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Deep into Islam..

Genius

Genius

Legendary Member
historically speaking there is evidence that the Quran was subjected to a serious manipulation when it was first gathered. Ali's copy of the Quran was discarded in favor of another that was collected and written mainly at the request of abu bakr. even predating that event, in fact some scholars believe that some of the verses were lost after the battle of yamama during which many of the companions were killed. to note that the battle took place 10 years after prophet Muhammad had passed away. that battle was the motivation to put the Quran down in writing until then some of the Quran was memorized, some was written down on manuscripts. Zeid bin Thabet was chosen to the task. now to give the guy credit, he reluctantly took the job because he realized the depth of that responsibility, and to point out how fragile some of that work was i will quote from sahih el bukhary, as narrated by zaid bin thabet himself (and this also coincides with surat at-tawba mentioned earlier):

Volume 6, Book 61, Number 511: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started, searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him.


in addition, some companions claim that at least three revelations were left out, including one pointed out by Aisha, as narrated by hadith musllim. very delicate subject so i will skip over the details.

the compilation written by zaid bin thabet was then kept with abou bakr, then with umar, and after umar it went to his daughter Hafsa who was one of the prophet's wives. at a later stage, uthman ordered all individual copies of suras and verses of the quran to be burned after differences between the recitations began to surface, and he sent for this copy from Hafsa which was redistributed and became the official Quran. i am not sure if this is the copy that is still in circulation today, but i think it is.
Did you hear about the Sanaa Quran found in Yemen? It is claimed that there are some differences between the text and a previous erased text written underneath it ... As if some corrections and modifications were made.
Not sure where their research will lead ...

Funny how prophets, Jesus, Mohammed both came and left and none wrote anything ....
Wouldn't you think logically? since Dalzi is claiming the Quran is logical, that a prophet would logically write his holly perfect book and pass it along? instead of friends and disciples remembering the words of Allah and compiling it in a weird order hundreds years later ?? ,,,
 
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  • Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If you want to withdraw, please fell free. I am just asking questions.

    What about the rest of my questions ...

    AL maidah 5:17 christians are Kuffar
    They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

    5:51 Jews and Christians are allies !! l ok ... ??
    O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

    Then how is it ok for a najsa, impure Kafra to carry a muslim baby .... and sleep with a muslim man. She is Kafra, impure.

    How would she feel when in her house it is recited that she is a Kafra and going to hellfire?
    The OP wants this thread to be tackled point-by-point, and he started with Chapter 9. Whether Christians are kufar or not can be discussed later, don't ruin his thread.
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    So no other Muslims want to participate? Ma 2ele jlede to do the work all over again :( Where are my past posts to copy paste?

    Did you hear about the Sanaa Quran found in Yemen? It is claimed that there are some differences between the text and a previous erased text written underneath it ... As if some corrections and modifications were made.
    Not sure where their research will lead ...

    Funny how prophets, Jesus, Mohammed both came and left and none wrote anything ....
    Wouldn't you think logically? since Dalzi is claiming the Quran is logical, that a prophet would logically write his holly perfect book and pass it along? instead of friends and disciples remembering the words of Allah and compiling it in a weird order hundreds years later ?? ,,,
    looool Where was Imam Ali? Hiding under the ground? Who told you the Prophet 'left without writing anything?' Imam Ali wrote down every single verse from day one of the revelation. Hai2tak Sunni.
     
    Weezy

    Weezy

    Well-Known Member
    So no other Muslims want to participate? Ma 2ele jlede to do the work all over again :( Where are my past posts to copy paste?
    mafi din ba3d l shia remember lol you're the only muslim here
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    So no other Muslims want to participate? Ma 2ele jlede to do the work all over again :( Where are my past posts to copy paste?


    looool Where was Imam Ali? Hiding under the ground? Who told you the Prophet 'left without writing anything?' Imam Ali wrote down every single verse from day one of the revelation. Hai2tak Sunni.
    mneeh ma elak jledeh ... cause i have so many questions .... really dumb as i am.

    I still want to hear if the christians are kuffar or not ... and why the ayya says they are kuffar ... and then no .. then yes .. then no .. then yes ...
    dont take them as friends ... but eat their food and marry their women ... hmmmm

    or really whatever suited mohammed ... he made up the story accordingly .? I thought the book was soooo clear ...
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The Qur'an has been debated till death on this forum, what happened to the previous discussions?
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    mneeh ma elak jledeh ... cause i have so many questions .... really dumb as i am.

    I still want to hear if the christians are kuffar or not ... and why the ayya says they are kuffar ... and then no .. then yes .. then no .. then yes ...
    dont take them as friends ... but eat their food and marry their women ... hmmmm

    or really whatever suited mohammed ... he made up the story accordingly .? I thought the book was soooo clear ...
    Wow you even picked up on the Sunni translated version here :biggrin: It's 'woulat' not friends lol Sunnis translate it 'friends' coz the Prophet used Wali to describe Ali. They don't want to admit his right to religious leadership, and so Wali has become 'friend' everywhere. []
     
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    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    mafi din ba3d l shia remember lol you're the only muslim here
    No that's not what I meant. We keep it standing, The Strong Foundation is us and without this strong foundation, Islam will suffer and eventually perish. It's already usurped by terrorists and Israeli agents; bleeding hard!

    Why not add your name to the list here for participation? 7eje 3emel 3laina sheikh elsewhere.
     
    JB81

    JB81

    Legendary Member
    Had more than one person made the Qur'an, you would've had more than one Qur'an or at least many versions of it (as is the case with the Bible). Some takfiri Sunnis accuse the Shia of having another book called "The Book of Fatima" because they are brainwahsed into the belief that the Qur'an was brought together by 'sayyedhon', dismissing the fact that 'sayyedna' was the first Muslim and the first Pupil the Prophet had. Had the 'companions' made the Qur'an, the Shiaa would've had a different Qur'an to the Sunnis.

    There is no contradiction in the Qur'an, and we will get to that. The contradiction exists between the Qur'an and the Hadith, not between Qur'anic verses. Qur'anic chapters tell 'stories' with historical significance and for educational purposes. Taking verses out of context is heresy and it's something God warns against and threatens with eternal damnation in the book itself (we will get to that also).


    What makes the NT accepted but the OT rejected? Do you deny the messengers before you? You don't, so you can't deny their message. If you want to fault the OT, then there is no reason why you don't fault the NT, especially considering the fact that the NT is attached to the OT and it draws back with reference to it. However, this is not the topic, so we'll stick to the topic :)
    By the time of Khalifa Outhman, there were over 100 quraan. He ordered to burn all of them and kept the one we knew today....

    In contrary, the Quraan is contradictory, you can't have both merciful God in one verse and the second verse Allah gives justification for killing those who disobey him... He is either merciful and he alone judges everyone, or he's not merciful and He lets his followers to punish people.

    The OT is not rejected...Christians, unlike Muslims, believe in the Torah as it is.... Stories of Isaac the son of Abraham being the anointed son and not Ishmael.... Most stories in the OT are different in content and message than that of the Quraan.... There are violent stories and massacres that happened in the name of God... it is these stories that Christians interpret it differently and denies that God have any involvement in it. Unlike Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that the bible is written by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit... there are a human element in the bible and these men wrote these stories according to their understandings....For instance, there are messages behind these stories as if wars are won, it means that God is happy with the Jews and if the war is lost, it is interpreted as a punishment from God for Jews disobedience.
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    By the time of Khalifa Outhman, there were over 100 quraan. He ordered to burn all of them and kept the one we knew today....

    In contrary, the Quraan is contradictory, you can't have both merciful God in one verse and the second verse Allah gives justification for killing those who disobey him... He is either merciful and he alone judges everyone, or he's not merciful and He lets his followers to punish people.

    The OT is not rejected...Christians, unlike Muslims, believe in the Torah as it is.... Stories of Isaac the son of Abraham being the anointed son and not Ishmael.... Most stories in the OT are different in content and message than that of the Quraan.... There are violent stories and massacres that happened in the name of God... it is these stories that Christians interpret it differently and denies that God have any involvement in it. Unlike Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that the bible is written by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit... there are a human element in the bible and these men wrote these stories according to their understandings....For instance, there are messages behind these stories as if wars are won, it means that God is happy with the Jews and if the war is lost, it is interpreted as a punishment from God for Jews disobedience.
    The OT records many events where God orders killing. See Numbers 31 for example.
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    By the time of Khalifa Outhman, there were over 100 quraan. He ordered to burn all of them and kept the one we knew today....
    Abou Baker Othman etc are the 'saviours' of Islam lol What happened to Ahl Albait? Where does Imam Ali fit in all this? You still don't want to understand is that I'm not Sunni. Shiism doesn't follow this bull or give any credit to these men after Muhammad's death.

    In contrary, the Quraan is contradictory, you can't have both merciful God in one verse and the second verse Allah gives justification for killing those who disobey him... He is either merciful and he alone judges everyone, or he's not merciful and He lets his followers to punish people.

    The OT is not rejected...Christians, unlike Muslims, believe in the Torah as it is.... Stories of Isaac the son of Abraham being the anointed son and not Ishmael.... Most stories in the OT are different in content and message than that of the Quraan.... There are violent stories and massacres that happened in the name of God... it is these stories that Christians interpret it differently and denies that God have any involvement in it. Unlike Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that the bible is written by holy men inspired by the Holy Spirit... there are a human element in the bible and these men wrote these stories according to their understandings....For instance, there are messages behind these stories as if wars are won, it means that God is happy with the Jews and if the war is lost, it is interpreted as a punishment from God for Jews disobedience.
    No contradiction at all. God is merciful but his punishment is severe towards evil. That's Biblical too.

    We do believe there's truth in the Bible of today. Many Christians reject the OT because they don't know how to justify it, strangely though while its connected to the NT which cannot exist without it. It draws reference onto it.

    What people believe is not the point. The books are there and we can all read both. Why would I choose the Bible as a book of God, but the Qur'an not? lol

    How about we change this thread topic, to make it fair, and compare the books from a literary and contextual perspective? That would be fun...
     
    JB81

    JB81

    Legendary Member
    The OT records many events where God orders killing. See Numbers 31 for example.
    True.... but these stories are wriiten 100s of years after the events...there are human elements in it, the men who wrote the bible included their own understanding to it.... Therefor, for Christians. God would never order such acts, and what is written in the OT is to be taken by its overall message than the authenticity of the stories..
     
    Dalzi

    Dalzi

    Legendary Member
    True.... but these stories are wriiten 100s of years after the events...there are human elements in it, the men who wrote the bible included their own understanding to it.... Therefor, for Christians. God would never order such acts, and what is written in the OT is to be taken by its overall message than the authenticity of the stories..
    This is true. That's what we mean when we say the Torah and the Bible are from God, but they have been corrupted by humans.
     
    Robin Hood

    Robin Hood

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    True.... but these stories are wriiten 100s of years after the events...there are human elements in it, the men who wrote the bible included their own understanding to it.... Therefor, for Christians. God would never order such acts, and what is written in the OT is to be taken by its overall message than the authenticity of the stories..
    So the OT is not inspired because it could be errant? God won't inspire people to write something errant, don't you think?
     
    JB81

    JB81

    Legendary Member
    This is true. That's what we mean when we say the Torah and the Bible are from God, but they have been corrupted by humans.
    God's words could never be corrupted... Are you saying that God who holds the Universe could not hold his own Words? This is my God " Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.Mark 13:31.

    The bible, the Old and the New Testaments are all written by men. The human element is not corruption but it is part of the process of a God-man relation.... It is the direct message or inzal that is weird and new concept.
     
    JB81

    JB81

    Legendary Member
    So the OT is not inspired because it could be errant? God won't inspire people to write something errant, don't you think?
    It is the human element and the way they saw things... It is like history books and the writer wrote what he saw and understood... The bible is very accurate when it comes to historical sites and battles.

    Again, for Christian and Jews, the bible is stories written by men... Abraham stories did not come in a gift box from heaven.... it is a story that was passed by one generation to other until it was written by these men... It is believed that most of the OT was written in Babylon around 600 BC.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Abou Baker Othman etc are the 'saviours' of Islam lol What happened to Ahl Albait? Where does Imam Ali fit in all this? You still don't want to understand is that I'm not Sunni. Shiism doesn't follow this bull or give any credit to these men after Muhammad's death.

    No contradiction at all. God is merciful but his punishment is severe towards evil. That's Biblical too.

    We do believe there's truth in the Bible of today. Many Christians reject the OT because they don't know how to justify it, strangely though while its connected to the NT which cannot exist without it. It draws reference onto it.

    What people believe is not the point. The books are there and we can all read both. Why would I choose the Bible as a book of God, but the Qur'an not? lol

    How about we change this thread topic, to make it fair, and compare the books from a literary and contextual perspective? That would be fun...
    So let me see if i got this correctly, you are aware that the Quran has been manipulated by the folks who assembled it, and that there is a different copy that was collected by imam ali and later put in the care of ahl el beit, while at the same time beholding the current copy of the text as the unquestionable word of God?
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If divine, holy people spent half as much time being peaceful and "good" as they do claiming that they are peaceful and "good", the world would be a much better place.
     
    Weezy

    Weezy

    Well-Known Member
    So let me see if i got this correctly, you are aware that the Quran has been manipulated by the folks who assembled it, and that there is a different copy that was collected by imam ali and later put in the care of ahl el beit, while at the same time beholding the current copy of the text as the unquestionable word of God?
    This isn't true, the Quran was never manipulated. Caliph Othman decided to assemble the Quran in a single book after many of those who had the Quran memorized got killed in battle. There was no dispute in this process. And the biggest proof for all this is that today after 1400 years we only have a single version of the Quran despite the many many many sects that have emerged.


    إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Abou Baker Othman etc are the 'saviours' of Islam lol What happened to Ahl Albait? Where does Imam Ali fit in all this? You still don't want to understand is that I'm not Sunni. Shiism doesn't follow this bull or give any credit to these men after Muhammad's death.


    No contradiction at all. God is merciful but his punishment is severe towards evil. That's Biblical too.

    We do believe there's truth in the Bible of today. Many Christians reject the OT because they don't know how to justify it, strangely though while its connected to the NT which cannot exist without it. It draws reference onto it.

    What people believe is not the point. The books are there and we can all read both. Why would I choose the Bible as a book of God, but the Qur'an not? lol

    How about we change this thread topic, to make it fair, and compare the books from a literary and contextual perspective? That would be fun...
    so which Koran do you follow today?
    the one pure by imam Ali (acording to you) or the one corrupt by the bad sahaba ?? and put together by Utham ??

    you are contradicting yourself ....
     
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