Deep into Islam..

NewLeb

NewLeb

New Member
I was referring to Ataturk's kemalism which is based on the western values of democracy and secularism. These ideas took hold of Turkey, a "muslim land", though it has taken steps back in recent years.

If Allah wasn't taken seriously in Turkey, it wouldn't be a "muslim land" anymore, would it?
Difference is that those ideas that you are referring to were not simply replaced carte blanche with Islam. Attaturk simply found an ingenuous way for Western politico-philosophical concepts to coexist in a system where Islam remained the bedrock of Turkish society.

Muslim governments during the medieval times/Islamic golden age operated in the same fashion. The Arabs, given their geographical domination of the Middle East, were able to borrow from both the East and West and create a civilization that allowed them to reap the benefits of worldly gain and influence, but still retain their celestial roots.

This is very unlike the Christian West (especially Europe), where the original bedrock of civilization- Christianity- had to be competed demolished of, and replaced with an entirely new paradigm- that of Reason.
 
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  • NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    it takes 4 years to get a bachelor degree in theology. yet it seems to require several lifetimes for some people to develop a correct perception of the matters being discussed here. this is precisely why entrance exams to universities should never be cancelled or substituted with anything else.
    Your “theology” degrees will be completely useless on Judgement Day. Take heed!
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Your “theology” degrees will be completely useless on Judgement Day. Take heed!
    you first need to develop a correct perception of theology, something that you seemingly are incapable of, for a multitude of reasons. despite the fact that it does not take much of an effort. in particular given the time that you dedicate to topics. now if some of the people who have been living in Lebanon for generations, have such a wrong perception of other faiths, what is left for the people in places like afghanistan, pakistan, saudi arabia and yemen?

    so in reality, this is the most interesting revelation in all of these threads.
     
    L

    Lemon

    Well-Known Member
    Difference is that those ideas that you are referring to were not simply replaced carte blanche with Islam. Attaturk simply found an ingenuous way for Western politico-philosophical concepts to coexist in a system where Islam remained the bedrock of Turkish society.
    Islam went into hibernation for a while. That's what religions tend to do. Just like Eastern Orthodox religion went into hiding during the Soviet Union, only to come out after communism fell. But nobody would say that this religion was the "bedrock of Soviet Russia". Same with Turkey until recently: the bedrock of society was in nationalism and western ideas, not in religion. And it served Turkey well.

    Muslim governments during the medieval times/Islamic golden age operated in the same fashion. The Arabs, given their geographical domination of the Middle East, were able to borrow from both the East and West and create a civilization that allowed them to reap the benefits of worldly gain and influence, but still retain their celestial roots.

    This is very unlike the Christian West (especially Europe), where the original bedrock of civilization- Christianity- had to be competed demolished of, and replaced with an entirely new paradigm- that of Reason.
    It's not Christianity, it's religion. Islam is woven from the same cloth. Only reason intellectualism flourished in the early Islamic golden age was that Islam had not yet strangled all free thought. And by the way, Christianity has not been completely demolished... only pushed aside and made compliant. Same will happen to Islam.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    This pandering to Islamists is insane. It's worse than kneeling for Black Lives Matter.
    Does Naïm Kassem cover his eyes when he goes out so that he doesn't see unveiled women?


     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member
    Is that why the Qur’an mostly involves content that instructs people how to avoid hell???

    As for your other point, here’s the thing: If a Christian saw a man walk on water, that would considerably shake up his faith of Jesus being Divine.

    However, many Sufi/Muslim saints have achieved the scientific art of walking on water. I myself hope to a have attained such a feat in a few years- or less.

    Unlike Christians however, Muslims know that all power comes from Allah alone, so there’s never a danger of falling into a blasphemous state where we assert that a man is God himself, which is what Christians did with Jesus!
    Jesus was teaching discipples to walk on water and many of his disciples walked on water.. Jesus aim is to make us be perfect and the Father in heaven is perfect....
    Suffis walked on water? hahaha.....
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Jesus was teaching discipples to walk on water and many of his disciples walked on water.. Jesus aim is to make us be perfect and the Father in heaven is perfect....
    Suffis walked on water? hahaha.....
    :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member
    Gospel of Matthew (c. 80–90 CE)
    22 And straightway he constrained the disciples to enter into the boat, and to go before him unto the other side, till he should send the multitudes away. 23 And after he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into the mountain apart to pray: and when even was come, he was there alone. 24 But the boat was now in the midst of the sea, distressed by the waves; for the wind was contrary. 25 And in the fourth watch of the night he came unto them, walking upon the sea. 26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a ghost; and they cried out for fear. 27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid. 28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee upon the waters. 29 And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and took hold of him, and saith unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? 32 And when they were gone up into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And they that were in the boat worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. 34 And when they had crossed over, they came to the land, unto Gennesaret.
    — Matthew 14:22–34 American Standard Version
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    bi sharafak khalik bi sheghlak...enta heik w ana heik.
    share your Christian references. otherwise you are just inventing, like our friends here do around the clock. which wouldn't be the first time.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Jesus was teaching discipples to walk on water and many of his disciples walked on water.. Jesus aim is to make us be perfect and the Father in heaven is perfect....
    Suffis walked on water? hahaha.....
    Nobody walked on water, except the drunks. 7attet 3an baghltak.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    Jesus was teaching discipples to walk on water and many of his disciples walked on water.. Jesus aim is to make us be perfect and the Father in heaven is perfect....
    Suffis walked on water? hahaha.....
    Yeah, well, humans aren’t perfect, and never will be.

    And where is this evidence of Jesus teaching people to walk on water? First time I’ve ever heard that!

    Also, yes, there have been many Sufi saints who have performed countless miracles, and they didn’t need to believe that Jesus died on a cross to do so...

    List of Sufi saints - Wikipedia
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    Islam went into hibernation for a while. That's what religions tend to do. Just like Eastern Orthodox religion went into hiding during the Soviet Union, only to come out after communism fell. But nobody would say that this religion was the "bedrock of Soviet Russia". Same with Turkey until recently: the bedrock of society was in nationalism and western ideas, not in religion. And it served Turkey well.
    I’ll admit that “bedrock of society” was maybe the wrong phrase to use. However, to differentiate between post-Enlightenment Europe and modern Turkey, God/Allah is still relevant in the latter. Divinity has been reduced to less than a fairy tale in the West, and this has had detrimental consequences for their society...


    It's not Christianity, it's religion. Islam is woven from the same cloth. Only reason intellectualism flourished in the early Islamic golden age was that Islam had not yet strangled all free thought. And by the way, Christianity has not been completely demolished... only pushed aside and made compliant. Same will happen to Islam.
    “Not yet strangled free thought...”

    But the Calips based their insistence on scientific/intellectual developments on Qur’anic commands.

    More so, the Caliphate was a secular role, and not a theological one like the pope. So yes, having religious-based governments like Iran may indeed stunt intellectual growth, but that doesn’t mean religion can’t be utilized in other ways for advancement....
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    According to a Hadith Qudsi (Sahih Bukhari), the Prophet narrates that Allah says “I am as my servant thinks of me.” This short statement can allow us to better understand the unique nature of Allah vis-à-vis human perception and worship, and how the very concept of Allah differs vastly from other monotheist and deistic traditions.

    We should remind our readers that one of Allah’s Names is The Reality. As far as we’re concerned, this Divine Attriubute alone dispels the ignorant notions of Allah being a personal deity of sorts, like the gods of Olympia; or like the other ego-based conceptions of the supernatural like the Christian Jesus, or Jewish Yahweh.

    Henceforth, Allah remains The Reality regardless of whether someone is a Christian or atheist, because everyone is always reflecting their own idiosyncratic perceptions of existence onto their outside physical world (and having those same perceptions reflect back). In other words, individuals and groups will believe whatever they believe in, and that essentially reflects (on multiple dimensional levels) on their own exterior reality. For instance, an atheist believes in no God, so they project a world where God is non-existent, and so that’s what they experience on multiple fronts in the form of life content.

    The difference in the Muslim’s situation is that he’s obligated to go straight to the Source, and ergo there is no projection of ego-based affirmations, but a reflection of only Allah and His Divine Attributes (the extent to which depends on certain factors). Ergo, a Muslim exists on the very premise of Reality! This is what Al- Ghazali relates to when he says that a Muslim’s mission is to reflect the Light of Allah on creation, for it’s only by disintegration of the ego that man can realize his true and real self, and that is the purity and light of his absolute spirit.

    Of course, this isn’t to say that individual Muslims and Muslim sects don’t project their own personal ideas of what the desired path ought to be, which is basically why Islam has branched out into various sects, the main ones being the Sunni and Shiite. Even then, the Sunni and Shiite, regardless of their own interpretations of what the true “Islamic path” should represent, still ultimately refer to the Absolute of all things (Allah).... albeit ego and a personal identity built on thought-patterns over a period of centuries can hinder the process.

    Of course, from a metaphysical perceptive at least, the conflict between Sunnis and Shiites (and perhaps between all other divergent groups that have ever clashed with each other in the history of mankind) can be characterized as being rooted in ego; in that both categories are projecting their own conclusions about “what is,” and this “what is” is essentially their own mental interpretations of historical material events! It has nothing to do with Reality itself, but that doesn’t stop people from clinging to their own mental conceptions of what true reality represents....
     
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