Informational Deep Into Christianity

JustLeb

Legendary Member
this is true in all circumstances. but despite the media brouhaha none of these events is actually new.

couple of weeks ago Lebanon was receiving the remains of Saint Morina (Marina) in a visit to her homeland. if you are familiar with her story, almost 15 centuries ago, Morina disguised herself as a man so that she could join the convent and remain by the side of her father to serve him and others.

a while after one of the visits the monks did to some of the neighboring villages, a woman appears at the convent and raises accusations that Morina had raped her, and she is pregnant with Morina's child. Morina remained silent and did not say a single word in her own defense, and the priests ordained her to leave the monastery and raise the baby. so she did that without protesting. many years later she returned to the convent where she continued to serve until her death, and it was only upon preparing her body for burial that the monks discovered she is actually a woman.

so you can rest assured the accusations will continue to come. but i believe that in these dire times, Morina should be an inspiration to believers reminding them how evil forces are lurking around to devour the church and its flock. people of all faiths and beliefs are in an alliance against the church and are launching a perpetual war against Truth. so stand tall, you have nothing to be ashamed of, to the contrary, you are the last bastion for Truth, and Truth will always prevail.
Yes I know the story of Saint Marina, and I am not saying all accusations are true, but even if only one is true this should push the Church to take action. We say the Holy Church because it should be Holy and reject all abusive conduct especially among the clergymen.
I hope the Vatican take drastic measures in this regard, otherwise I don't see a bright future...
Eventhough I strongly believe in "on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. " (Matthew 18)
But there should be someone to fight for the glory of the church
 
  • Advertisement
  • Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Yes I know the story of Saint Marina, and I am not saying all accusations are true, but even if only one is true this should push the Church to take action. We say the Holy Church because it should be Holy and reject all abusive conduct especially among the clergymen.
    I hope the Vatican take drastic measures in this regard, otherwise I don't see a bright future...
    Eventhough I strongly believe in "on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. " (Matthew 18)
    But there should be someone to fight for the glory of the church
    l'habit ne fait pas le moine. this is something we understand pretty well as Christians. history has recorded quite a few evil popes even. there are many priests who are serving who have neither faith nor morality nor ethics, this is a fact that goes without saying. the trouble however is that the people who are pushing these accusations forth are not after the bad priests, they want the heads of the good ones and what they are ultimately seeking is the destruction of the Church, they are neither after remedies nor after solutions.
     

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    l'habit ne fait pas le moine. this is something we understand pretty well as Christians. history has recorded quite a few evil popes even. there are many priests who are serving who have neither faith nor morality nor ethics, this is a fact that goes without saying. the trouble however is that the people who are pushing these accusations forth are not after the bad priests, they want the heads of the good ones and what they are ultimately seeking is the destruction of the Church, they are neither after remedies nor after solutions.
    You don't see that the church is destroying itself when it decided to cover up these crimes for sake of their image, and only apologized for it after they were caught? That doesn't bother you?
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Staff member
    You don't see that the church is destroying itself when it decided to cover up these crimes for sake of their image, and only apologized for it after they were caught? That doesn't bother you?
    Who in the Church? Which ones out of its 1.2 billion members? And does that even matter to you?
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    You don't see that the church is destroying itself when it decided to cover up these crimes for sake of their image, and only apologized for it after they were caught? That doesn't bother you?
    to use a term such as "decided" is a travesty against truth my friend. the church does not work to provide a fertile ground for acts of deprived sexual nature. the issue was simply mishandled by incompetent people who did not understand the scope of their actions and the necessity for stern decisions.

    but you can rest assured had that not been the case, and had those people in charge taken the necessary actions, people would be here today arguing in favor of homosexuality and how the church is destroying itself by oppressing homosexual priests, or how sexually retarded the Catholic teachings are, etc..

    it suffices to examine the organization and the people who are pushing these claims forward to understand what we are dealing with. you have the groups of angry atheists, LGBT groups, third wave feminists, etc.. in addition to the groups of protestants and evangelicals who announce every pope to be the anti-christ in the flesh, and members of these groups usually never shut-up, they constantly make as loud of a fuss as they can, and whether that is by design or by nature it irrelevant. without mentioning people from other faiths, the ones who still refer to Christians as el salibiyeen and proclaim a jihadist warfare against roma.

    so yes, there was a mismanagement of the crisis, there was no "decision" to cover up anything, especially not "by the church".

    the real question is why people who cannot control their sexual urges and exhibit all sorts of sexual perversions become priests to start with?
     

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Who in the Church? Which ones out of its 1.2 billion members? And does that even matter to you?
    The senior clergy.
    Of course, otherwise why would I even ask?

    to use a term such as "decided" is a travesty against truth my friend. the church does not work to provide a fertile ground for acts of deprived sexual nature. the issue was simply mishandled by incompetent people who did not understand the scope of their actions and the necessity for stern decisions.

    but you can rest assured had that not been the case, and had those people in charge taken the necessary actions, people would be here today arguing in favor of homosexuality and how the church is destroying itself by oppressing homosexual priests, or how sexually retarded the Catholic teachings are, etc..

    it suffices to examine the organization and the people who are pushing these claims forward to understand what we are dealing with. you have the groups of angry atheists, LGBT groups, third wave feminists, etc.. in addition to the groups of protestants and evangelicals who announce every pope to be the anti-christ in the flesh, and members of these groups usually never shut-up, they constantly make as loud of a fuss as they can, and whether that is by design or by nature it irrelevant. without mentioning people from other faiths, the ones who still refer to Christians as el salibiyeen and proclaim a jihadist warfare against roma.

    so yes, there was a mismanagement of the crisis, there was no "decision" to cover up anything, especially not "by the church".

    the real question is why people who cannot control their sexual urges and exhibit all sorts of sexual perversions become priests to start with?
    Mishandled my incompetent people? Such things happen when a secratary misfiles a report. Not when thousands of children, if not more, continuously lose their childhood decade after decade. It's true that the church has many enemies, but her worst enemy is rotting it from the inside.
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    The senior clergy.
    Of course, otherwise why would I even ask?



    Mishandled my incompetent people? Such things happen when a secratary misfiles a report. Not when thousands of children, if not more, continuously lose their childhood decade after decade. It's true that the church has many enemies, but her worst enemy is rotting it from the inside.
    this is true for every entity, from cells to individuals to families to societies to all organizations. the worst danger is the one that comes from within. this bit of wisdom is not restricted to the church. in fact the very idea and concept is Christian by nature.

    as i have pointed out, the problem with the church is not how some superiors reacted to the travesties committed by some priests, but rather how on earth could such people who are nothing short of vile be allowed to become priests at the first place, let alone gain influence. this is where the process is flawed and should be addressed and fixed. but this is not what is being pushed for now, is it? because it is not a healthy church they are after. and this is where you have to make your own choice :)

    projecting the actions of these deprived individuals across the whole church, that is an act of travesty in and by itself, mechanism should put in check, priests should be monitored, but what else do you want? you want the pope and the cardinals to be hanged in times square? what solution do you suggest other than simply recanting the "systematic cover up" mantra? should the church be dismantled for justice to be served :) ? what exactly do you think the appropriate remedy would be?
     

    Libnene Qu7

    Super Ultra Senior Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    this is true for every entity, from cells to individuals to families to societies to all organizations. the worst danger is the one that comes from within. this bit of wisdom is not restricted to the church. in fact the very idea and concept is Christian by nature.

    as i have pointed out, the problem with the church is not how some superiors reacted to the travesties committed by some priests, but rather how on earth could such people who are nothing short of vile be allowed to become priests at the first place, let alone gain influence. this is where the process is flawed and should be addressed and fixed. but this is not what is being pushed for now, is it? because it is not a healthy church they are after. and this is where you have to make your own choice :)

    projecting the actions of these deprived individuals across the whole church, that is an act of travesty in and by itself, mechanism should put in check, priests should be monitored, but what else do you want? you want the pope and the cardinals to be hanged in times square? what solution do you suggest other than simply recanting the "systematic cover up" mantra? should the church be dismantled for justice to be served :) ? what exactly do you think the appropriate remedy would be?
    Walla ya Dark, if I had the solution then I would be busy right now advising the pope.

    But here are a few ideas that can be debated:
    1. Reconsider celibacy. Is it really required? Someone once explained to me the theological reasoning behind it, and it made sense. But most human beings are not equipped to handle it. If the church needs more priests, then it needs to relax some of its rules.
    2. Have freely available, yearly, and anonymous psychological counseling. Many priests enter the priesthood with the best of intentions, but over the years something else happens.
    3. Name and shame those proven guilty. This could help as a preventative measure.

    You are asking but you refuse to accept some of the answers :)
    B7ib 7arkish bi Dark from time to time. Ilik shi ma3i?
     
    this is true in all circumstances. but despite the media brouhaha none of these events is actually new.

    couple of weeks ago Lebanon was receiving the remains of Saint Morina (Marina) in a visit to her homeland. if you are familiar with her story, almost 15 centuries ago, Morina disguised herself as a man so that she could join the convent and remain by the side of her father to serve him and others.

    a while after one of the visits the monks did to some of the neighboring villages, a woman appears at the convent and raises accusations that Morina had raped her, and she is pregnant with Morina's child. Morina remained silent and did not say a single word in her own defense, and the priests ordained her to leave the monastery and raise the baby. so she did that without protesting. many years later she returned to the convent where she continued to serve until her death, and it was only upon preparing her body for burial that the monks discovered she is actually a woman.

    so you can rest assured the accusations will continue to come. but i believe that in these dire times, Morina should be an inspiration to believers reminding them how evil forces are lurking around to devour the church and its flock. people of all faiths and beliefs are in an alliance against the church and are launching a perpetual war against Truth. so stand tall, you have nothing to be ashamed of, to the contrary, you are the last bastion for Truth, and Truth will always prevail.
    Khalas it is settled :) this Morina story solves it all :)
     
    U.S. government e-mail leaks are a conspiracy theory?

    As for the homosexuality within the clergy issue, do you guys realize that many of the abuse victims you hear about on the news are not children, but adults, including priests? And they claim they were abused by homosexual superiors? Those are conspiracy theories too? Do you only believe the victims if their narratives point to heterosexual priests as abusers, because that fits nicely into your biased perspective of the world? Victims of homosexual abusers are just making up their stories? Do you even know that most of the abuse victims are boys or men? Heterosexual priests are choosing male victims for some odd reason?

    Every fact in every article I post is verifiable. There is not conspiracy theory, my friend. Do your homework. Have the intellectual honesty to test your assumptions.
    I don't care that there seems to be lots of homosexual priests according to what you say. Fact remains that some are also child molesters and committed vile crimes against chlidren, and the church institution systematically covered and protected that. The church institution should be held accountable under the law.

    That said, yes I do agree that you have to figure out what's wrong with the church institution and with the bad priests, and go fix that...
     
    Last edited:
    to use a term such as "decided" is a travesty against truth my friend. the church does not work to provide a fertile ground for acts of deprived sexual nature. the issue was simply mishandled by incompetent people who did not understand the scope of their actions and the necessity for stern decisions.

    but you can rest assured had that not been the case, and had those people in charge taken the necessary actions, people would be here today arguing in favor of homosexuality and how the church is destroying itself by oppressing homosexual priests, or how sexually retarded the Catholic teachings are, etc..

    it suffices to examine the organization and the people who are pushing these claims forward to understand what we are dealing with. you have the groups of angry atheists, LGBT groups, third wave feminists, etc.. in addition to the groups of protestants and evangelicals who announce every pope to be the anti-christ in the flesh, and members of these groups usually never shut-up, they constantly make as loud of a fuss as they can, and whether that is by design or by nature it irrelevant. without mentioning people from other faiths, the ones who still refer to Christians as el salibiyeen and proclaim a jihadist warfare against roma.

    so yes, there was a mismanagement of the crisis, there was no "decision" to cover up anything, especially not "by the church".

    the real question is why people who cannot control their sexual urges and exhibit all sorts of sexual perversions become priests to start with?
    So according to you, the church institution covered these crimes by accident, inadvertently? :) like it had every intention to report them to the police but it just didn't happen and they just simply covered them up accidentally, they didn't "decide" to do that, god forbid, it just happened that they covered them up!? Shit happens right :)

    It's a travesty, yes. And the church institution should be accountable for it under the law. (By the way you can't blame it on incompetence. The church is also accountable under the law for incompetence, that's no defense. The scope and duration of this cover up points to malice and a systematic cover up practice rather than incompetence however.)
     
    Last edited:
    According to @Dark Angel it is not obvious at all that molesting children is a vile crime that should be reported immediately to the police, apparently the church was "incompetent" and didn't know that molesting children is a crime... :) see there was no cover up at all :)
     

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Walla ya Dark, if I had the solution then I would be busy right now advising the pope.

    But here are a few ideas that can be debated:
    1. Reconsider celibacy. Is it really required? Someone once explained to me the theological reasoning behind it, and it made sense. But most human beings are not equipped to handle it. If the church needs more priests, then it needs to relax some of its rules.
    2. Have freely available, yearly, and anonymous psychological counseling. Many priests enter the priesthood with the best of intentions, but over the years something else happens.
    3. Name and shame those proven guilty. This could help as a preventative measure.



    B7ib 7arkish bi Dark from time to time. Ilik shi ma3i?
    All of the suggestions you have forwarded are very viable. I would even add that the psychological solution is not nearly as stern as it actually ought to be. Priesthood is not a job, it is rather a manifestation of conviction and faith, and there isnt really a test for that.

    The real issue is that the people in charge of safeguarding the faith and spreading the message are actually violating the very principles that Christianity has established and the ones it still aims to establish. So it is not a matter of a violation of a state law, but rather an underming of the foundation upon which all laws are established and which are pertinant to the inherent sacredness of every human, in particular defensless children.

    So as far as the church is concerned, these wolves disguised as sheep should have no place in it.

    But then again not all allegations are true, and priests should not be punished at the mere accusation, the process should be a thorough one to establish guilt or innocence; especially given the countless examples of aggression against truth that we are witnessing all around.

    Now as far as celibacy is concerned, the maronite church allows a priest to get married before getting ordained; though that limits his options at being promoted to higher responsibilities.
     
    Last edited:

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    According to @Dark Angel it is not obvious at all that molesting children is a vile crime that should be reported immediately to the police, apparently the church was "incompetent" and didn't know that molesting children is a crime... :) see there was no cover up at all :)
    I think that @Dark Angel is eloquent enough to accurately and precisely frame his opinions without the need for anyone to paraphrase them :)

    I think that @joseph_lubnan is contributing to an aggression against Truth.
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Staff member
    I don't care that there seems to be lots of homosexual priests according to what you say. Fact remains that some are also child molesters and committed vile crimes against chlidren, and the church institution systematically covered and protected that. The church institution should be held accountable under the law.

    That said, yes I do agree that you have to figure out what's wrong with the church institution and with the bad priests, and go fix that...
    You sound like you are agreeing with me. But you also sound like you are disagreeing with me.

    I am very tired ya Joseph :) Let's not argue for the sake of arguing :)
     
    THE ROT ALWAYS STARTS FROM THE TOP

    Pope Francis reportedly has no intention of resigning

    Pope Francis has no intention of stepping down as he fights accusations that he protected a former archbishop accused of sexual abuse, Italian news agency ANSA reported, citing “close associates” of the pope.

    The pontiff was “embittered” by a letter written by the Vatican’s former ambassador to the United States, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, in which the former diplomat accused the pope and his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, of knowing of abuse allegedly carried out by the former archbishop in Washington, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the associates said, according to ANSA.

    But, they said, Francis, 81, "is not thinking about resignation,” ANSA reported.

    pope-francis-gty-hb-180828_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg

    Vigano wrote that Francis and Benedict knew that McCarrick -- who resigned as a cardinal in July after he was accused of abusing adults and minors -- was a "serial predator."

    Reached for comment, McCarrick’s attorney Barry Coburn called Vigano’s words “serious allegations.”

    carlo-vigano-ap-mo-20180828_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg

    There is no provision in canon law for the removal of a pope. The job comes with lifetime tenure, ending only in death or voluntary resignation.

    "He is the supreme legislator," said papal biographer Gerald O’Connell. "Nobody can remove him from his place as pope unless he himself decides to go. That’s the Church law."

    There’s also no provision for an independent investigation, unless the pope decides to create one.

    "There’s no special counsel for popes, no Robert Mueller," said the Rev. John Wauck, an ABC News contributor.

    Houston Cardinal Daniel Dinardo, president of the US Conference of Bishops, has asked for an audience with the pope to discuss the American Church’s plan to deal with the broader sexual abuse scandal.

    As for these explosive allegations made by Archbishop Vigano, Cardinal Dinardo said: "The questions raised deserve answers that are conclusive and based on evidence. Without those answers, innocent men may be tainted by false accusation and the guilty may be left to repeat the sins of the past."

    Today the private secretary for Pope Emeritus Benedict, Archbishop Georg Ganswein, actually used the term "fake news" to describe one news report on the scandal.

    While Vatican infighting is nothing new, this feud between factions for and against Pope Francis is playing out in real time on social media. As one Vatican writer put it, "it’s as if the Borgia’s and the Medici’s had Twitter accounts.”
     
    THE ROT ALWAYS STARTS FROM THE TOP

    Pope Francis reportedly has no intention of resigning

    Pope Francis has no intention of stepping down as he fights accusations that he protected a former archbishop accused of sexual abuse, Italian news agency ANSA reported, citing “close associates” of the pope.

    The pontiff was “embittered” by a letter written by the Vatican’s former ambassador to the United States, Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano, in which the former diplomat accused the pope and his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, of knowing of abuse allegedly carried out by the former archbishop in Washington, Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, the associates said, according to ANSA.

    But, they said, Francis, 81, "is not thinking about resignation,” ANSA reported.

    pope-francis-gty-hb-180828_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg

    Vigano wrote that Francis and Benedict knew that McCarrick -- who resigned as a cardinal in July after he was accused of abusing adults and minors -- was a "serial predator."

    Reached for comment, McCarrick’s attorney Barry Coburn called Vigano’s words “serious allegations.”

    carlo-vigano-ap-mo-20180828_hpMain_16x9_608.jpg

    There is no provision in canon law for the removal of a pope. The job comes with lifetime tenure, ending only in death or voluntary resignation.

    "He is the supreme legislator," said papal biographer Gerald O’Connell. "Nobody can remove him from his place as pope unless he himself decides to go. That’s the Church law."

    There’s also no provision for an independent investigation, unless the pope decides to create one.

    "There’s no special counsel for popes, no Robert Mueller," said the Rev. John Wauck, an ABC News contributor.

    Houston Cardinal Daniel Dinardo, president of the US Conference of Bishops, has asked for an audience with the pope to discuss the American Church’s plan to deal with the broader sexual abuse scandal.

    As for these explosive allegations made by Archbishop Vigano, Cardinal Dinardo said: "The questions raised deserve answers that are conclusive and based on evidence. Without those answers, innocent men may be tainted by false accusation and the guilty may be left to repeat the sins of the past."

    Today the private secretary for Pope Emeritus Benedict, Archbishop Georg Ganswein, actually used the term "fake news" to describe one news report on the scandal.

    While Vatican infighting is nothing new, this feud between factions for and against Pope Francis is playing out in real time on social media. As one Vatican writer put it, "it’s as if the Borgia’s and the Medici’s had Twitter accounts.”
    If only Giordano Bruno were alive, he would rejoice at this feud among Christ and his vicars on Earth
     

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Staff member
    At least there were no innocent kids involved.
    Most of the clergy sexual abuse cases do not involve children.

    We keep saying the main problem is a homosexual mafia trying to undermine the Church from within.

    Not gonna hold our breath for the mainstream media to report all the facts, though.
     

    Top