrong way I will only hint to this part, yes in the name of Christianity many things happend yes its true, But the difference is that JESUS didnt ask for this..
For once try to understand this. JESUS NEVER WANTED ANYONE TO KILL FOR HIM OR FOR GOD.

Can we agree on this?

Robin Hood · Jul 1, 2013

baleha said:
I agree with you, Jesus (and his message to humanity), at least as per my understanding and perception, never relied on elements of earthly and materialistic power and means.
It was always a message to the hearts and minds of humans.

For Jesus, the sword had no place and no role.

You call Islam violent, but still support those who kill innocents under it's name. We call that hypocrisy.

baleha · Jul 1, 2013

Self defense is legitimate. I support those defending themselves.

Cheers

Robin Hood said:
You call Islam violent, but still support those who kill innocents under it's name. We call that hypocrisy.

Dalzi · Jul 1, 2013

Goodnite.

baleha said:
I agree with you, Jesus (and his message to humanity), at least as per my understanding and perception, never relied on elements of earthly and materialistic power and means.
It was always a message to the hearts and minds of humans.

For Jesus, the sword had no place and no role.

Beautiful confession. To your likes, it's always been about slitting people's throats and eating their hearts.

Takbeeeeer!

"Think not I am come to bring peace on earth, I come not to bring peace, but a sword." Jesus - NT for Gandalf.

Some would say the 'sword' verse is Qur'anic, when in fact the word 'sword' is not even mentioned in the Qur'an! It is purely Bukhari and Taymiyah heretic satanic text and Hadith erhab neswen lforn taba3kon.

baleha · Jul 1, 2013

it is not just an issue of whether the sword is mentioned in the quran or not, this is a very simplistic approach.
the quran is full of verses that call for severe punishments, for the use of force, for enforcing the will on others ....

PS: can you for once post anything without insults and most importantly, can you answer without referring to Sunnis? You said you are not Sunni, so answer as per your beliefs. Would not that be better?

Dalzi said:
Goodnite.

Beautiful confession. To your likes, it's always been about slitting people's throats and eating their hearts.

Takbeeeeer!

"Think not I am come to bring peace on earth, I come not to bring peace, but a sword." Jesus - NT for Gandalf.

Some would say the 'sword' verse is Qur'anic, when in fact the word 'sword' is not even mentioned in the Qur'an! It is purely Bukhari and Taymiyah heretic satanic text and Hadith erhab neswen lforn taba3kon.

Muki · Jul 1, 2013

Dalzi said:
The Talmud lives in Islam

My bet is that you've never read the Talmud and have no idea what it is. []

Informational Deep Into Christianity

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