Deep into Druze faith

Lebmonage

Lebmonage

Legendary Member
How can one trust a Druze when their faith revolves around "deceit"?
Also, if the headcovering thing is just part of a plot to appeal to Arabs, why do many Druze women maintain this tradition today? It's not like they're being persecuted by Muslims.
That's a good point.

I think they mostly adopt outward beliefs and say things that would appeal to their surrounding. He claims they dont believe in Prophet Muhammad...but in the same post claims they came from the Ismailis (a branch of Shia Islam). Its more or less a case if behaving like a Roman when you're in Rome. They can go to China and claim they have things in common with Buddhists and have a common descent with the Chinese. I now see why jumblatt is what he is.
 
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  • Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    The Dai Ammar are located in Deir Qobel near Chouiefat. They have a holy site there. Simply visit them and you'll notice that they're not dressed in Islamic attire. You can also look at online pictures as I believe Teymour Joumblat recently made a visit there and met with their current leader.

    In the Epistles of Wisdom, there's two letters addressed to women and are accessible online. Neither suggests Islamic dress-code. I'm definitely not a revisionist. The Druze founders were very radical against Islam. Mohammad is called a "madman" and a "bastard child" directly in letters. So why would the Druze reject the Islamic prophecy, the Qur'an, the Islamic tenets but stick to the dress-code? I don't get your point.
    When you have more than one founder, it is easy for differences to emerge among yourselves. From this I can say you likely have sects among yourselves, which you are not revealing, who hold conflicting beliefs. And it appears that some of your beliefs like the ones you stated above about the Prophet are reactionary. Maybe you got butchered by some Sunni caliphate forces and you mourn by insulting the Prophet. Like such utterances sound very incoherent and unstable. They dont sound like coming from any historical sources or texts. They are emotional outbursts. That's how they sound. If I have never met Adam and Eve, and I start calling them names with any historical sources to use, my sanity must be questioned. Even when Christian use character assassination against the Prophet, they make use of certain fabrications in the body of the hadiths, mainly Sunni hadith's to pass judgment.

    From what I know too, the Druze respect Salman al-Farisi, who was a Persian and a close companion of Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali. The druze also revere Prophet Ayoub (Prophet Job in the Bible). I think there is much incoherence. And you believe in reincarnation. I really dont understand what is keeping you as a one united group with such incoherent beliefs. Maybe more of the tribal identity and affiliation and thus the notion that you shouldn't intermarry. I think with such incoherence, it is a matter of time before you complete disappear as a religious group. Ive come across two druze who actually pray five times a day, following the Sunni method of praying. Like they would fold their arms and the content of the five prayers is Sunni and not Shia. And they are originally a Shia offshoot before the tokhbees.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    You are definitely unto something. While Druze do not actually like Ali, Druze founders and some of the early converts were Ismeali Sevener Shiah so would have had a high consideration for Ali before branching off. And I'm told Mitwali means "Those who took Ali as the Walleh".

    The post I linked does go into some details on different rituals and beliefs (I don't go into further details for purposes of secrecy). I do not cover language or race though. Druze genetically seem to branch down from Turkey and are the closest to Sephardi Jews.
    My point really, that you may have differences in beliefs among yourselves or simply put, you may have sects among yourselves which outsiders dont know of. It is the tribal affiliation that is holding you guys together more than religious beliefs.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    No Metwali means Hebrew speaking and Aramaic speaking believers. They were Jews.
    Only Iran Twelver Shi'a make the claim that the Metwali were loyalists to Ali
    Metwali means loyalists to the Prophet, and a large number of khawarij were Metwali and so were The Mu'tazellah.
    This is an article about the Metwali in Lebanon. But I have other sources, Ismaili were Metwali but also other sectarian groups as well.
    Wallah you are a problem. Before Iran existed as a majority Shia nation, the metweleh existed in south Lebanon. The metewleh are Shia from Jabal Amel. How are they Jews? Ok, if you say they descended from Jews or converted to Shia Islam from the Jewish faith, I can understand. We live in the same area and such reality is common in this part of the world, especially in the past. But to tell me point blank without specifying that they are Jews? That is creating what doesn't exist. You blow a lot of thin air that you aim to pass as historical fact or scholarly work. Its not scholarly. Its tissue paper! I am a metweleh and I am from one of the villages in the heart of Jabal amel. I am not a Jew. Could have ancestors who may have been Jews? It is a possibility not to be ruled out even though I have no evidence for it. My paternal lineage for all I know isn't jewish in any sense. Maybe one of my many maternal lineages could have been Jewish.
     
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    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Wallah you are a problem. Before Iran existed as a majority Shia nation, the metweleh existed in south Lebanon. The metewleh are Shia from Jabal Amel. How are they Jews? Ok, if you say they descended from Jews or converted to Shia Islam from the Jewish faith, I can understand. We live in the same area and such reality is common in this part of the world, especially in the past. But to tell me point blank without specifying that they are Jews? That is creating what doesn't exist. You blow a lot of thin air that you aim to pass as historical fact or scholarly work. Its not scholarly. Its tissue paper! I am a metweleh and I am from one of the villages in the heart of Jabal amel. I am not a Jew. Could have ancestors who may have been Jews? It is a possibility not to be ruled out even though I have no evidence for it. My paternal lineage for all I know isn't jewish in any sense. Maybe one of my many maternal lineages could have been Jewish.
    Have you had your genes tested? You should compare yourself to West Asian Jews and see population distances.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    Active Member
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    When you have more than one founder, it is easy for differences to emerge among yourselves. From this I can say you likely have sects among yourselves, which you are not revealing, who hold conflicting beliefs. And it appears that some of your beliefs like the ones you stated above about the Prophet are reactionary. Maybe you got butchered by some Sunni caliphate forces and you mourn by insulting the Prophet. Like such utterances sound very incoherent and unstable. They dont sound like coming from any historical sources or texts. They are emotional outbursts. That's how they sound. If I have never met Adam and Eve, and I start calling them names with any historical sources to use, my sanity must be questioned. Even when Christian use character assassination against the Prophet, they make use of certain fabrications in the body of the hadiths, mainly Sunni hadith's to pass judgment.
    I don't want to go over the Islamic Prophet. But the Druze have strict standards when it comes to spirituality among elders. And they don't think the Islamic Prophet complies with the basics of those or even Ali ibn Abi Taleb. It's not reactionary but follows a theological pattern of a religious element the Druze call the "hurrier". I can expand in that in private as I don't want to offend Muslims.

    From what I know too, the Druze respect Salman al-Farisi, who was a Persian and a close companion of Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali. The druze also revere Prophet Ayoub (Prophet Job in the Bible). I think there is much incoherence. And you believe in reincarnation. I really dont understand what is keeping you as a one united group with such incoherent beliefs. Maybe more of the tribal identity and affiliation and thus the notion that you shouldn't intermarry. I think with such incoherence, it is a matter of time before you complete disappear as a religious group. Ive come across two druze who actually pray five times a day, following the Sunni method of praying. Like they would fold their arms and the content of the five prayers is Sunni and not Shia. And they are originally a Shia offshoot before the tokhbees.
    The Druze (like other gnostics) believe there are hidden masters that maintain enlightenment in secrecy when a mainstream religion starts and is for common people with humble understanding and then is deformed through being public and adhered to by different people. Going by the standard that "Enlightenment is lost on many and maintained by few". So Salman Al-Farisi is considered to be acting in secret in the Druze faith and enriching Mohammad with Christian doctrines (as he was a Christian originally). But not really on boat with the mainstream religion meant for common people at that time or Islam. I don't see how any of that is contradictory.

    Moreover, those Druze you say that pray five times a day are either ignorant of the basic faith and scripture or lying to you. The first thing Hamza does in the scripture is refute the Islamic tenets including prayer. And the scripture is found online in Arabic.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    My point really, that you may have differences in beliefs among yourselves or simply put, you may have sects among yourselves which outsiders dont know of. It is the tribal affiliation that is holding you guys together more than religious beliefs.
    That's very false. There are different readings and groups in the Druze faith. But they agree on the fundamentals. The Dawah was closed early on, so the faith didn't evolve or change with new adherrrents like other faiths. The main problem with the Druze faith is that the corpus itself is not very complete and so different Sheikhs can have different opinions on things. But if I go to Israel or Syria and talk with Druze privately, they share all my beliefs and at best would just debate particulars.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Also the Druze Five founders were in one lodge. It's not like they were different parties. And they're ranked in order of importance. So there's not a lot of difference on them. There's slight difference between the Dai Ammar faction and other Druze on appearances of Al-Hakem and slight difference between the Ghaithi reading and the traditional + Dai Ammar reading on the origin of the early hermetic faith (Ancient Egypt VS Ancient India).

    Moreover, it's not like the Druze pretend to have similarities with other religions. They argue from a unitarian universal standpoint and so look at Vedatic appearances in Hinduism or Tibetan Buddhism as potential signs of their own masters.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Moreover, I don't think the Druze are an Ismeali offshoot. But more of secret society in the Lebanese mountains that was influenced by them. By the same token, Assasins are said to be an Ismeali offshoot but reject Mohammad. And Qarmatians are said to be an Ismeali offshoot but have cursed Mohammad and destroyed the Kaaba. There's also a secrecy to Ismealism that I won't discuss here and to Abu Khatab's influence on Imam Ismael which may hold keys to what I'm saying.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    I don't want to go over the Islamic Prophet. But the Druze have strict standards when it comes to spirituality among elders. And they don't think the Islamic Prophet complies with the basics of those or even Ali ibn Abi Taleb. It's not reactionary but follows a theological pattern of a religious element the Druze call the "hurrier". I can expand in that in private as I don't want to offend Muslims.



    The Druze (like other gnostics) believe there are hidden masters that maintain enlightenment in secrecy when a mainstream religion starts and is for common people with humble understanding and then is deformed through being public and adhered to by different people. Going by the standard that "Enlightenment is lost on many and maintained by few". So Salman Al-Farisi is considered to be acting in secret in the Druze faith and enriching Mohammad with Christian doctrines (as he was a Christian originally). But not really on boat with the mainstream religion meant for common people at that time or Islam. I don't see how any of that is contradictory.

    Moreover, those Druze you say that pray five times a day are either ignorant of the basic faith and scripture or lying to you. The first thing Hamza does in the scripture is refute the Islamic tenets including prayer. And the scripture is found online in Arabic.
    You don't have to offend anyone.

    You can just state your so called "standards" and let us know who formed them.

    Tell us of your hidden masters and on what basis are they "hidden masters" and who made them such.

    It doesn't need much.
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    Moreover, I don't think the Druze are an Ismeali offshoot. But more of secret society in the Lebanese mountains that was influenced by them. By the same token, Assasins are said to be an Ismeali offshoot but reject Mohammad. And Qarmatians are said to be an Ismeali offshoot but have cursed Mohammad and destroyed the Kaaba. There's also a secrecy to Ismealism that I won't discuss here and to Abu Khatab's influence on Imam Ismael which may hold keys to what I'm saying.
    So you guys aren't Muslims at all and you have been lying to us all along in Lebanon, to the extent that you take a share of the quota reserved for Muslims in parliament and in govt. Isn't time for Muslims to disown you?
     
    SeaAb

    SeaAb

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    So you guys aren't Muslims at all and you have been lying to us all along in Lebanon, to the extent that you take a share of the quota reserved for Muslims in parliament and in govt. Isn't time for Muslims to disown you?
    Why did you consider them Muslims to begin with when not a single Druze ever went to Hajj - 1 of 5 pillars of Islam?
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    You don't have to offend anyone.

    You can just state your so called "standards" and let us know who formed them.

    Tell us of your hidden masters and on what basis are they "hidden masters" and who made them such.

    It doesn't need much.
    Well, the basic standards in the Druze faith are that a master / lodge grandmaster doesn't associate with a wife or family members after he is indulged in higher ranks/degrees. He also doesn't seek to marry women or get concubines. Moreover, he should hold a sword only in self defence and never lead an army or a conquest. So Mohammad and Ali automatically do not qualify. There's also offensive parts about Mohammad, Omar and Ali within Islamic history that I rather not mention here and which play a part here. But you can do your own research and find them out.

    The theology about "hidden masters" is also found among freemasonry and other unitarian doctrines. Every faith has a theological reading and model which determines their masters in historic cycles. For instance, Alewites and Druze have similarities and differences in this regard but Alewites follow a trinity model known as Ali - Mohammad - Salman which also had reincarnated in previous historic cycles with five orphans (or masters but come secondary to the trinity). Druze put the five masters before the prophets of the main stream religions (if those prophets themselves are not among the masters). For instance, Jesus as a Master (the universal mind bound) and Matthew and a few other disciples are "hidden masters". But Druze do not give that status to Peter. We interpret Jesus describing him as the Rock to reflect his stubborn personality rather than to describe him as the foundation of the church. Etc.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    So you guys aren't Muslims at all and you have been lying to us all along in Lebanon, to the extent that you take a share of the quota reserved for Muslims in parliament and in govt. Isn't time for Muslims to disown you?
    Well, it's part of Taqiyah to outsiders. If you want to be accurate, Lebanon should recognize freemasonry and list Druze under them.
     
    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

    ܐܵܠܘܼܟ̰ܵܐ

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    Also in the Druze faith, Al-Hakem (and his other appearances) is higher than the Masters and above precepts of good and evil. It's similar to the Ismaili / Assassin belief in Imam al-Ma3soom. The most important letter in this regard is Hamza's "كشف الحقائق".
     
    G

    Grapes of Wrath

    New Member
    In general, very good people the Druze. Quite secretive and I'm not sure if many of them know exactly about their own religion.

    This might be interesting to some. The guy at the end explains a bit about the Druze culture/religion.

     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    Why did you consider them Muslims to begin with when not a single Druze ever went to Hajj - 1 of 5 pillars of Islam?
    Going to hajj isn't obligatory except one can afford. The is an optional part to it. It depends on one's ability to do it. And you really can't say no druze have been to hajj ever. It might just not be very popular practice among them.

    And our Druze Forum Mufti, or Sheikh Aqel of the forum should reply to this question

    Why do we see the Druze Sheikh every time praying the Muslim way on dead Druze figures? They conduct Islamic funerals, even the Sunni way. Not the Shia way, knowing that they're are a Shia Ismaili offshoot.

    Why do they conduct Islamic burial rites. And why the Sunni way to be precise? Is it also a political statement? Is it taqiyyah? Or is it a case of lost identity and having no better option to bury the dead of the druze?

    One more question:

    Do druze people bury their corpses in Muslim cemeteries?
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    Well, the basic standards in the Druze faith are that a master / lodge grandmaster doesn't associate with a wife or family members after he is indulged in higher ranks/degrees. He also doesn't seek to marry women or get concubines. Moreover, he should hold a sword only in self defence and never lead an army or a conquest. So Mohammad and Ali automatically do not qualify. There's also offensive parts about Mohammad, Omar and Ali within Islamic history that I rather not mention here and which play a part here. But you can do your own research and find them out.

    The theology about "hidden masters" is also found among freemasonry and other unitarian doctrines. Every faith has a theological reading and model which determines their masters in historic cycles. For instance, Alewites and Druze have similarities and differences in this regard but Alewites follow a trinity model known as Ali - Mohammad - Salman which also had reincarnated in previous historic cycles with five orphans (or masters but come secondary to the trinity). Druze put the five masters before the prophets of the main stream religions (if those prophets themselves are not among the masters). For instance, Jesus as a Master (the universal mind bound) and Matthew and a few other disciples are "hidden masters". But Druze do not give that status to Peter. We interpret Jesus describing him as the Rock to reflect his stubborn personality rather than to describe him as the foundation of the church. Etc.
    The offensive parts about the Prophet and Imam Ali won't be more than the fabrications found in some weakened hadiths. I'd rather not go into them and let's focus on your faith. I dont think you have answered my question. What are the virtues that your masters must possess that others don't. Dont tell me others are evil. Tell me the goodness in your so called masters that made them worthy of emulation as spiritual and divine teachers. And tell us who elevated them or appointed them to that position. And what is the significance of their position. Do they prophesy? Did they write any revelations? Why should you believe in their teachings, practices and words? What made them out of the ordinary?
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    That's very false. There are different readings and groups in the Druze faith. But they agree on the fundamentals. The Dawah was closed early on, so the faith didn't evolve or change with new adherrrents like other faiths. The main problem with the Druze faith is that the corpus itself is not very complete and so different Sheikhs can have different opinions on things. But if I go to Israel or Syria and talk with Druze privately, they share all my beliefs and at best would just debate particulars.
    What are these fundamentals of the druze faith?

    And on what basis do they differ? And what are the beliefs and practices you disagree on amongst yourselves? And why do you think these differences do not qualify to place you into different sects?
     
    Lebmonage

    Lebmonage

    Legendary Member
    Also in the Druze faith, Al-Hakem (and his other appearances) is higher than the Masters and above precepts of good and evil. It's similar to the Ismaili / Assassin belief in Imam al-Ma3soom. The most important letter in this regard is Hamza's "كشف الحقائق".
    What gives you confidence in al-Hakem that he was "ma'soom"?
     
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