Deep into Islam..

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  • NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    My 2 cents:

    Islam today is going through the same crisis that Christianity went through one thousand years ago; i.e. Too many people taking it too seriously. Once enough Muslims realize that they are wasting their lives, time, and energy on imaginary beings, they will enter a golden era very similar to that of the Rennaisance. But that will happen in another 400 years.
    This post assumes Islam is like Christianity. The latter is just a “feel-good” religion. It has no mechanisms inherent in it that would have allowed it to last longer than it did. Why else has it failed so miserably in Europe and the Middle East?

    Effort is not expected from Christianity. It is from Islam- why else is it mandatory to pray 5 times a day? And without applying any form of effort, you can’t expect any progress!
     
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    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

    Paragon of Bacon
    Orange Room Supporter
    This post assumes Islam is like Christianity. The latter is just a “feel-good” religion. It has no mechanisms inherent in it that would have allowed it to last longer than it did. Why else has it failed so miserably in Europe and the Middle East?

    Effort is not expected from Christianity. It is from Islam- why else is it mandatory to pray 5 times a day? And without applying any form of effort, you can’t expect any progress!
    does islam require metaphysical effort though?
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    This lady is from an Alawite background. In other words, they are not religious and they are not under sharia law. They're similar to the Druze. Yet, she has turned her opposition to sharia and Islam into a trade. She's cashing on it. They're not religious and not affected by Islamic laws at all, some would contend they're not Muslims. But for sure they're not mainstream Muslim. Her background tells on her knowledge of Islam. She is very superficial. She's basically forcing herself into a place she doesnt even belong to because she's Syrian and can speak Arabic.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    This lady is from an Alawite background. In other words, they are not religious and they are not under sharia law. They're similar to the Druze. Yet, she has turned her opposition to sharia and Islam into a trade. She's cashing on it. They're not religious and not affected by Islamic laws at all, some would contend they're not Muslims. But for sure they're not mainstream Muslim. Her background tells on her knowledge of Islam. She is very superficial. She's basically forcing herself into a place she doesnt even belong to because she's Syrian and can speak Arabic.
    OK but is she saying something wrong? do you have any proof she is cashing on it?

     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    OK but is she saying something wrong? do you have any proof she is cashing on it?

    There is not one truth she is saying in all her opinions and all what she is saying.

    If you can invite her to this forum, I would love to debate with her directly.

    If you bring a video with many claims, you can find videos or articles refuting her.

    If you want me to discuss whatever point, including the ones she mentioned, list the points or state what you want me to clarify or what you want to discuss with me. I will reply to you. You can even mention the points she stated. I am here to discuss with you. Not to discuss what someone who's not here is claiming while you act as neutral, except if you are ready to bring here for me to debate with her.

    We can start from her first point about women in Islam and on the marriage if Aisha and how old she was. Hint: she was NEVER 6 or 9 years old when the Prophet married her.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    There is not one truth she is saying in all her opinions and all what she is saying.

    If you can invite her to this forum, I would love to debate with her directly.

    If you bring a video with many claims, you can find videos or articles refuting her.

    If you want me to discuss whatever point, including the ones she mentioned, list the points or state what you want me to clarify or what you want to discuss with me. I will reply to you. You can even mention the points she stated. I am here to discuss with you. Not to discuss what someone who's not here is claiming while you act as neutral, except if you are ready to bring here for me to debate with her.

    We can start from her first point about women in Islam and on the marriage if Aisha and how old she was. Hint: she was NEVER 6 or 9 years old when the Prophet married her.
    The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    There is not one truth she is saying in all her opinions and all what she is saying.

    If you can invite her to this forum, I would love to debate with her directly.

    If you bring a video with many claims, you can find videos or articles refuting her.

    If you want me to discuss whatever point, including the ones she mentioned, list the points or state what you want me to clarify or what you want to discuss with me. I will reply to you. You can even mention the points she stated. I am here to discuss with you. Not to discuss what someone who's not here is claiming while you act as neutral, except if you are ready to bring here for me to debate with her.

    We can start from her first point about women in Islam and on the marriage if Aisha and how old she was. Hint: she was NEVER 6 or 9 years old when the Prophet married her.
    And oh I would have loved to invite Wafa sultan to this forum to debate with you.....
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine
    Are you aware that all societies at that time married their sons and daughters at a young age? For example, the general age of consent in 1700 America was around 10.

    The concept of childhood itself was invented during the Enlightenment....
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    Are you aware that all societies at that time married their sons and daughters at a young age? For example, the general age of consent in 1700 America was around 10.

    The concept of childhood itself was invented during the Enlightenment....
    ok since u keep coming and replying..

    first of all I am. sure u haven't even watched the YouTube thingy

    second of all the islamic shari3a is based on Muhammad s life.... so the shari3a still allows this kind of marriage... as far as i know... i might be wrong
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    ok since u keep coming and replying..

    first of all I am. sure u haven't even watched the YouTube thingy

    second of all the islamic shari3a is based on Muhammad s life.... so the shari3a still allows this kind of marriage... as far as i know... i might be wrong
    Yes, it’s allowed. It may not work well in modern societies where women are raised to believe they’re better than men, but it’s certainly still allowed.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    Yes, it’s allowed. It may not work well in modern societies where women are raised to believe they’re better than men, but it’s certainly still allowed.
    Needless to say that everyone on this forum agrees that your statement is so retarded!
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine
    That is not true. The traditions that claim she was 6 or 8, all go back to one source: Aisha herself. All the remaining traditions and historical materials all disprove that attempt to babysize Aisha, irrespective of the fact that the age of consent was low back then; but in this particular case, she was not what she claimed to be (if we are to presume the narration citing her as the source for the claim is genuine and was not fabricated by the Umayyads or laterwards). I will present you with the facts my my subsequent posts. I didn't respond on time because I'm tired of this boring topic, honestly.
     
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    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    @Orangina

    Abubakr (A'isha's father) had Asma as his first child who was born 27years before Hijra. Aisha was the last born and history had it she was 10years younger to her eldest sister, Asma.

    Asma died at the age of 100 years in the 73rd year of Hijra. Meaning she was truly 27+years in the 1st year of Hijra. Same History however had it A'isha married the Prophet in the 2nd year of Hijra.

    If Asma was 27years in the 1st year of Hijra, and was 10years older than Aisha and then A'isha got married to the holy prophet in the 2nd year of Hijra, how old was A'isha?

    18- 19years.

    +++++++++++++

    The popular version of ‘Ãisha’s youth age has been exploited by the anti-Islamic groups to attack the Prophet “for marrying a child”. The fact of the matter is that Lady ‘Ãisha was not a child when she was married in 2 AH to the Prophet. At-Tabari, the famous Muslim historian, writes that Abu Bakr’s first two wives and their children were all born in the pre-Islamic era. (Ta’rīkh at-Tabari, vol. 2 [Beirut: al-A‘lami, n.d.] p. 616.) Based on this, even if she was born a year before the commencement of Islam, ‘Ãisha would be 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage to the Prophet – an age in which marriage is common in most cultures. Ibn Kathīr, in his al-Bidãyah wa ’n-Nihãyah (vol. 8, p. 381) states that Asmã’ bint Abu Bakr, the sister of ‘Ãisha, was ten years older than ‘Ãisha. He also reports that Asmã’ died in the year 73 AH at the age of 100. Based on this calculation, ‘Ãisha was 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    @Orangina

    When did Aisha convert to Islam? See link below for references. If she had converted when she was at 7 years old (two years before a girl's puberty or what is referred to as taklif or the least age of maturity upon which a girl becomes religiously obligated) , in the first year of the Prophet's mission or 13 years before hijrah, and she then married the Prophet in the second century hijrah, Aisha's age was :

    7+13+2 = 22 years old.

    According to another historical source, she was married to the Prophet in the 4th year after hijrah.

    7 + 13 + 4 = 24 years old.

    7 years at the time of conversation we assume was age least age.

    The Prophet spent 13 years in Makkah preaching before the Hijrah to Medina.

    The Prophet wedded Aisha either the second or fourth year after the hijrah.

    For more details and historical references, see source:

     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    @Orangina

    If Aisha was really "underage" based on modern standards, I wont be insulted. After all, early marriages were common place in the past. Mary (as), the mother of Jesus was reported to have been betrothed to Josseph the carpenter a 90 year old man, when she was just 12 years old. But based on historical facts, Aisha was not "underage" even by modern standards. Aisha had already been given in marriage to another man called Jubayr Ibb Mut'em before her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad (s). But many dont know the facts. I am more offended by the misrepresentation of facts, which is exploited, than by what was her age. In fact, even the word "pedophilia" or "pediphile" came into use less than 100 years ago. If you open any dictionary before 100 years ago, that word is not found. It did not exist.

    The reasons Sunnis, mostly, cling on to those narrations with an isolated source that portrays Aisha as very tender when the Prophet married her are for two:
    1. To whitewash her image after her atrocities in the battle of jamal against Imam Ali and Shia hatred for her.

    2. To portray her as the favourite wife of the Prophet, and an authority in Islam therefore, even though she had admitted Sayyida Khadija, who is very much revered by Shia, to have been the wife most honoured by the Prophet even after her death, Sunnis portray her as the favourite wife.

    I will leave you with this short lecture on this in two parts:


     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    @Rafidi

    You know I am not really concerned about at which age Aisha got married....It could be 3...It could be 6...It could be 15 or 60....I Will not discuss something that happened thousands of years ago

    but the point is that Sharia states (in some countries) that the legal age for marriage is 13 for girls and 15 for boys, but marriages can still be carried out at a younger age with the consent of fathers and permission from court judges.

    This has enabled a culture whereby child marriage is considered somewhat socially acceptable.

    I mean a girl can be married (according to shari3a) at a very low age with the consent of her father.

    You know that some poor families marry off their daughters in exchange of money or house or anything else...and this is still accepted by Islamic sharia.

    This is what I don't understand really....
     
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