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Informational Deep Into Christianity

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
that was interesting to read ..

in jewish and islam prevail more materialist dimension while in christianity (catholicism ) prevail the spiritual dimension .(or at least tend to be) ..
correct me if i am wrong
it is more about the essence versus the form, and the emphasis you put on one versus the other. the book itself versus the purpose of the book. would one live life by the letters of the book or by its essence ? would one consider the book as a set of rules to closely follow, or would one capture the essence itself?

you come across this discussions several times in the NT between Christ and the jewish scribes and pharisees who could not tolerate the fact that Jesus was healing people on the sabbath, the day dedicated to the Lord and to rest, as written in the Torah; and Jesus simply tells them that the sabbath was made to meet the needs of man, not for man to meet the needs of the sabbath. along with pointing out on many other occasions that the spirit of the books is more important than the books itself.

though the question is rather simple, it gives rise to two different world views, are the scripted words more important and sacred than the intent they try to convey? should the context be focused on a word? a line? a chapter? a book? or the on the spirit in which that book was written? this is why we always reiterate that despite holding them very sacred, the gospels are written accounts testimonies that try to safeguard the essence of life with Christ, as such the book becomes an introduction to higher notion that is very much alive and interactive. so though the book is a close companion, the actual Journey is with Christ and with God, not with the book itself.

so while this is not exactly the same as the conflict with materialism, there are close similarities and shared elements, in particular as one will not be able to subscribe to notions of higher meaning without recognizing that there is more to life than what meets the eye. whereas when it comes to Protestantism, Judasim and Islam, they do make that recognition, but fall back to perceiving it strictly on the shallower levels of contexts, which makes for a very rigid perception that ends up often times violating the more important essence on higher levels.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
though in reality i dont have much time for long discussion, in particular when it is not approached with the right mindset, i will try to make it brief, there are many notions in the trials of Christ that need a deeper level of understanding in order to discuss, to list a few:

  • the nature of the devil, the role of pride and arrogance.
  • the temptation of first Adam versus Christ, the second Adam and the new rebirth.
  • the temptation of the israelites in the desert and their distrust of God at every turn.
  • now the temptations themselves:
    • the devil taking Christ to the highest edge of the temple in the Holy city, and misusing sacred scripture to test Christ. this is the last place where you would expect the devil to choose for a temptation. the spiritual attack. to which Christ answered "Do not put your Lord God to the test." a simple phrase that carries more than a single meaning, I will leave to you as an exercise to figure these meanings out.
    • hunger is the most basic of physical needs. yet Christ points out "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every every word comes from the mouth of God". the physical need attack.
    • the devil offered the world to Christ, if He would worship him. kingdoms upon kingdoms. who does this world belong to anyway? is it for the devil to offer to begin with? and here you should ask yourself did others succumb to this temptation? established dominions and forge kingdoms? but regardless, Christ replied "Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him alone" was he telling the devil or answering him? this whole world is offered to us freely with the notions that flow from God, the devil however would like to wrap these notions with authority and power to tickle vanity and pride with fake glory. Christ became the king of kings of heaven and earth through humility and the cross. the humility vs pride attack.
      to notice here the imagery of the devil "worship me and i will give you x y and z" a notion that many try to project on religion to this very day.
now with some of these issues out of the way, you can indeed find that both the devil and quran in this case are speaking with the same tongue and for the same purpose. you can think of this what you want. but at least you should wonder why the quran dedicates so much narrative to deny Crucifixion and the Divinity of Christ.

as to the video itself there is nothing striking about it, even when on the cross people taunted Christ by shouting "if you are the Son of God save yourself". psalm 91 stands true in ways different than the one presented in this video, in particular as pointed out in John's 7:30
"they were seeking to arrest him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come."
and in John's 10:18-19
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
additionally, psalm 91 is not independent from psalm 22 for instance which prophesizes crucifixion, and does not stand alone, both psalms stand together with the rest of the bible. i will post the psalms in a follow up post for people to read.
 
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Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Psalm 91: My Refuge and My Fortress
  1. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
  2. I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
  3. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
  4. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
  5. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
  6. Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
  7. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
  8. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
  9. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
  10. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
  11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
  12. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
  13. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
  14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
  15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
  16. With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.

Psalm 22:
  1. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
  2. O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
  3. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
  4. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
  5. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
  6. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
  7. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
  8. He trusted on the LORD[a] that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
  9. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
  10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
  11. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
  12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
  13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
  14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
  15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
  16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
  17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
  18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
  19. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
  20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
  21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
  22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
  23. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
  24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
  25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
  26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
  27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
  28. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
  29. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
  30. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation.
  31. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
though in reality i dont have much time for long discussion, in particular when it is not approached with the right mindset, i will try to make it brief, there are many notions in the trials of Christ that need a deeper level of understanding in order to discuss, to list a few:

  • the nature of the devil, the role of pride and arrogance.
  • the temptation of first Adam versus Christ, the second Adam and the new rebirth.
  • the temptation of the israelites in the desert and their distrust of God at every turn.
  • now the temptations themselves:
    • the devil taking Christ to the highest edge of the temple in the Holy city, and misusing sacred scripture to test Christ. this is the last place where you would expect the devil to choose for a temptation. the spiritual attack. to which Christ answered "Do not put your Lord God to the test." a simple phrase that carries more than a single meaning, I will leave to you as an exercise to figure these meanings out.
    • hunger is the most basic of physical needs. yet Christ points out "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every every word comes from the mouth of God". the physical need attack.
    • the devil offered the world to Christ, if He would worship him. kingdoms upon kingdoms. who does this world belong to anyway? is it for the devil to offer to begin with? and here you should ask yourself did others succumb to this temptation? established dominions and forge kingdoms? but regardless, Christ replied "Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him alone" was he telling the devil or answering him? this whole world is offered to us freely with the notions that flow from God, the devil however would like to wrap these notions with authority and power to tickle vanity and pride with fake glory. Christ became the king of kings of heaven and earth through humility and the cross. the humility vs pride attack.
      to notice here the imagery of the devil "worship me and i will give you x y and z" a notion that many try to project on religion to this very day.
now with some of these issues out of the way, you can indeed find that both the devil and quran in this case are speaking with the same tongue and for the same purpose. you can think of this what you want. but at least you should wonder why the quran dedicates so much narrative to deny Crucifixion and the Divinity of Christ.

as to the video itself there is nothing striking about it, even when on the cross people taunted Christ by shouting "if you are the Son of God save yourself". psalm 91 stands true in ways different than the one presented in this video, in particular as pointed out in John's 7:30
"they were seeking to arrest him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come."
and in John's 10:18-19
"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
additionally, psalm 91 is not independent from psalm 22 for instance which prophesizes crucifixion, and does not stand alone, both psalms stand together with the rest of the bible. i will post the psalms in a follow up post for people to read.

🥱🥱🥱
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Psalm 91: My Refuge and My Fortress
  1. He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
  2. I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
  3. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
  4. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
  5. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
  6. Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
  7. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
  8. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
  9. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
  10. There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
  11. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
  12. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
  13. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
  14. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
  15. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
  16. With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.

Psalm 22:
  1. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
  2. O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
  3. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
  4. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
  5. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
  6. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
  7. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
  8. He trusted on the LORD[a] that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
  9. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
  10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
  11. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
  12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
  13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
  14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
  15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
  16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
  17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
  18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
  19. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
  20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
  21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
  22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
  23. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
  24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
  25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
  26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
  27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
  28. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
  29. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
  30. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation.
  31. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

You are drifting into so many other irrelevant issues.

The devil referred to a prophesy about the messiah that harm will not befall him nor would he be killed. Jesus did not deny it. He said it is "also" written you should not tempt God. Jews believe the messiah will not be killed based on this same prophesy. But how come you believe yours was killed? Ponder on that and save me the stories. Since you said you dont have time for "long discussion". What an irony!
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
You are drifting into so many other irrelevant issues.

The devil referred to a prophesy about the messiah that harm will not befall him nor would he be killed. Jesus did not deny it. He said it is "also" written you should not tempt God. Jews believe the messiah will not be killed based on this same prophesy. But how come you believe yours was killed? Ponder on that and save me the stories. Since you said you dont have time for "long discussion". What an irony!
let me wake you up for a second to ask you this, you do not find it ironic that both islam and the devil share the same perspective in this story?
no need for an answer, it is a rhetorical question.
you can go back to sleep now.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
let me wake you up for a second to ask you this, you do not find it ironic that both islam and the devil share the same perspective in this story?
no need for an answer, it is a rhetorical question.
you can go back to sleep now.

You are actually very funny. And very silly. The devil said "for it is written"...so this is not a standpoint shared by the devil and Islam. It is based on the standpoint of Old Testament prophesy. The devil was quoting the OT. And then Jesus also replied that "it is ALSO written you should not tempt God". Why are you arguing the obvious?
 
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Dark Angel

Legendary Member
You are actually very funny. And very silly. The devil said "for it is written"...so this is not a standpoint shared by the devil and Islam. It is based on the standpoint of Old Testament prophesy. The devil was quoting the OT. And then Jesus also replied that "it is ALSO written you should not tempt God". Why are you arguing the obvious?
then i shall answer you the same way Jesus answered the devil: it is also written that Christ will be put to death and will rise on the third day.

Hosea 6:1-2
1 “Come, let us yreturn to the Lord; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and ahe will bind us up.​
2 After two days bhe will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.​
isaiah 53
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.​
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.​
11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e]; by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.​

there are other prophecies, but these should get the message across.

i want to reiterate something i told you once before, it takes less than 4 years to get a PhD in Christian theology. you have been arguing for longer than that, i hope you managed to learn a couple of things during that time, though from the looks of it, it has pretty much all gone to waste. honestly, try to learn a thing or two, it won't hurt you.

cheers.
 

Dynamite Joe

Well-Known Member
then i shall answer you the same way Jesus answered the devil: it is also written that Christ will be put to death and will rise on the third day.

Hosea 6:1-2
1 “Come, let us yreturn to the Lord; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and ahe will bind us up.​
2 After two days bhe will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.​
isaiah 53
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.​
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.​
11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e]; by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.​

there are other prophecies, but these should get the message across.

i want to reiterate something i told you once before, it takes less than 4 years to get a PhD in Christian theology. you have been arguing for longer than that, i hope you managed to learn a couple of things during that time, though from the looks of it, it has pretty much all gone to waste. honestly, try to learn a thing or two, it won't hurt you.

cheers.

You still believe in the devil DA? I can recommend a few pills for you.
 

SAVO

Active Member
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Rafidi

Legendary Member
then i shall answer you the same way Jesus answered the devil: it is also written that Christ will be put to death and will rise on the third day.

Hosea 6:1-2
1 “Come, let us yreturn to the Lord; for he has torn us, that he may heal us; he has struck us down, and ahe will bind us up.​
2 After two days bhe will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.​
isaiah 53
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.​
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.​
11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e]; by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.​

there are other prophecies, but these should get the message across.

i want to reiterate something i told you once before, it takes less than 4 years to get a PhD in Christian theology. you have been arguing for longer than that, i hope you managed to learn a couple of things during that time, though from the looks of it, it has pretty much all gone to waste. honestly, try to learn a thing or two, it won't hurt you.

cheers.

So one prophesy says he wont or cant be harmed, and that prophesy was put forward in the presence of Jesus himself, who conceded by saying "it is ALSO written" and Jews believed in an unharmed Messiah throughout even before his birth...and you find some other narrative about someone carrying certain burdens and you plaster them on Jesus. Certainly, one has to be erratic. And dont forget you can find both in the same book. And you can guess which is the erratic one.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
@Dark Angel have you ever heard about this church ?

it is present in italy and i dont think it exist anywhere else outside italy ..
this church is very respected in italy , by catholic , atheists , and all other religious community , because it is very involved in the social issues and charity .



Waldensian Evangelical Church - Wikipedia
small congregations are usually not all that known outside their local environment. most Christians around the world for instance, even Catholics, have no clue what Maronites are, despite numbering in millions. outside media headlines and some internet outlets, not much emphasis is placed on differences between churches as far as the majority of believers are concerned, part of the reasons why there are no conflicts between Catholics, Orthodox, and Maronites in Lebanon; which contributes to blurring the names of local churches.
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
So one prophesy says he wont or cant be harmed, and that prophesy was put forward in the presence of Jesus himself, who conceded by saying "it is ALSO written" and Jews believed in an unharmed Messiah throughout even before his birth...and you find some other narrative about someone carrying certain burdens and you plaster them on Jesus. Certainly, one has to be erratic. And dont forget you can find both in the same book. And you can guess which is the erratic one.
that narrative is only a problem for someone who does not understand the written scriptures and the role of prophecy in the Christian faith and cannot tap into why most the Jewish people failed to recognize Jesus as the awaited Messiah, in particular when he was crucified instead of delivering their earthly enemies to their feet. many of those people fell out favor with the eastern roman empire and where banished into the desert where they formed the roots from which islam sprang out.

i know you will be stuck on this for a long time and you will continue to argue it day and day out, the contradiction you are offering is beyond superficial, and the fact that Jesus didn't argue it out doesn't tell much, as very often Jesus did not engage in arguments with people, and more often than not they failed to understand what He was talking about. for instance, when Jesus told the devil "it is also written do not test the Lord your God", when the devil was testing Him, he was alluring to Himself as well, telling the devil "do not test me".

and it suffices that in every gospel Jesus himself foretells his own crucifixion, death and resurrection.

Matthew 17:22-23
He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
Matthew 20:17-19
Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

so it follows that your whole point becomes meaningless if you widen your scope, however we both know that's not going to happen.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
that narrative is only a problem for someone who does not understand the written scriptures and the role of prophecy in the Christian faith and cannot tap into why most the Jewish people failed to recognize Jesus as the awaited Messiah, in particular when he was crucified instead of delivering their earthly enemies to their feet. many of those people fell out favor with the eastern roman empire and where banished into the desert where they formed the roots from which islam sprang out.

i know you will be stuck on this for a long time and you will continue to argue it day and day out, the contradiction you are offering is beyond superficial, and the fact that Jesus didn't argue it out doesn't tell much, as very often Jesus did not engage in arguments with people, and more often than not they failed to understand what He was talking about. for instance, when Jesus told the devil "it is also written do not test the Lord your God", when the devil was testing Him, he was alluring to Himself as well, telling the devil "do not test me".

and it suffices that in every gospel Jesus himself foretells his own crucifixion, death and resurrection.
Ya 3ammeh you choose not to understand it...the message in the video is very clear and straightforward and it is based on "written" prophesy that was confirmed in the presence of Jesus himself and his reply. You cant afford to accept just one prophesy to dismantle an entire faith and religion with a history and doctrines and writings and analysis and books based on crucifixion of over 2000 years. That is quite understandable. Bad habits do not die easily. I do not expect you to agree.

But for someone who said he doesnt have time for long discussion, how long is a "long discussion" in your estimation? 😄 It shows how bothered you are. If you have an atom of sincerity, just this one prophesy will make you to stop being a Christian who believes in the crucifixion. Just an atom of sincerity. You can perhaps continue to be a "Christian" without believing in the crucifixion, if your mind filled with hatred doesnt allow you become a Muslim. This prophesy will bug your conscience, if you have a small amount of conscience, for the rest of your life. Ma'asalam.

Matthew 17:22-23
He said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and after three days he will rise." But they did not understand what he meant and were afraid to ask him about it.
Matthew 20:17-19
Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

so it follows that your whole point becomes meaningless if you widen your scope, however we both know that's not going to happen.

"He said to them"...who is talking here? That suffices to make you reflect. I dont know how he would say that to them, when there was a prophesy he acknowledged that makes him "un-harm-able". Ma'asalam.
 
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