Deep into Druze faith

Mysobalanus

Mysobalanus

New Member
Basically, everything you said. You sound like a revisionist not a Druze scholar.
The Dai Ammar are located in Deir Qobel near Chouiefat. They have a holy site there. Simply visit them and you'll notice that they're not dressed in Islamic attire. You can also look at online pictures as I believe Teymour Joumblat recently made a visit there and met with their current leader.

In the Epistles of Wisdom, there's two letters addressed to women and are accessible online. Neither suggests Islamic dress-code. I'm definitely not a revisionist. The Druze founders were very radical against Islam. Mohammad is called a "madman" and a "bastard child" directly in letters. So why would the Druze reject the Islamic prophecy, the Qur'an, the Islamic tenets but stick to the dress-code? I don't get your point.
 
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  • Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Anyway no one cares enough about the Druze to bother read up on their beliefs. But judging by recent history, they are the most violent group in Lebanon by far.
    Your attempts at whitewashing their history is not working.

    Everytime an invader came to Lebanon, they made them their best friend.
    They will do anything to piss off the Christians!
    Dude don't scare away the new member immediately let us pretend to be normal people until he gets hooked then we'll send lvv on a crusade ?
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    Anyway no one cares enough about the Druze to bother read up on their beliefs. But judging by recent history, they are the most violent group in Lebanon by far.
    Your attempts at whitewashing their history is not working.

    Everytime an invader came to Lebanon, they made them their best friend.
    They will do anything to piss off the Christians!
    I didn't bring up any moral history or civil-war politics. But if you want to put yourself in that corner, Maronites and Druze both played the same game with invaders (whether French for you and British for us, Israeli for you and Palestinian with us) and committed mistakes when they should have stood with each other for Mt Lebanon. I'm not proud of our history or mistakes, but Druze and Christians are now closer than ever and it's a shame you'd bring up this when we've put all that behind us. And when Christians among each other have done even more horrible war-crimes.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    The Dai Ammar are located in Deir Qobel near Chouiefat. They have a holy site there. Simply visit them and you'll notice that they're not dressed in Islamic attire. You can also look at online pictures as I believe Teymour Joumblat recently made a visit there and met with their current leader.

    In the Epistles of Wisdom, there's two letters addressed to women and are accessible online. Neither suggests Islamic dress-code. I'm definitely not a revisionist. The Druze founders were very radical against Islam. Mohammad is called a "madman" and a "bastard child" directly in letters. So why would the Druze reject the Islamic prophecy, the Qur'an, the Islamic tenets but stick to the dress-code? I don't get your point.
    The only place in Lebanon where displaced Christians have yet to return is the Chouf. It says a lot about their tolerance for other sects!
    But anyway it you guys hate Moe like you claim, then you have potential to change.
    No wonder you keep your faith secretive if you believe he's a "bastard child."
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

    New Member
    The only place in Lebanon where displaced Christians have yet to return is the Chouf. It says a lot about their tolerance for other sects!
    I don't think that's 100% accurate. I may be wrong here, but West Beirut, Dahyieh and Saida had a sizable Christian population before the war.
     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    Well my village is half druze half christians, it is one of the few villages in Lebanon that war didn't torn it appart and its population always cohabited. Moreover we have Mazar Nabi Shuaib, that was built few years ago, and big portion of the donation came from a Christian.
    Only the elder son in the family is illigable of some religious teachings. But that doesn't guarantee him all the knowledge, also they are not allowed to share any information even to their families.
    Like Jews, you cannot be Druze if your blood is not. Most importantly the blood is carried by the women, that is why they are not tolerant to Druze girls marriying other sects.

    Because they are minority, they will ally with the devil even if it is against their believes. This is part of their survival practice. In Lebanon they sided with the Palestinians، but when the Israelis entered their towns they supported them. The Syrians killed Kamal, but Walid still sided with the Syrians because they were the defacto force in Lebanon.
    I don't believe that Druze are more close to Christians than to Muslims. Their day to day practise doesn't tell that. Druze shops don't sell alcohol or pork, many of them feast and share the Eid holidays with the Muslims. Druze is a recognized Muslim sect within Al Azhar.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    Well my village is half druze half christians, it is one of the few villages in Lebanon that war did it torn it appart and its population always cohabited. Moreover we have Mazar Nabi Shuaib, that was built few years ago, and big portion of the donation came from a Christian.
    Only the elder son in the family is illigable of some religious teachings. But that doesn't guarantee him all the knowledge, also they are not allowed to share any information even to their families.
    Like Jews, you cannot be Druze if your blood is not. Most importantly the blood is carried by the women, that is why they are not tolerant to Druze girls marriying other sects.

    Because they are minority, they will ally with the devil even if it is against their believes. This is part of their survival practice. In Lebanon they sided with the Palestinians، but when the Israelis entered their towns they supported them. The Syrians killed Kamal, but Walid still sided with the Syrians because they were the defacto force in Lebanon.
    I don't believe that Druze are more close to Christians than to Muslims. Their day to day practise doesn't tell that. Druze shops don't sell alcohol or pork, many of them feast and share the Eid holidays with the Muslims. Druze is a recognized Muslim sect within Al Azhar.
    False. Al-Azhar declared us as kaffirs. And in Druze areas, you can buy pork and alchohol and people consume it. Araq and Beer are very common.
     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    False. Al-Azhar declared us as kaffirs. And in Druze areas, you can buy pork and alchohol and people consume it. Araq and Beer are very common.
    In my town they are not even allowed to sell cigarettes. Check about it.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    The only place in Lebanon where displaced Christians have yet to return is the Chouf. It says a lot about their tolerance for other sects!
    But anyway it you guys hate Moe like you claim, then you have potential to change.
    No wonder you keep your faith secretive if you believe he's a "bastard child."
    In my area, Christians were never displaced but actually stayed. We have three churches, two Maronite and one Ruum. I've also seen Christians return to Aley (the only other Druze district besides Chouf to begin with) so your statement isn't at all accurate. As Geagea points out, currently there's no actual intolerance or displacement towards Christians (but some just settled in different areas or left Lebanon as a whole). Perhaps the only Druze I met who still hold serious grudges agaisnt Christians are of the Sha7aar area. But a lot of progress has been made in the recent years to bring them closer to Christians.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    In my town they are not even allowed to sell cigarettes. Check about it.
    Well the monks are not allowed to consume cigs or alcohol, so won't sell it in their shops. But the commoners should be allowed to sell it and consume it. I buy beer from shops in my area in the Aley district from Druze owners. I also know a Druze hunter in Aley who gets me wild hog. The ban on alcohol comes from a fake, exoteric letter added by Tanoukhi. So alcohol in small quantities should be allowed theoretically. But Druze monks argue that they prefer full focus when doing religious studies. While Nusayris do use it before rituals as a spiritual drink.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    False. Al-Azhar declared us as kaffirs. And in Druze areas, you can buy pork and alchohol and people consume it. Araq and Beer are very common.
    It is recognized by Al Azhar as a Muslim sect. Check my earlier post.
    The Druze in Saudi Arabia can visit Mecca if I'm not mistaken. They hold Muslim iqamas.

    Most Druze loved to identify as Muslim when the Ottomans and later Syrians were in power.
    But now that Muslims are being demonized worldwide, the Druze are trying hard to avoid this association.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    It is recognized by Al Azhar as a Muslim sect. Check my earlier post.
    The Druze in Saudi Arabia can visit Mecca if I'm not mistaken. They hold Muslim iqamas.

    Most Druze loved to identify as Muslim when the Ottomans and later Syrians were in power.
    But now that Muslims are being demonized worldwide, the Druze are trying hard to avoid this association.
    Do you have a link on whether the recognition of the Azhat is still valid? Azhar "scientists" go on Egyptian TV (e.g Safaa Studio) and attack the Druze as infidels and some have even released books against us. Not to mention Ibn Tammiyah calls us Kaffirs in his Fatwah.
     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    Well the monks are not allowed to consume cigs or alcohol, so won't sell it in their shops. But the commoners should be allowed to sell it and consume it. I buy beer from shops in my area in the Aley district from Druze owners. I also know a Druze hunter in Aley who gets me wild hog. The ban on alcohol comes from a fake, exoteric letter added by Tanoukhi. So alcohol in small quantities should be allowed theoretically. But Druze monks argue that they prefer full focus when doing religious studies. While Nusayris do use it before rituals as a spiritual drink.
    I buy hogs from Druze too, but do they sell ham or pork hot dogs in their shops? Of course not.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    I buy hogs from Druze too, but do they sell ham or pork hot dogs in their shops? Of course not.
    I see what you're saying. There is certainly a problem of Arabism/Islamism within the Druze community. I've even met Druze that are lost between Taqiyah and Truth and started reciting me verses from the Qur'an :). And I try to argue against it with my brethern and they tend to be receptive. But it's also due to whole arabization campaign in our educational systems which is stripping Christians and Druze away of their cultural identity.
     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    I see what you're saying. There is certainly a problem of Arabism/Islamism within the Druze community. I've even met Druze that are lost between Taqiyah and Truth and started reciting me verses from the Qur'an :). And I try to argue against it with my brethern and they tend to be receptive. But it's also due to whole arabization campaign in our educational systems which is stripping Christians and Druze away of their cultural identity.
    No offense bro. In my village there are no Muslims, couldn't be that it is only taqiyah. Everybody are programmed to see the Muslims as there natural allies and not the other way around.
    I hope we can find more common ground, because I believe that the Christians and the Druze are more nationalist and believe in Lebanon as a country and don't believe in one 2umma or wilayit faqih.
     
    AtheistForJesus

    AtheistForJesus

    Well-Known Member
    No offense bro. In my village there are no Muslims, couldn't be that it is only taqiyah. Everybody are programmed to see the Muslims as there natural allies and not the other way around.
    I hope we can find more common ground, because I believe that the Christians and the Druze are more nationalist and believe in Lebanon as a country and don't believe in one 2umma or wilayit faqih.
    My experiences with the Druze have been negative for the most part.
    It seems like Taqiya and deceit are part of their everyday life, and not just a measure they resort to during times of war.
     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    My experiences with the Druze have been negative for the most part.
    It seems like Taqiya and deceit are part of their everyday life, and not just a measure they resort to during times of war.
    I agree, but they paid a heavy blood price over the years to survive in this region, same as the Christians. They cannot continue to dissimulate forever in this hostile region. And at one point they will extinct if they continue in this path.Most of them understand that now. The percentage of Druze and Christians will continue to fall in the region, and we are very vulnerable now. Look at what happened to the Iraqian Christians or the Yazidis, and a few weeks ago in Syria with Druze and everyday with Copts in Egypt.
    That is why I am saying that we have to find more common ground.
     
    Ice Tea

    Ice Tea

    Member
    I hope we can find more common ground, because I believe that the Christians and the Druze are more nationalist and believe in Lebanon as a country and don't believe in one 2umma or wilayit faqih.
    You're right. That's because Christians and Druzes are the only ones who have a deep connection to the land called Lebanon. Muslims, on the other hand, couldn't careless if Lebanon gets completely destroyed in their war against Israel.
     
    Ice Tea

    Ice Tea

    Member
    Hi, I'm Druze.

    1- Druze books

    The main secret books are found online (you can check archive.org). They were mostly revealed after the Ottoman invasions. There's other secondary books that remain secretive and I have some of those. However, a lot of the Druze faith is maintained in oral traditions. The text also includes esoteric blinders and so doesn't reveal fully what is intended.

    2- Druze relation to Christianity

    In terms of creed, the Druze faith is definitely closer to Christianity than it is to Islam. But I'd say Druze are closer to Gnostic Christians and Rosicrucian Freemasons than to typical Christians.

    (1) We reject Mohammad and the Qur'an (aside from some of subtle gnostic references within it),. but we do accept Master Jesus (before resurrection) as one of our five masters (the first bound of the five). The Druze also follow Master John the Baptist (second bound of the five) and other biblical figures (e.g Mark). And it's reported some Druze had baptism like the second son of Sultan Basha Al-Atrash. Also many Druze (e.g my mom) think of St Charbel and St Maron as our high esoteric monks and believe in their blessings.

    (2) The Druze's most revered Al Hakem Bi Amr Allah was of a Melekite Christian mother. And there's speculation whether one of the founders, Master Bahaa, was of a Christian origin. That's because he is called "The Guest" among Druze and showed great knowledge of Christianity. To the point that in his correspondence with the Christians of Constantinople, they thought he was a heretic Christian.

    (3) Master Bahaa even stated clearly that the Christian Saints were the first to follow the actual God (He who appears to mankind) and not the long-lost nothingness (as opposed to those who stayed in the belly of the whale). However, he got a negative response from Constantinople for suggesting heretical beliefs, and so did write an angry letter in the end of the corresopondance. At the time, both Druze and Christians were under persecution and so he described Christians as a "wounded and obnoxious animal that attacks you while you try to help it, making you regret ever having sympathy for it."

    (4) Some Knight Templar lineages claim descent from Druzes or that the secret societies in Lebanon shaped the secrecy and organization followed by them. I suggest reading Entering the Chain of Union by Timothy Hogan or listening to some of his podcasts. There's also white Europeans today who are Druze, as their lineages joined the Druze faith when conversion was allowed. They go under "The reunited Druzes" and other names. Formerly, the Druze branch within Freemasonry was the "Order of the Brazen Serpent" but now it includes Sufis.

    3- Druze genetics

    Lebanese Druze are genetically the closest to Lebanese Maronites [Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture] so blood ties do exist there. However, most Druze adhere to false genetic lies about them being from Arab or Yemenite origins, when that's not true and was done for political purposes (my family being one of those who used that for political power in Syria). If anything, Druze are mostly of Anatolian descent and ancestors of the inhabitants of the area surrounding Lake Van in Turkey and migrated down to reach Lebanon and Syria. So genetically far away from Arabs and closer to Maronites and Jews.

    4- Druze Rituals and Beliefs

    It is said that Druze are a branch of Nizari Ismealis. However, Druze and Nusayris both share a lot of beliefs, and yet one is said to come from the Seveners and one from the Twelvers. In my honest opinion, those secret societies seem to have always existed in Lebanon and Syria even before Islam. And so Master Hamza built his religion based around a secret society that was able to reach to power during that time and become public. With clear roots of Vedatic appearances of God - Hinduism, and other aspects of old religion.

    Druze do not fast in the literal sense, but the esoteric monks only eat very small portions of food. Druze do not pray in the literal sense, but recite poetry e.g on the return of Al-Hakem. Druze do not go on pilgrimage or actually celebrate Islamic holidays (it's done as pretense to outsiders, usually with a Druze celebration done in that time). Druze monks do avoid physical pleasure and believe it is worldly, and reach an alleviated sense of spirituality were they're too engulfed with thoughts and meditation to turn to bodily functions.

    There's rumors on calf-worship or sexual orgies within Druze temples, however they're clearly false and were done by individuals trying to disrepute the Druze's ultra-conservatism. Men and women are separated into different rooms and usually three meetings are held: One that's accessible to the public. Second in which esoteric poetry is recited among only the Uqqal (the initiated). And third were high monks alone discuss politics and social problems in their area. The rooms are not lit per old tradition in ancient religions. Even followed by Freemasons today in initiation rituals.

    Druze believe in reincarnation from human to human (with all souls created at inception - neo-platonism). While Nusayris believe that human souls can transmigrate into animals and stars. Which is why there was a huge split between them and the Druze, when both shared the same secret lodges in the Fatimid caliphate. Nusayris argue Ali Ibn Ali Taleb is an incarnation of God and has appeared in animals such as the dog of Al-Kahf and the Cow that Moses ordered to be slaughtered. While Druze reject that completely and consider Ali Ibn Abi Taleb to be a bound of evil . Druze argue God reflected himself into Al-Hakem and other historic figures preceding him (however, like a light reflects into a mirror). And so Al-Hakem is a spiritual surface meant to reflect the little of God which we barely can understand.

    That's really the gist of it. You can learn more by reading the Epistles of Wisdom online (note that the first four letters are false and meant to dissuade outsiders, it really starts after Letter 5).
    Hi, I'm Druze.

    1- Druze books

    The main secret books are found online (you can check archive.org). They were mostly revealed after the Ottoman invasions. There's other secondary books that remain secretive and I have some of those. However, a lot of the Druze faith is maintained in oral traditions. The text also includes esoteric blinders and so doesn't reveal fully what is intended.

    2- Druze relation to Christianity

    In terms of creed, the Druze faith is definitely closer to Christianity than it is to Islam. But I'd say Druze are closer to Gnostic Christians and Rosicrucian Freemasons than to typical Christians.

    (1) We reject Mohammad and the Qur'an (aside from some of subtle gnostic references within it),. but we do accept Master Jesus (before resurrection) as one of our five masters (the first bound of the five). The Druze also follow Master John the Baptist (second bound of the five) and other biblical figures (e.g Mark). And it's reported some Druze had baptism like the second son of Sultan Basha Al-Atrash. Also many Druze (e.g my mom) think of St Charbel and St Maron as our high esoteric monks and believe in their blessings.

    (2) The Druze's most revered Al Hakem Bi Amr Allah was of a Melekite Christian mother. And there's speculation whether one of the founders, Master Bahaa, was of a Christian origin. That's because he is called "The Guest" among Druze and showed great knowledge of Christianity. To the point that in his correspondence with the Christians of Constantinople, they thought he was a heretic Christian.

    (3) Master Bahaa even stated clearly that the Christian Saints were the first to follow the actual God (He who appears to mankind) and not the long-lost nothingness (as opposed to those who stayed in the belly of the whale). However, he got a negative response from Constantinople for suggesting heretical beliefs, and so did write an angry letter in the end of the corresopondance. At the time, both Druze and Christians were under persecution and so he described Christians as a "wounded and obnoxious animal that attacks you while you try to help it, making you regret ever having sympathy for it."

    (4) Some Knight Templar lineages claim descent from Druzes or that the secret societies in Lebanon shaped the secrecy and organization followed by them. I suggest reading Entering the Chain of Union by Timothy Hogan or listening to some of his podcasts. There's also white Europeans today who are Druze, as their lineages joined the Druze faith when conversion was allowed. They go under "The reunited Druzes" and other names. Formerly, the Druze branch within Freemasonry was the "Order of the Brazen Serpent" but now it includes Sufis.

    3- Druze genetics

    Lebanese Druze are genetically the closest to Lebanese Maronites [Genome-Wide Diversity in the Levant Reveals Recent Structuring by Culture] so blood ties do exist there. However, most Druze adhere to false genetic lies about them being from Arab or Yemenite origins, when that's not true and was done for political purposes (my family being one of those who used that for political power in Syria). If anything, Druze are mostly of Anatolian descent and ancestors of the inhabitants of the area surrounding Lake Van in Turkey and migrated down to reach Lebanon and Syria. So genetically far away from Arabs and closer to Maronites and Jews.

    4- Druze Rituals and Beliefs

    It is said that Druze are a branch of Nizari Ismealis. However, Druze and Nusayris both share a lot of beliefs, and yet one is said to come from the Seveners and one from the Twelvers. In my honest opinion, those secret societies seem to have always existed in Lebanon and Syria even before Islam. And so Master Hamza built his religion based around a secret society that was able to reach to power during that time and become public. With clear roots of Vedatic appearances of God - Hinduism, and other aspects of old religion.

    Druze do not fast in the literal sense, but the esoteric monks only eat very small portions of food. Druze do not pray in the literal sense, but recite poetry e.g on the return of Al-Hakem. Druze do not go on pilgrimage or actually celebrate Islamic holidays (it's done as pretense to outsiders, usually with a Druze celebration done in that time). Druze monks do avoid physical pleasure and believe it is worldly, and reach an alleviated sense of spirituality were they're too engulfed with thoughts and meditation to turn to bodily functions.

    There's rumors on calf-worship or sexual orgies within Druze temples, however they're clearly false and were done by individuals trying to disrepute the Druze's ultra-conservatism. Men and women are separated into different rooms and usually three meetings are held: One that's accessible to the public. Second in which esoteric poetry is recited among only the Uqqal (the initiated). And third were high monks alone discuss politics and social problems in their area. The rooms are not lit per old tradition in ancient religions. Even followed by Freemasons today in initiation rituals.

    Druze believe in reincarnation from human to human (with all souls created at inception - neo-platonism). While Nusayris believe that human souls can transmigrate into animals and stars. Which is why there was a huge split between them and the Druze, when both shared the same secret lodges in the Fatimid caliphate. Nusayris argue Ali Ibn Ali Taleb is an incarnation of God and has appeared in animals such as the dog of Al-Kahf and the Cow that Moses ordered to be slaughtered. While Druze reject that completely and consider Ali Ibn Abi Taleb to be a bound of evil . Druze argue God reflected himself into Al-Hakem and other historic figures preceding him (however, like a light reflects into a mirror). And so Al-Hakem is a spiritual surface meant to reflect the little of God which we barely can understand.

    That's really the gist of it. You can learn more by reading the Epistles of Wisdom online (note that the first four letters are false and meant to dissuade outsiders, it really starts after Letter 5).

    Interesting. About the Nusayris/Alawites, this guy I talked to also said he consider Druzes and Alawites to be the SAME people. Like you said, there are some differences especially about the reincarnation issue, but overall the believes seem to be very similar.

    Also, do you agree that most Druzes descend from Christian converts due to its original message? If I recall, Druze was first called Unitarian movement, which sought to unite Shias, Sunnis and Christians. So Christians who were under heavy pressure to convert to Islam saw this new faith as a way to keep some of their Christian believes while portraying themselves as Muslims.
     
    Mysobalanus

    Mysobalanus

    New Member
    Interesting. About the Nusayris/Alawites, this guy I talked to also said he consider Druzes and Alawites to be the SAME people. Like you said, there are some differences especially about the reincarnation issue, but overall the believes seem to be very similar.

    Also, do you agree that most Druzes descend from Christian converts due to its original message? If I recall, Druze was first called Unitarian movement, which sought to unite Shias, Sunnis and Christians. So Christians who were under heavy pressure to convert to Islam saw this new faith as a way to keep some of their Christian believes while portraying themselves as Muslims.
    The Nusayris are more anti-Christian than the Druze. They curse Christianity and St Maron by name in their prayers. For a full comparison, Nusayri Faith – النصيرية

    Druze founders initially went to Syria, but didn't get lucky there (perhaps due to Nusayri competition). They found luck among the inhabitants of Mt Lebanon, which are said to be naturally anti-Islamic and isolated from the cities. So I imagine many of them would have been Christians, Jews or Pagans. There's also relics of ancient Jewish cemetries in Druze villages (e.g the ancient Jewish fortress in Sarahmoul Lebanon). Which would explain why Druze are very genetically close to Maronites and Jews.
     
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