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Deep into Islam..

SAVO

Active Member
I think it would. Women are attracted to confidence, and there’s nothing that says confidence than someone who’s wholly comfortable with who they are. ;)


as long i can keep drinking alcohol , eat pork , i am fine ,.

one thing that disturb me a lot about islam is the allahuakbar guy at 5 am..can't you guys make a prayer call through whatsup to not disturb people ...
 

NewLeb

Member
as long i can keep drinking alcohol , eat pork , i am fine ,.

one thing that disturb me a lot about islam is the allahuakbar guy at 5 am..can't you guys make a prayer call through whatsup to not disturb people ...

Yes, the call to man’s Lord does indeed irk the disbelievers. Those who love this world more than the next are easily perturbed by the adhan’s reminder. I think it should be louder to piss you commies off. ;)
 

Totenkopf

New Member
So I am reading the Quran as I have time on my hands thanks to the pandemic and I am finding myself perplexed by many verses such as the ones below. Can anyone (muslim only please) provide the context for these verses? What is their purpose? This is 66:1-4

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ ۖ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (1) قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (2) وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ (3) إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ (4)

Thanks
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
So I am reading the Quran as I have time on my hands thanks to the pandemic and I am finding myself perplexed by many verses such as the ones below. Can anyone (muslim only please) provide the context for these verses? What is their purpose? This is 66:1-4

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ ۖ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (1) قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (2) وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ (3) إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ (4)

Thanks
It is a sensitive topic related to 7afsa (daughter of the second Calife Omar) and Aisha (daughter of the first Caliph Abu Bakr).
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
So I am reading the Quran as I have time on my hands thanks to the pandemic and I am finding myself perplexed by many verses such as the ones below. Can anyone (muslim only please) provide the context for these verses? What is their purpose? This is 66:1-4

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ ۖ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (1) قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (2) وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ (3) إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ (4)

Thanks

How bored must you be to read the Quran?
 

NewLeb

Member
So I am reading the Quran as I have time on my hands thanks to the pandemic and I am finding myself perplexed by many verses such as the ones below. Can anyone (muslim only please) provide the context for these verses? What is their purpose? This is 66:1-4

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ ۖ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (1) قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (2) وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ (3) إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ (4)

Thanks

There are several alleged incidents that may form the background of these verses, all of which are rooted in the envy expressed by the Prophet’s wives. In one scenario, A’isha and Hafsa express disapproval at who and in what context the Prophet spends time with:

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('A'isha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): 'Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you...

The Prophet acquiesced to his wives’ demands, even though what he was doing was lawful in the eyes of Allah. The purpose of the verses are a reminder that one shouldn’t try to appease people by acting contrary to personal desires that which are approved and accepted by God.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
It is a sensitive topic related to 7afsa (daughter of the second Calife Omar) and Aisha (daughter of the first Caliph Abu Bakr).

agnostic, first I want to thank you for replying to my question.
I am not sure I understand your reply, are you implying that Allah was helping the prophet play politics among his wives?

How bored must you be to read the Quran?
DQ, I ran out of interesting series on Netflix, so why not!

There are several alleged incidents that may form the background of these verses, all of which are rooted in the envy expressed by the Prophet’s wives. In one scenario, A’isha and Hafsa express disapproval at who and in what context the Prophet spends time with:

The Prophet acquiesced to his wives’ demands, even though what he was doing was lawful in the eyes of Allah. The purpose of the verses are a reminder that one shouldn’t try to appease people by acting contrary to personal desires that which are approved and accepted by God.

newleb, thank you for taking the time to reply.
I find your reply vague even though you are also implying the prophet had some issues with his wives and Allah came to his help? Why waste 4 verses on the problems of the prophet with his wives when only one verse can clearly state that one shouldn’t try to appease people by acting contrary to personal desires that which are approved and accepted by God.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
I am not sure I understand your reply, are you implying that Allah was helping the prophet play politics among his wives?
No. God helped the prophet to deal with some women schemes... As I told you it is a sensitive topic. If you understand Arabic there are plenty of youtube video that give interpretation of these verses.
 

My Moria Moon

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
No. God helped the prophet to deal with some women schemes... As I told you it is a sensitive topic. If you understand Arabic there are plenty of youtube video that give interpretation of these verses.

@agnostic , do you have Yassir al 7abib in mind when you mention this topic as sensitive?

 

NewLeb

Member
newleb, thank you for taking the time to reply.
I find your reply vague even though you are also implying the prophet had some issues with his wives and Allah came to his help? Why waste 4 verses on the problems of the prophet with his wives when only one verse can clearly state that one shouldn’t try to appease people by acting contrary to personal desires that which are approved and accepted by God.

Many of these verses were revealed spontaneously and in real time by a human, and this human was living an experience. Truth can be present in all experiences (regardless of how meek and insignificant the content may appear), for Truth is the only Reality, and the words of the Quran come from the very Source of Truth.

Further, the Quran is in the moment. It doesn’t exhibit the same linear and static rhythm that the Bible and Torah do. It has no beginning nor end, and it doesn’t operate like a “normal” book would. You’re expectations on its content will only be reflected back on you, which may explain why you are unsatisfied with the manner in how some of its verses were revealed.
 

My Moria Moon

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Indeed Yasser 5bith is a scum and a UK agent, whose fonds de commerce is to exploit every sensitive topic to incite clashes between the Shias and their Sunni brothers.
It seems his followers think he's a true representative of the genuine ahloul beit principles. I find him to be a professional viper, with a tongue that spouts sulfuric acid, yet with such eloquence it is captivating. By the way, he hates the guts of sayyid nasrallah.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
It seems his followers think he's a true representative of the genuine ahloul beit principles. I find him to be a professional viper, with a tongue that spouts sulfuric acid, yet with such eloquence it is captivating. By the way, he hates the guts of sayyid nasrallah.
I completely agree. Actually it is good that he shows he is against SHN. Therefore we can't associate SHN with the wrongdoings this 5abith.
 
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My Moria Moon

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Many of these verses were revealed spontaneously and in real time by a human, and this human was living an experience. Truth can be present in all experiences (regardless of how meek and insignificant the content may appear), for Truth is the only Reality, and the words of the Quran come from the very Source of Truth.

Further, the Quran is in the moment. It doesn’t exhibit the same linear and static rhythm that the Bible and Torah do. It has no beginning nor end, and it doesn’t operate like a “normal” book would. You’re expectations on its content will only be reflected back on you, which may explain why you are unsatisfied with the manner in how some of its verses were revealed.

Following your analysis, I now blame my old buddies, whom I spent so many joints and Tequilas Experiences with, for not writing down every revelation I had regarding the Cosmos, Life, Death and Reality. On second thought, I'm glad they didn't, else I'd be worried by now about so many "Qur'ans" I'd have to sign, not to mention the thousands bodyguards I'd have to employ only to keep my billion followers at a safe distance when I decide to spend a day off on the beach.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
No. God helped the prophet to deal with some women schemes... As I told you it is a sensitive topic. If you understand Arabic there are plenty of youtube video that give interpretation of these verses.

Thanks agnostic, I have a decent command of arabic and as such I will do some digging on my end.

Many of these verses were revealed spontaneously and in real time by a human, and this human was living an experience. Truth can be present in all experiences (regardless of how meek and insignificant the content may appear), for Truth is the only Reality, and the words of the Quran come from the very Source of Truth.

Further, the Quran is in the moment. It doesn’t exhibit the same linear and static rhythm that the Bible and Torah do. It has no beginning nor end, and it doesn’t operate like a “normal” book would. You’re expectations on its content will only be reflected back on you, which may explain why you are unsatisfied with the manner in how some of its verses were revealed.

Thank you newleb, I have a feeling the above will come in handy in understanding these verses.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
So last night I looked up the tafasir and found myself the answer. Reading these verses is like seeing a tiny tip of an iceberg, there's a whole lot going on in the background.

@NewLeb based on the above, as revelation happens in real time depending on the experience of the prophet, Gibreel basically works in the delivery department and is dispatched every time an intervention is needed.

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ ۖ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (1) قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ (2) وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ (3) إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ (4)

So the context for the first verse: 66-1
بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ٢٢ - الصفحة ٢٢٩

إن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) قسم الأيام بين نسائه فلما كان يوم حفصة قالت: يا رسول الله إن لي إلى أبي حاجة، فأذن لي أن أزوره، فأذن لها، فلما خرجت أرسل رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) إلى جاريته مارية القبطية، وكان قد أهداها له المقوقس فأدخلها بيت حفصة فوقع عليها فأتت حفصة فوجدت الباب مغلقا، فجلست عند الباب فخرج رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ووجهه يقطر عرقا، فقالت حفصة، إنما أذنت لي من أجل هذا، أدخلت أمتك بيتي ثم وقعت عليها في يومي وعلى فراشي، أما رأيت لي حرمة وحقا؟

The prophet divided his days among his women, he had several wives and female slaves. In the day of Hafsa (one of his wives), she requested to visit her father. He approved and she left. The prophet then called after his slave Maria the Copt (who he had received as a gift) and entered the house of Hafsa with her.

Hafsa returned and found her door closed so she sat in front of her house. The prophet came out and he was sweating (indicating he had hot sex with his slave) which naturally pissed off Hafsa. She of course reproached him ... is this why you allowed me to leave? on my day and in my bed?

فقال (صلى الله عليه وآله): أليس هي جاريتي قد أحل الله ذلك لي؟ اسكتي فهي حرام علي، ألتمس بذاك رضاك فلا تخبري بهذا امرأة منهن، وهو عندك أمانة، فلما خرج (صلى الله عليه وآله) قرعت حفصة الجدار الذي بينها وبين عايشة فقالت: ألا أبشرك أن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) قد حرم عليه أمته مارية، وقد أراحنا الله منها، وأخبرت عايشة بما رأت وكانتا متصادقتين متظاهرتين على سائر أزواجه، فنزلت: " يا أيها النبي لم تحرم " فطلق حفصة، و اعتزل سائر نسائه تسعة وعشرين يوما، وقعد في مشربة أم إبراهيم مارية حتى نزلت آية التخيير

So the prophet tried justifying himself since Maria is his slave and she is halal for him by Allah. Obviously, once a woman starts nagging, she will blow a man's brain out, then the man only wants to buy peace and goes "yes dear, just shut up, I'll do whatever you want". اسكتي فهي حرام علي This is where the prophet made his Slave unlawful unto him for sex. I guess he couldn't take her blabbering anymore!

Being that these women had nothing to do but gossip and since Hafsa and Aisha were good buddies as indicated above وكانتا متصادقتين متظاهرتين على سائر أزواجه, and lived next to each other قرعت حفصة الجدار الذي بينها وبين عايشة Hafsa did not keep this to herself as requested وهو عندك أمانة and she shared the "good news" with Aisha as they both hated Maria.

Allah disapproved of this prohibition and Gibreel delivered this verse:
1 O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

I suspect the prophet preferred his slave Maria وقعد في مشربة أم إبراهيم مارية and did not want to hold on his oath. Hafsa also really must've annoyed him so he divorced her فطلق حفصة and Allah gave him the power to dissolve his oaths in the 2nd verse.

2 Allah has decreed for you the dissolution of your oaths. Allah is your Master. He is the All-Knowing, the Most Wise.

قال: ولما حرم مارية القبطية أخبر حفصة أنه يملك من بعده أبو بكر ثم عمر، فعرفها بعض ما أفشت من الخبر، وأعرض عن بعض ان أبا بكر وعمر يملكان من بعدي، وقريب من ذلك ما رواه العياشي بالاسناد عن عبد الله بن عطاء المكي عن أبي جعفر إلا أنه زاد في ذلك: إن كل واحدة منهما حدثت أباها بذلك، فعاتبهما في أمر مارية وما أفشتا عليه من ذلك

So it appears that while the prophet was trying to calm Hafsa down, he also told her a secret which is that Abu Bakr (Aisha's Father) and Omar (Hafsa's father) were going to lead after his death.
إن كل واحدة منهما حدثت أباها بذلك، فعاتبهما في أمر مارية وما أفشتا عليه من ذلك
They obviously couldn't hold the secret and the verse #3 was delivered

3 And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."

I think the prophet knew what he was doing, he was experienced in managing multiple wives and slaves. Of course Hafsa was going to tell Aisha!
Clearly Hafsa and Aisha were banding together against the prophet and his other wives, they were causing him a headache and he needed to put them back in place. Allah once again comes to the rescue with verse #4

4 If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.

Basically he asked them to get back in line or else Allah+Gabriel+Believers+Angels will be on his side against them. That is some serious firepower vs 2 women if you ask me! They must've pissed him off big time!

@Drama Queen and you said the Quran was boring? Shame on you!

src:
 

Totenkopf

New Member
I've been going back to the story above and I am confused on some issues.
It is clear that Mohamad had female slaves, they were gifted to him like Maria or taken in war like Safiyah.

It is also clear that as female slaves, they are lawful for sex. Marriage is not required. 33:50
٠ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْك

وما ملكت يمينك } أي وأحللنا لك ما ملكت يمينك من الإماء { مما أفاء الله عليك } من الغنائم والأنفال
من الغنائم مارية القبطية أمّ ابنه إبراهيم ومن الأنفال صفية وجويرية

What happens if a female slave refuses to have sex with her owner? She will get raped.

Any muslim who owns a female slave can rape her at will. The prophet and his companions including Ali (his son in law) did exactly that after successful battles regardless if the woman was married or not.

However, a muslim owner is not encouraged to prostitute his slave according to the verse: 24:33

وَلْيَسْتَعْفِفِ الَّذِينَ لَا يَجِدُونَ نِكَاحًا حَتَّىٰ يُغْنِيَهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَالَّذِينَ يَبْتَغُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِمَّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ فَكَاتِبُوهُمْ إِنْ عَلِمْتُمْ فِيهِمْ خَيْرًا وَآتُوهُم مِّن مَّالِ اللَّهِ الَّذِي آتَاكُمْ وَلَا تُكْرِهُوا فَتَيَاتِكُمْ عَلَى الْبِغَاءِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَ تَحَصُّنًا لِّتَبْتَغُوا عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَمَن يُكْرِههُّنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِن بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيم

No we arrive at verse 4:24 which covers free muslim women.
وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

This is the famous mutaa verse!

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤

13 - تفسير علي بن إبراهيم: " فما استمتعتم به منهن " قال الصادق عليه السلام: " فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة " فهذه الآية دليل على المتعة (1).
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: لأنها مستأجره وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما (2).

This is where it gets exciting and confusing.
استمتعتم به منهن The word in red CLEARLY references a woman's vagina as you are renting the woman مستأجره for enjoyment in exchange for an ajr and for a defined period of time.

So a female slave cannot be prostituted, but can be raped. A free muslim woman can rent her vagina for a period of time in exchange of money.

Here's a silly question, in theory, a muslim man can enjoy a muslim woman's toes or breast and would not have to pay anything, correct?

A more serious question: What happens if a muslim man rapes a muslim woman? considering that this is offense is greater than adultery and fornication, where does the Quran lay out the punishment for rape?

Thanks in advance for your input.
 

NewLeb

Member
What happens if a female slave refuses to have sex with her owner? She will get raped.

Any muslim who owns a female slave can rape her at will. The prophet and his companions including Ali (his son in law) did exactly that after successful battles regardless if the woman was married or not.

She can’t really refuse sex (or anything for that matter), given that she’s a slave. Rape makes no sense in this context.

No we arrive at verse 4:24 which covers free muslim women.
وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

This is the famous mutaa verse!

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤

13 - تفسير علي بن إبراهيم: " فما استمتعتم به منهن " قال الصادق عليه السلام: " فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة " فهذه الآية دليل على المتعة (1).
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: (2).

How did you go from 4.24 to what it seems to be a particular brand of Shiite theological thought?

This is where it gets exciting and confusing.
استمتعتم به منهن The word in red CLEARLY references a woman's vagina as you are renting the woman مستأجره for enjoyment in exchange for an ajr and for a defined period of time.

So a female slave cannot be prostituted, but can be raped. A free muslim woman can rent her vagina for a period of time in exchange of money.

I’m not sure where you’re getting the above hogwash from. Here is verse 4:24 in multiple translations; I don’t see anything about Muslim women renting out their vaginas:

Sahih International: And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Pickthall: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

Yusuf Ali: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.


Here's a silly question, in theory, a muslim man can enjoy a muslim woman's toes or breast and would not have to pay anything, correct?

Cone on bro, women love being groped. They’ll often return the favor. ;)

A more serious question: What happens if a muslim man rapes a muslim woman? considering that this is offense is greater than adultery and fornication, where does the Quran lay out the punishment for rape?

Why is the offense “greater?”
 

Totenkopf

New Member
She can’t really refuse sex (or anything for that matter), given that she’s a slave. Rape makes no sense in this context.

My friend, we need to call things by their proper name.
Regardless of context, sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will is called Rape.

How did you go from 4.24 to what it seems to be a particular brand of Shiite theological thought?

I’m not sure where you’re getting the above hogwash from. Here is verse 4:24 in multiple translations; I don’t see anything about Muslim women renting out their vaginas:

Fortunately, we both read arabic very well, the verse cannot be clearer. I am glad you noticed that the translations are not accurate. In fact, they are sort of embellishing the verse to make it sound nicer.
In the sunni vs shia issues, you know I have no dog in this fight. The sunni scholars do not deny its meaning either:
تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القرآن/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

قال: والاستمتاع هو النكاح ههنا إذا دخل بها. وقال آخرون: بل معنى ذلك: فما تمتعتم به منهنّ بأجر تمتع اللذة، لا بنكاح مطلق على وجه النكاح الذي يكون بولىّ وشهود ومهر

It appears that this verse was abrogated based on the following:
قال عليّ رضي الله عنه: لولا أن عمر رضي الله عنه نهى عن المتعة ما زنى إلا شقّى
Only an idiot would commint zina if it wasn't for Omar's abrogation. (who the heck is omar to abrogate Allah's verses?)

But in Ibn Kathir we read the following:
وقد استدل بعموم هذه الآية على نكاح المتعة، ولا شك أنه كان مشروعاً في ابتداء الإسلام، ثم نسخ بعد ذلك
وقد ذهب الشافعي وطائفة من العلماء إلى أنه أبيح، ثم نسخ ثم أبيح ثم نسخ مرتين

أنه غزا مع رسول الله يوم فتح مكة، فقال " يا أيها الناس إني كنت أذنت لكم في الاستمتاع من النساء، وإن الله قد حرم ذلك إلى يوم القيامة، فمن كان عنده منهن شيء فليخل سبيله، ولا تأخذوا مما آتيتموهن شيئاً "

So here's the thing, I have come by verses in the Quran that were abrogated by other verses. No problem since the Quran is Allah's words, he is allowed to abrogate his own verses. If I missed the abrogation verse in the Quran, forgive me and I am happy to be corrected.
But it seems that this verse was abrogated OUTSIDE of the Quran, which means it is NOT Allah that abrogated it or else he would have done it in the Quran. So whether it is Omar or Muhamad who abrogated it, it does not stand, I do not accept mere humans going against the word of Allah.

So when the Shia say the woman is مستأجره ie rented for sex, it is not wrong, they are correct about it.
عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبد الله عليهما والسلام أنهما قالا: هو أن يزيدها في الاجرة وتزيده في الاجل
تفسير الميزان - السيد الطباطبائي - ج ٤ - الصفحة ٢٩٠

It's like calling a car rental and asking them to charge your credit card because you want to keep the car for 1 more day.

Cone on bro, women love being groped. They’ll often return the favor. ;)
Awesome, no temporary marriage required and no zina laws broken ;)

Why is the offense “greater?”
because in adultery and fornication, both parties consent to the act. When it comes to rape, the woman did not consent to commit an act of adultery or fornication, her will has not been respected as she is being violated by force. Hence the "greater" offence as it is an offence to Allah and against another human.

So where does the Quran lay out the punishment for rape?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Indeed Yasser 5bith is a scum and a UK agent, whose fonds de commerce is to exploit every sensitive topic to incite clashes between the Shias and their Sunni brothers.

Please stop.

I know SHN accused him of being an agent, possibly unaware even. But insulting him in this manner is wrong. Most or all of his preaching is in line with our faith. He just happens to be someone who dishes it out raw and removes the taqiyyah and sugar coating when dealing with Sunnis and their status of being victims of a distorted history who are resistant to historical scrutiny. Do not insult him.
 
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