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Informational Deep Into Christianity

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You are WAY confused 3eyneh! I guess you better leave the religious discussions and move to other threads.

Religious debates are more fun. Fiyon khabeet aktar. Never has ra3iyyit shabeb el tayyar been more shaken and riled up since the little atheist showed up ;)
 

ruins

Member
What I meant to say is that we don't need religion to be moral persons.

Most people in prison happen to be Christians and Muslims (OK Muslims and Christians ahsan ma tez3al @Indie)

Obviously religion hasn't been a deterrent for them.
I am really puzzled by you. You just changed the topic. I did not mention, Christian, Muslim, or Religion. I did not say you need religion to be a moral person. I asked you a very simple question:

WHY are killing and stealing wrong?

Answer that question directly, and if you plan on repeating your earlier answer, I am pasting my follow up below:
1) Do you mean that killing and stealing are not necessarily wrong, but they are subjective, i.e., for you they are wrong but for others they might as well be right? If this is what you meant, then why do even the worst of killers (or thieves), admit that what they did was wrong? If this is not what you meant, skip 1) and got to 2) below:

2) If not, then you should have probably understood my question - I asked you an absolute question: Why are killing and stealing wrong (in the absolute sense, for you and everyone else)?

Care to answer this direct question - without the need to change the topic to Christian, Muslim, ma ez3al, need religion, etc.
 

Manifesto

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
@ruins Eltellak man I derive my principles from the Golden Rule. I treat others as I like to be treated. Why is that too difficult to understand?

Stealing is wrong because you're taking away someone's hard work and years of savings.

Killing is wrong because you're taking away someone's most valuable thing, their life. That said, I'm a big advocate of killing in self defense. Because when someone puts your life at risk, they've already broken the Golden Rule and given you the permission to kill them.(I hope my enemies are taking notes)

I hope this helped answer your question.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
what on earth do black slaves have to do with Christianity? do not feel obligated to throw something at Christ & Christianity when you do not have the rational ammunition for it. "slaves, obey your masters" is that it? if this is indeed what you had in mind, which i doubt, could you not simply discuss directly without serpenting around? the ignorance gets a bit repulsive after a while. don't you feel the need to conduct one smart argument every now and then?

@Impera claimed "Christianity eradicated slavery" -- I simply pointed out that, no, it did not and gave example of good Christian preaching word of Jesus as he whipped his slaves.

That got you so enraged, for reasons of your own unrelated to me, friend. Deal with your own issues on your own time, away from computer screen, the interwebz, and public scrutiny. Better for your mental health.

i could care less if you attack Christianity or spend your time sneaking after Christ and Christians, or if you spare no attempt at mockeries. i am more concerned about the lack of class and grace with which you go about your convictions, i simply find it demeaning and end up feeling embarrassed for you and your other friends. is it that hard to present an argument of substance?

You feel whatever you want to feel -- what's that got to do with me?

My advice, pray brother. And pray some more, for me to see the light. Can I get an A-men.

quite intriguing if you ask me.. how exactly can you demote what is intellectually & morally superior from anything that you have to offer?

but is ok, keep dreaming. you are not the first person who has had such dreams, and you will not be the last of course, history is full of people who were expecting Christianity to crumble in a relatively near future to their lifetime. they are all gone now, and here we are today.

aim for something meaningful next time around.

You see, in your mind, you built this image of Christianity that it is "intellectually and morally superior" to anything else in the world. The rest of us folks see it as just another mythology trekking along the timeline of our species, no more no less. Had your parents been Muslim, you'd be here selling us the virtues of Muhammad. If your religion was superior, you would've stopped brainwashing little children with it and instead let them choose their religion when they reach the age of consent and are exposed to a variety of other religions throughout their studies.
 

ruins

Member
@ruins Eltellak man I derive my principles from the Golden Rule. I treat others as I like to be treated. Why is that too difficult to understand?
This is irrelevant to the question. But I will entertain you, why should the Golden Rule be upheld?

Moreover, what if you're a masochist? The Golden rule then makes it fine to kill.

Stealing is wrong because you're taking away someone's hard work and years of savings.
Does not answer the question, why is taking away someone's hard work and years of savings wrong?
Killing is wrong because you're taking away someone's most valuable thing, their life.
Why is life valuable? Given that it is a random collection of molecules, it should have no value, just like all other molecules. If you disagree, can you tell me why is life valuable?


That said, I'm a big advocate of killing in self defense. Because when someone puts your life at risk, they've already broken the Golden Rule and given you the permission to kill them.(I hope my enemies are taking notes)

I hope this helped answer your question.
Very cute, but not related to the post.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
let's get you on par with the current understanding of Christianity this day and age before you move on to lecturing what was the prevailing understanding of Christianity in the 17th and 18th century.

the reality of the matter is the abolishing of slavery began exclusively in the Christian world in the middle ages. it didn't begin in china, nor did it begin in judea, nor did it begin in the arabic world, nor in tibet, nor in north korea.

Christians supported slavery based on their Bible and they denounced it based on their Bible. That means two different understandings of Christianity at two different points in time. Exactly what I said. I suppose a thank you is in order.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
if slavery being 'a fact of life' a) was the prevalent human understanding irrespective of Christianity, and b) was and is changed and validly/coherently abolished/unsupported precisely because of and via Christianity (its foundation or that without which there would be no Christianity), then 1) Christianity is at the very least a necessary factor in abolishing slavery 2) non or anti Christianity is a necessary factor in condoning slavery, 3) any claimed interpretation of Christianity that condones slavery is invalid, 4) doctrines (or mindsets) constitue an essential element in condoning and abolishing slavery, 5) a doctrine or a mindset that doesnt validly/coherently (i.e without self-contradicting or without contradicting its essence) oppose/abolish slavery supports slavery, and 6) idiotic/wicked people (only) would claim otherwise

Christianity is not a necessary factor in abolishing slavery. In parts of the world where Christianity doesn't exist, such as China, slavery was abolished all the same.

You, like the rest of your friends here, have a clear-cut agenda and have tunnel vision when it comes to your religion. You are blind to history and attempt to whitewash and rationalize everything in the history of Christianity, because you perceive anyone discussing said history to be attacking Christianity.

I have made it clear. I do not give a shit about Christianity. The doctrine itself cannot act. It can do absolutely nothing other than collect dust on a shelf. What matters is what the person who reads the doctrine and decides to do with it.

In the past, Christians have decided to launch their holy wars and own slaves and justified doing so using their scripture, the Christian doctrine. Whether that was a correct interpretation or not, it does not matter for there is no correct interpretation at all.

In the recent past and the present, those attitudes have been reversed, and holy wars and slavery are no longer condoned by Christians.

Don't worry, you are not special. This doesn't apply only to Christianity. It applies to any doctrine, religious or otherwise, that is used by the powerful, often adherents to that political or religious ideology, to drive a certain agenda. You and your friends here don't miss a beat to attribute communist atrocities to "atheists" and to virtue signal, but you forgot that the same is true of Christianity regardless of how much you are willing to deny, whitewash, or rationalize the truth.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
He doesn't have to watch it. But then he shouldn't waste our time throwing baseless statements around, on a topic he knows nothing of, and which he is too lazy to learn about.

Posting a video is you wasting his time, not the other way around. You can simply exit the thread and forget about it.

Like I stated earlier, members should be able to use the forum without having to view external material. If you want to present external material, you have to write it up here on the forum.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It is a silly argument. I can take any great thinker or philosopher, give my own interpretation to his or her ideas, and act accordingly...but only the ignorant would associate my actions to the thinker or philosopher himself or herself.

That would be because I never made this argument. The silly argument exists in your mind, only.

People being Christian does not automatically absolve them from sin. On the contrary, Christian doctrine teaches that we are all guilty of sin. Accordingly, it is not surprising that Christians throughout history practiced slavery, despite the teachings of Christ. But that is very different from the claim you're making that Church authorities condoned slavery.

Slavery and the Catholic Church :: Catholic News Agency

Saint Claver, the Slave of Slaves

Peter Claver - Wikipedia

Church authorities DID condone slavery, at several points in time. Some Popes even owned slaves. The transatlantic slave trade was initiated at the request of a Bishop (who later repented and reversed his position vis-a-vis slavery).

When colonization of the Americas began, the debate surrounding slavery wasn't whether it was moral or immoral, by all the self-prophecized Christians who claimed to be doing god's work by spreading Christianity. That goes for Catholics and Protestants, alike, by the way. The debate was about just vs. unjust slavery. Books critical of slavery were banned by the Catholic church in this period. Some missionaries were even excommunicated for calling for emancipation of slaves.

Two different understandings/interpretations of Christian doctrine at different periods of time. That is really not such a controversial statement.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Posting a video is you wasting his time, not the other way around. You can simply exit the thread and forget about it.

Like I stated earlier, members should be able to use the forum without having to view external material. If you want to present external material, you have to write it up here on the forum.

No one is preventing him from using the forum. But if he or anyone else makes faulty statements then he should expect to be corrected. Whether it's through a post, or an article, or a video, it's totally irrelevant.

If there's material out there explaining something perfectly well, what is the point of me repeating the same thing? Anyone with a genuine interest on a topic will make the minimum required effort to review material in said topic. It's one video, not a master's degree.

But we already established that the goal is to mock, not to understand. The rest is just silly excuses. The forum is full of external material, be it videos or articles. Suddenly it's become an issue? Nah...he's just scared of finding nothing to reply and being put in his place.

If he can't be bothered to watch a video, I can't be bothered to type its content. People can stay ignorant and make a fool of themselves all they want.

I can't reply to your other post right now, I have to get going.
 

Zilzel

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
No one is preventing him from using the forum. But if he or anyone else makes faulty statements then he should expect to be corrected. Whether it's through a post, or an article, or a video, it's totally irrelevant.

If there's material out there explaining something perfectly well, what is the point of me repeating the same thing? Anyone with a genuine interest on a topic will make the minimum required effort to review material in said topic. It's one video, not a master's degree.

But we already established that the goal is to mock, not to understand. The rest is just silly excuses. The forum is full of external material, be it videos or articles. Suddenly it's become an issue? Nah...he's just scared of finding nothing to reply and being put in his place.

I can't reply to your other post right now, I have to get going.

I can't speak for him, but I never bother to view the vast majority of videos or links that are posted on this forum, or any other forum, regardless of my interest in the topic, or the reason I am participating in a discussion.

Guess old habits die hard.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
@Impera claimed "Christianity eradicated slavery" -- I simply pointed out that, no, it did not and gave example of good Christian preaching word of Jesus as he whipped his slaves.
slavery was the norm in all the ancient world, and many popes and theologians condoned it, however the abolition of slavery began from Christendom and based on Christian values. the abolition of slavery began from the notion that all men are created equal, a concept that was strictly Christian.

That got you so enraged, for reasons of your own unrelated to me, friend. Deal with your own issues on your own time, away from computer screen, the interwebz, and public scrutiny. Better for your mental health.
you are imagining things.

You feel whatever you want to feel -- what's that got to do with me?
My advice, pray brother. And pray some more, for me to see the light. Can I get an A-men.
you are still true to your tradition in misunderstanding and misinterpreting. how you guys carry yourselves is your own individual business and your own right, and my feeling embarrassed and sorry for those who live through the 21st century with a regressive mentality is my own business as well.

You see, in your mind, you built this image of Christianity that it is "intellectually and morally superior" to anything else in the world. The rest of us folks see it as just another mythology trekking along the timeline of our species, no more no less. Had your parents been Muslim, you'd be here selling us the virtues of Muhammad. If your religion was superior, you would've stopped brainwashing little children with it and instead let them choose their religion when they reach the age of consent and are exposed to a variety of other religions throughout their studies.
me embracing Christianity has nothing much to do with my parents. i rejected all organized religion long before i found my way to Christ. which is yet another evidence, at least between me and myself, of your flawed perception. I have not build any image of Christianity that is different from its reality. i have studied it and understood it, and unlike you i am not inventing it in my mind at the expense of its reality simply so that i could argue for the sake of arguing.

and while some theists share your primitive and shallow understanding of scripture and faith, i can say with confidence that most atheist i have encountered subscribe to it. the irony is that you cannot let go of your faulty version for then you will no longer have any platform to stand on, a position that you maintain at the expense of truth and veracity, thus making your whole stand nothing but a self defeating oxymoron.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
I can't speak for him, but I never bother to view the vast majority of videos or links that are posted on this forum, or any other forum, regardless of my interest in the topic, or the reason I am participating in a discussion.

Guess old habits die hard.
when the video is presented by a Catholic bishop strictly explaining the relevant doctrine and theology to point out a major component that you have misunderstood, then you either have to concede the point or argue based on the actual understanding and interpretation, not on the one you are trying to forcefully impose. rejecting the official reference and maintaining your erroneous claim is pretty vulgar, nonconstructive and uneducated; not to mention that it is very indicative of your intent to maliciously falsify a part of this discussion, indicating that truth is never your concern to start with; a conclusion that we can live with.

eitherway you guys are spending hours upon hours arguing your strawmen, and not willing to invest a tiny fraction of that time to invest their validity, this tells alot about your attitude and mentality, does it not?

watch a video, read a book, but stop trying to forcefully impose your erroneous understanding on others.

most of this thread is about attempting to teach you the very basics and the prerequisites for a truthful and constructive interaction. but have it your way, we cannot force you to conduct yourself properly.
 
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Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Christians supported slavery based on their Bible and they denounced it based on their Bible. That means two different understandings of Christianity at two different points in time. Exactly what I said. I suppose a thank you is in order.
wrong premises and wrong conclusion my friend. slavery was the norm in the ancient past but with the moral evolution catalyzed by Christian principles the abolition of slavery become possible.
 

kmarthe

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Religious debates are more fun. Fiyon khabeet aktar. Never has ra3iyyit shabeb el tayyar been more shaken and riled up since the little atheist showed up ;)

ya mammyyy :woot::woot::woot:

Honestly after reading your posts, I am not surprised to read what you wrote in that red sentence here. How does it feel in your Lalaland? :D :D thank you manifesto for the laughter, 3anjad :D

most atheists have an insatiable desire for trolling. it does indeed help them become better versions of themselves.

Eno DA what are you expecting our fellow atheists here to do? First many of them don't know why they are atheist, the majority have no knowledge about the religions they are criticizing, and all of them have been almost repeating the same sentences since these religious threads were created :) but they are good at entertaining us from time to time.
 
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Ralph N

Well-Known Member
Guide To Buddhism A To Z

The Buddha and Jesus were probably the two most influential figures in history. Their teachings have had a profound and positive effect on the cultures which adopted them. There are also interesting parallels between the two men. Both were homeless, wandering teachers and both were skilled in using parables and stories to make their ideas understandable. They each attracted a band of disciples and sent them out to spread their teachings. The Buddha saw himself as the most recent in a line of enlightened Buddhas (S.II,106) and Jesus believed himself to be a successor of the great Jewish prophets of old. But it is in the two men's ethical vision that we see the most important similarities. Here are just a few of the many things they taught which show their like-mindedness.


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The Buddha and Jesus even shared a similar fate after their deaths in that both were eventually deified. On discovering that a certain monk was entranced by his physical appearance, the Buddha admonished him: `Why do you want to see this dirty body of mine? See the Dhamma and you will see me' (S.III,120). Nonetheless, during the third Council some participants asserted that the Buddha was so perfect that even his faeces was fragrant-smelling (Kv.XVIII,4). The Saddharmapuõóarãka Såtra, which dates from about the 1st century CE, claims that the Buddha has existed since the beginning of time! When someone addressed Jesus as `good teacher', he immediately corrected them: `Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone' (Luke 18,19). Disregarding such evidence, within 20 years of Jesus' death Saint Paul was already claiming he was God incarnate
 

Ralph N

Well-Known Member
Vatican's message to Buddhists on Vesakh - Vatican Radio

Vatican's message to Buddhists on Vesakh


The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue on Saturday, issued a message on the occasion of the Buddhist feast of Vesakh on the theme ‘Christians and Buddhists: Walking Together on the Path of Nonviolence’.

The Message signed by Council President, Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran and Council Secretary, Fr Miguel Ángel Ayuso Guixot, MCCJ emphasizes the urgent need to promote a culture of peace and nonviolence as both these values were promoted by Jesus Christ and the Buddha.

The text reiterates how Jesus walked the path of nonviolence to the very end, to the cross and calls his followers today to embrace his teaching about nonviolence. Buddha also heralded the same message and encouraged all to overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth.

Therefore the message calls for a common enterprise, to study the causes of violence, combat violence and to pray for world peace while walking together on the path of nonviolence.

The full text of the message is here below:

MESSAGE FOR THE FEAST OF VESAKH

2017

Dear Buddhist Friends,

1. In the name of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, we extend our warmest greetings and prayerful good wishes on the occasion of Vesakh. May this feast bring joy and peace to all of you, to your families, communities and nations.

2. We wish to reflect this year on the urgent need to promote a culture of peace and nonviolence. Religion is increasingly at the fore in our world today, though at times in opposing ways. While many religious believers are committed to promoting peace, there are those who exploit religion to justify their acts of violence and hatred. We see healing and reconciliation offered to victims of violence, but also attempts to erase every trace and memory of the “other”; there is the emergence of global religious cooperation, but also politicization of religion; and, there is an awareness of endemic poverty and world hunger, yet the deplorable arms race continues. This situation requires a call to nonviolence, a rejection of violence in all its forms.

3. Jesus Christ and the Buddha were promotors of nonviolence as well as peacemakers. As Pope Francis writes, “Jesus himself lived in violent times. Yet, he taught that the true battlefield, where violence and peace meet, is the human heart: for ‘it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come’ (Mk 7:21)” (2017 Message for the World Day of Peace, Non-Violence: A Style of Politics for Peace, no. 3). He further emphasises that “Jesus marked out the path of nonviolence. He walked that path to the very end, to the cross, whereby he became our peace and put an end to hostility (cf. Eph 2:14-16)” (ibid.). Accordingly, “to be true followers of Jesus today also includes embracing his teaching about nonviolence” (ibid.).

4. Dear friends, your founder, the Buddha also heralded a message of nonviolence and peace. He encouraged all to “Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth.” (Dhammapada, no. XVII, 3). He taught further that “Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.” (ibid. XV, 5). Therefore, he noted that the self-conquest is greater than the conquest of others: “Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he indeed is the noblest victor who conquers himself” (ibid, VIII, 4).

5. In spite of these noble teachings, many of our societies grapple with the impact of past and present wounds caused by violence and conflicts. This phenomenon includes domestic violence, as well as economic, social, cultural and psychological violence, and violence against the environment, our common home. Sadly, violence begets other social evils, and so “the choice of nonviolence as a style of life is increasingly demanded in the exercise of responsibility at every level […] ” (Address of His Holiness Pope Francis on the Occasion of the Presentation of the Letters of Credence, 15 December 2016).

6. Though we recognize the uniqueness of our two religions, to which we remain committed, we agree that violence comes forth from the human heart, and that personal evils lead to structural evils. We are therefore called to a common enterprise: to study the causes of violence: to teach our respective followers to combat evil within their hearts; to liberate both victims and perpetrators of violence from evil; to bring evil to light and challenge those who foment violence; to form the hearts and minds of all, especially of children, to love and live in peace with everyone and with the environment; to teach that there is no peace without justice, and no true justice without forgiveness; to invite all to work together in preventing conflicts and rebuilding broken societies; to urge the media to avoid and counter hate speech, and biased and provocative reporting; to encourage educational reforms to prevent the distortion and misinterpretation of history and of scriptural texts; and to pray for world peace while walking together on the path of nonviolence.

7. Dear friends, may we actively dedicate ourselves to promoting within our families, and social, political, civil and religious institutions a new style of living where violence is rejected and the human person is respected. It is in this spirit that we wish you once again a peaceful and joyful feast of Vesakh!

Vatican City

Cardinal Jean-Louis Taura

President

Bishop Miguel Ángel Ayuso Guixot, MCCJ

Secretary
 
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