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Deep into Islam..

Rafidi

Legendary Member
My friend, we need to call things by their proper name.
Regardless of context, sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will is called Rape.



Fortunately, we both read arabic very well, the verse cannot be clearer. I am glad you noticed that the translations are not accurate. In fact, they are sort of embellishing the verse to make it sound nicer.
In the sunni vs shia issues, you know I have no dog in this fight. The sunni scholars do not deny its meaning either:
تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القرآن/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

قال: والاستمتاع هو النكاح ههنا إذا دخل بها. وقال آخرون: بل معنى ذلك: فما تمتعتم به منهنّ بأجر تمتع اللذة، لا بنكاح مطلق على وجه النكاح الذي يكون بولىّ وشهود ومهر

It appears that this verse was abrogated based on the following:
قال عليّ رضي الله عنه: لولا أن عمر رضي الله عنه نهى عن المتعة ما زنى إلا شقّى
Only an idiot would commint zina if it wasn't for Omar's abrogation. (who the heck is omar to abrogate Allah's verses?)

But in Ibn Kathir we read the following:
وقد استدل بعموم هذه الآية على نكاح المتعة، ولا شك أنه كان مشروعاً في ابتداء الإسلام، ثم نسخ بعد ذلك
وقد ذهب الشافعي وطائفة من العلماء إلى أنه أبيح، ثم نسخ ثم أبيح ثم نسخ مرتين

أنه غزا مع رسول الله يوم فتح مكة، فقال " يا أيها الناس إني كنت أذنت لكم في الاستمتاع من النساء، وإن الله قد حرم ذلك إلى يوم القيامة، فمن كان عنده منهن شيء فليخل سبيله، ولا تأخذوا مما آتيتموهن شيئاً "

So here's the thing, I have come by verses in the Quran that were abrogated by other verses. No problem since the Quran is Allah's words, he is allowed to abrogate his own verses. If I missed the abrogation verse in the Quran, forgive me and I am happy to be corrected.
But it seems that this verse was abrogated OUTSIDE of the Quran, which means it is NOT Allah that abrogated it or else he would have done it in the Quran. So whether it is Omar or Muhamad who abrogated it, it does not stand, I do not accept mere humans going against the word of Allah.

So when the Shia say the woman is مستأجره ie rented for sex, it is not wrong, they are correct about it.
عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبد الله عليهما والسلام أنهما قالا: هو أن يزيدها في الاجرة وتزيده في الاجل
تفسير الميزان - السيد الطباطبائي - ج ٤ - الصفحة ٢٩٠

It's like calling a car rental and asking them to charge your credit card because you want to keep the car for 1 more day.


Awesome, no temporary marriage required and no zina laws broken ;)


because in adultery and fornication, both parties consent to the act. When it comes to rape, the woman did not consent to commit an act of adultery or fornication, her will has not been respected as she is being violated by force. Hence the "greater" offence as it is an offence to Allah and against another human.

So where does the Quran lay out the punishment for rape?

Can you point out where the Shia use the term "musta2jara" or rented in refer to a woman in a mut3ah marriage? This is the first time I've heard this word.

As per abrogation in the Quran, the verses are not contradictory. And within the course of time, any of the two - the abrogated or the abrogation - can still be applied depending on circumstances.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
@Rafidi

Yasser 5abith gloated for the assassination of Qassem Soleimani. Beside that what are his goals for (only) preaching insults towards Sunnis symbols. Teaching history is about stating facts in a rigorous methodology not about insulting a group of people (our Sunni brothers) and their religious symbols.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
@Rafidi

Yasser 5abith gloated for the assassination of Qassem Soleimani. Beside that what are his goals for (only) preaching insults towards Sunnis symbols. Teaching history is about stating facts in a rigorous methodology not about insulting a group of people (our Sunni brothers) and their religious symbols.

Can I see the video where he gloated.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Can you point out where the Shia use the term "musta2jara" or rented in refer to a woman in a mut3ah marriage? This is the first time I've heard this word.

With pleasure sir:

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: لأنها مستأجره وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما (2).


الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ٥ - الصفحة ٤٥١
5 - محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسين سعيد، ومحمد بن خالد البرقي، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد، عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) في المتعة قال: ليست من الأربع لأنها لا تطلق ولا ترث وإنما هي مستأجرة.

وسائل الشيعة (آل البيت) - الحر العاملي - ج ٢٦ - الصفحة ٢٣١
[32896] 4 - أحمد بن أبي عبد الله في (المحاسن) عن العباس بن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم لا تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟ فقال: لأنها مستأجرة وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما.

As per abrogation in the Quran, the verses are not contradictory. And within the course of time, any of the two - the abrogated or the abrogation - can still be applied depending on circumstances.

You misunderstood what I said. I accept Allah abrogating his own verses in the Quran. I do not accept abrogation of Allah's laws by humans like Omar or Ali or Muhammad OUTSIDE of the Quran.

Now maybe you can help me, is there a punishment specific to rape in the Quran? feel free to reread my last 2 posts that I had with NewLeb for context.

Thanks!
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
With pleasure sir:

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: لأنها مستأجره وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما (2).


الكافي - الشيخ الكليني - ج ٥ - الصفحة ٤٥١
5 - محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسين سعيد، ومحمد بن خالد البرقي، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد، عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) في المتعة قال: ليست من الأربع لأنها لا تطلق ولا ترث وإنما هي مستأجرة.

وسائل الشيعة (آل البيت) - الحر العاملي - ج ٢٦ - الصفحة ٢٣١
[32896] 4 - أحمد بن أبي عبد الله في (المحاسن) عن العباس بن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم لا تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟ فقال: لأنها مستأجرة وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما.



You misunderstood what I said. I accept Allah abrogating his own verses in the Quran. I do not accept abrogation of Allah's laws by humans like Omar or Ali or Muhammad OUTSIDE of the Quran.

Now maybe you can help me, is there a punishment specific to rape in the Quran? feel free to reread my last 2 posts that I had with NewLeb for context.

Thanks!

Thanks.

What is the context of musta2jara in these hadiths?
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Seriously, do you need hand holding? Did you read the sentences I quoted for context or only the words in bold?

Apparently the word "musta2jara" is used to explain in the context of why a woman in mutah marriage and also a man in mutah marriage do not inherit one another.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Apparently the word "musta2jara" is used to explain in the context of why a woman in mutah marriage and also a man in mutah marriage do not inherit one another.
It describes the woman in the context of mutaa, you are renting her for a specific period of time and paying her for it. This is why she does not inherit.

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤

13 - تفسير علي بن إبراهيم: " فما استمتعتم به منهن " قال الصادق عليه السلام: " فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة " فهذه الآية دليل على المتعة (1).
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: لأنها مستأجره وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما (2).

So let's recap, a muslim man has the right to marry up to 4 wives (excluding the prophet who can have an unlimited number) , has the right to own female slaves that he can rape or sell or gift. Prostituting a slave is not recommended but a muslim woman can rent her vagina for a predetermined period of time in exchange of ajr.
The Quran provides clear punishment for adultery and fornication. What happens if a muslim man rapes a muslim woman?

For my muslim brothers/sisters in this forum, where is the punishment of rape in the Quran, can someone help me with this one?
If there is none, just say so.
 

NewB

Legendary Member
For my muslim brothers/sisters in this forum, where is the punishment of rape in the Quran, can someone help me with this one?
If there is none, just say so.

the quran does not list every single punishment for the crimes. rape falls under zina or hirabah category. There is an earthly and a heavenly punishment that will put them through some serious suffering.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
It describes the woman in the context of mutaa, you are renting her for a specific period of time and paying her for it. This is why she does not inherit.

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٠٠ - الصفحة ٣١٤

13 - تفسير علي بن إبراهيم: " فما استمتعتم به منهن " قال الصادق عليه السلام: " فما استمتعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة " فهذه الآية دليل على المتعة (1).
14 - المحاسن: ابن معروف، عن القاسم بن عروة، عن عبد الحميد الطائي، عن محمد بن مسلم قال: قلت لأبي جعفر عليه السلام: لم تورث المرأة عمن يتمتع بها؟
فقال: لأنها مستأجره وعدتها خمسة وأربعون يوما (2).

So let's recap, a muslim man has the right to marry up to 4 wives (excluding the prophet who can have an unlimited number) , has the right to own female slaves that he can rape or sell or gift. Prostituting a slave is not recommended but a muslim woman can rent her vagina for a predetermined period of time in exchange of ajr.
The Quran provides clear punishment for adultery and fornication. What happens if a muslim man rapes a muslim woman?

For my muslim brothers/sisters in this forum, where is the punishment of rape in the Quran, can someone help me with this one?
If there is none, just say so.

Rape is treated under zina.

I wont really react to your provocative BS. My time isnt worth such childish display of inflammatory arrogance.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
the quran does not list every single punishment for the crimes. rape falls under zina or hirabah category. There is an earthly and a heavenly punishment that will put them through some serious suffering.

Thank you for your polite reply NewB. Can you please show me how rape falls under zina or hirabah? The verse + the tafsir would be appreciated.
Remember, zina is two people who are consenting in adultery or fornication. Rape is a greater offense as the woman did not consent to adultery or fornication. Hiraba is 5:33, please show me where rape falls under this category. Thank you!
 

NewB

Legendary Member
Thank you for your polite reply NewB. Can you please show me how rape falls under zina or hirabah? The verse + the tafsir would be appreciated.
Remember, zina is two people who are consenting in adultery or fornication. Rape is a greater offense as the woman did not consent to adultery or fornication. Hiraba is 5:33, please show me where rape falls under this category. Thank you!

There is zina with consent (ridah) and forced zina (ikrah). Use of a weapon increases the severity to hiraba. You can do your own research as there are plenty of explanations based on the different sects. If I'm not mistaken Malikis apply the hadd punishment since they consider the violate of one's privates more severe than theft or war.

do a quick search you will find a ton of resources.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Rape is treated under zina.

Really? Did you decide this? how about some reference? Is it anywhere in the Quran?

I wont really react to your provocative BS. My time isnt worth such childish display of inflammatory arrogance.

bla bla bla, if you were able to refute any of what I said above you would've done so. Don't be ashamed of what Allah allows in Islam. It's not my fault this stuff is in your books. I'm just on a discovery journey.

Furthermore, while I am disappointed in your reply, I am more disappointed in Allah who spent so much time granting Muhammad's desires. He could've spared 1 clear verse about rape.

For example in verse 33:50
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمِّكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمَّاتِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالَاتِكَ اللَّاتِي هَاجَرْنَ مَعَكَ وَامْرَأَةً مُؤْمِنَةً إِنْ وَهَبَتْ نَفْسَهَا لِلنَّبِيِّ إِنْ أَرَادَ النَّبِيُّ أَنْ يَسْتَنْكِحَهَا خَالِصَةً لَكَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۗ قَدْ عَلِمْنَا مَا فَرَضْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِي أَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ لِكَيْلَا يَكُونَ

Besides his unlimited number of wives and female slaves, if a pious woman offers herself to the prophet, she will be reserved exclusively for him.
تفسير القمي - علي بن إبراهيم القمي - ج ٢ - الصفحة ١٩٥

ثم خاطب الله نبيه صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: (يا أيها النبي إنا أحللنا لك أزواجك اللاتي آتيت أجورهن وما ملكت يمينك مما أفاء الله عليك) يعني من الغنيمة (وبنات عمك وبنات عماتك - إلى قوله - وامرأة مؤمنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبي) فإنه كان سبب نزولها ان امرأة من الأنصار أتت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وقد تهيأت وتزينت فقالت: يا رسول الله هل لك في حاجة؟ فقد وهبت نفسي لك، فقالت لها عائشة: قبحك الله ما انهمك للرجال؟!

So this lady shows up in her best to offer herself to the prophet which obviously pisses Aisha off.

فقال لها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله مه يا عائشة! فإنها رغبت في رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إذ زهدتن فيه ثم قال: رحمك الله ورحمكم الله يا معاشر الأنصار نصرني رجالكم ورغبت في نساؤكم ارجعي رحمك الله فاني أنتظر أمر الله فأنزل الله (وامرأة مؤمنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبي ان أراد النبي أن يستنكحها خالصة لك من دون المؤمنين) فلا تحل الهبة إلا لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله

Of course Allah is always on alert when it comes to the prophet's sex life. He immediately grants him free access to these women who are looking to be blessed by his pickle.

And it doesn't stop there of course! The prophet is a man of good taste, it appears that he started getting all sorts of women seeking his manly blessings. I can see how this can be problematic, he'd have to sleep with the good, the bad and the ugly. Allah can't let that happen so he also followed up with 33:51:

٥١ تُرْجِي مَنْ تَشَاءُ مِنْهُنَّ وَتُؤْوِي إِلَيْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ وَمَنِ ابْتَغَيْتَ مِمَّنْ عَزَلْتَ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَنْ تَقَرَّ أَعْيُنُهُنَّ وَلَا يَحْزَنَّ وَيَرْضَيْنَ بِمَا آتَيْتَهُنَّ كُلُّهُنَّ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَلِيمًا

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ٢٢ - الصفحة ٢٠٦
معنى قوله تعالى: " وامرأة مؤمنة إن وهبت نفسها للنبي " قلت: أرأيت قوله: " ترجي من تشاء منهن وتؤوي إليك من تشاء " قال: من آوى (1) فقد نكح، ومن أرجى فلم ينكح

I got you covered Mohamad, pick only those you desire!
I also love this part: ترجي من تشاء it's basically Don't call us, we'll call you :p

I have yet to discover the wisdom behind Allah's special attention to the prophet's sex life and marital problems. Can you enlighten me?
 

NewB

Legendary Member
Really? Did you decide this? how about some reference? Is it anywhere in the Quran?



bla bla bla, if you were able to refute any of what I said above you would've done so. Don't be ashamed of what Allah allows in Islam. It's not my fault this stuff is in your books. I'm just on a discovery journey.

Furthermore, while I am disappointed in your reply, I am more disappointed in Allah who spent so much time granting Muhammad's desires. He could've spared 1 clear verse about rape.

For example in verse 33:50
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَحْلَلْنَا لَكَ أَزْوَاجَكَ اللَّاتِي آتَيْتَ أُجُورَهُنَّ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ يَمِينُكَ مِمَّا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمِّكَ وَبَنَاتِ عَمَّاتِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالِكَ وَبَنَاتِ خَالَاتِكَ اللَّاتِي هَاجَرْنَ مَعَكَ وَامْرَأَةً مُؤْمِنَةً إِنْ وَهَبَتْ نَفْسَهَا لِلنَّبِيِّ إِنْ أَرَادَ النَّبِيُّ أَنْ يَسْتَنْكِحَهَا خَالِصَةً لَكَ مِنْ دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۗ قَدْ عَلِمْنَا مَا فَرَضْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِي أَزْوَاجِهِمْ وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ لِكَيْلَا يَكُونَ

Besides his unlimited number of wives and female slaves, if a pious woman offers herself to the prophet, she will be reserved exclusively for him.
تفسير القمي - علي بن إبراهيم القمي - ج ٢ - الصفحة ١٩٥

ثم خاطب الله نبيه صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: (يا أيها النبي إنا أحللنا لك أزواجك اللاتي آتيت أجورهن وما ملكت يمينك مما أفاء الله عليك) يعني من الغنيمة (وبنات عمك وبنات عماتك - إلى قوله - وامرأة مؤمنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبي) فإنه كان سبب نزولها ان امرأة من الأنصار أتت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وقد تهيأت وتزينت فقالت: يا رسول الله هل لك في حاجة؟ فقد وهبت نفسي لك، فقالت لها عائشة: قبحك الله ما انهمك للرجال؟!

So this lady shows up in her best to offer herself to the prophet which obviously pisses Aisha off.

فقال لها رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله مه يا عائشة! فإنها رغبت في رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إذ زهدتن فيه ثم قال: رحمك الله ورحمكم الله يا معاشر الأنصار نصرني رجالكم ورغبت في نساؤكم ارجعي رحمك الله فاني أنتظر أمر الله فأنزل الله (وامرأة مؤمنة ان وهبت نفسها للنبي ان أراد النبي أن يستنكحها خالصة لك من دون المؤمنين) فلا تحل الهبة إلا لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله

Of course Allah is always on alert when it comes to the prophet's sex life. He immediately grants him free access to these women who are looking to be blessed by his pickle.

And it doesn't stop there of course! The prophet is a man of good taste, it appears that he started getting all sorts of women seeking his manly blessings. I can see how this can be problematic, he'd have to sleep with the good, the bad and the ugly. Allah can't let that happen so he also followed up with 33:51:

٥١ تُرْجِي مَنْ تَشَاءُ مِنْهُنَّ وَتُؤْوِي إِلَيْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ وَمَنِ ابْتَغَيْتَ مِمَّنْ عَزَلْتَ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ أَدْنَىٰ أَنْ تَقَرَّ أَعْيُنُهُنَّ وَلَا يَحْزَنَّ وَيَرْضَيْنَ بِمَا آتَيْتَهُنَّ كُلُّهُنَّ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَلِيمًا حَلِيمًا

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ٢٢ - الصفحة ٢٠٦
معنى قوله تعالى: " وامرأة مؤمنة إن وهبت نفسها للنبي " قلت: أرأيت قوله: " ترجي من تشاء منهن وتؤوي إليك من تشاء " قال: من آوى (1) فقد نكح، ومن أرجى فلم ينكح

I got you covered Mohamad, pick only those you desire!
I also love this part: ترجي من تشاء it's basically Don't call us, we'll call you :p

I have yet to discover the wisdom behind Allah's special attention to the prophet's sex life and marital problems. Can you enlighten me?


Nikah means marriage, but you're probably to dumb or simply copy pasting from someone else without any knowledge of islam. lol.

33:50 explained: Al - Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir- Surah33.Al-Ahzab, Ayah50 | Alim
 

Totenkopf

New Member
There is zina with consent (ridah) and forced zina (ikrah). Use of a weapon increases the severity to hiraba. You can do your own research as there are plenty of explanations based on the different sects. If I'm not mistaken Malikis apply the hadd punishment since they consider the violate of one's privates more severe than theft or war.
do a quick search you will find a ton of resources.

I did do a quick search, it ultimately boils down to what jurists and scholars decide simply because there is no clear punishment for rape.

Instead of Allah sending a useless verse about Suleiman's flying carpet for example, he could've defined a clear punishment for rape!

Nikah means marriage, but you're probably to dumb or simply copy pasting from someone else without any knowledge of islam. lol.

33:50 explained: Al - Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir- Surah33.Al-Ahzab, Ayah50 | Alim

And here I thought I was having a conversation with a decent man, I guess I can't escape the name calling even though the only books I am copy pasting from are your books!

Have you ever read the hilarious tafsir for this verse? 18:50
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا

تفسير الجامع لاحكام القرآن/ القرطبي (ت 671 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

وقيل : إن الله - تعالى - خلق له في فخذه اليمنى ذكرا وفي اليسرى فرجا ; فهو ينكح هذا بهذا ، فيخرج له كل يوم عشر بيضات ، يخرج من كل بيضة سبعون شيطانا وشيطانة ، فهو يخرج وهو يطير ، وأعظمهم عند أبيهم منزلة أعظمهم في بني آدم فتنة

You were saying what? :lol:
 

NewLeb

Member
My friend, we need to call things by their proper name.
Regardless of context, sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will is called Rape.

Regardless of context? But context makes all the difference here. You are speaking from a post-modernist and post-feminist perspective, and you may not even know it. Slaves never had “will,” as it was their masters who ultimately had power over them. Slaves may have had rights, but the concept of them having the will to refuse specific orders- especially sex in terms of female slaves- is absurd.

Fortunately, we both read arabic very well, the verse cannot be clearer. I am glad you noticed that the translations are not accurate. In fact, they are sort of embellishing the verse to make it sound nicer.
In the sunni vs shia issues, you know I have no dog in this fight. The sunni scholars do not deny its meaning either:
تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القرآن/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

قال: والاستمتاع هو النكاح ههنا إذا دخل بها. وقال آخرون: بل معنى ذلك: فما تمتعتم به منهنّ بأجر تمتع اللذة، لا بنكاح مطلق على وجه النكاح الذي يكون بولىّ وشهود ومهر

It appears that this verse was abrogated based on the following:
قال عليّ رضي الله عنه: لولا أن عمر رضي الله عنه نهى عن المتعة ما زنى إلا شقّى
Only an idiot would commint zina if it wasn't for Omar's abrogation. (who the heck is omar to abrogate Allah's verses?)

But in Ibn Kathir we read the following:
وقد استدل بعموم هذه الآية على نكاح المتعة، ولا شك أنه كان مشروعاً في ابتداء الإسلام، ثم نسخ بعد ذلك
وقد ذهب الشافعي وطائفة من العلماء إلى أنه أبيح، ثم نسخ ثم أبيح ثم نسخ مرتين

أنه غزا مع رسول الله يوم فتح مكة، فقال " يا أيها الناس إني كنت أذنت لكم في الاستمتاع من النساء، وإن الله قد حرم ذلك إلى يوم القيامة، فمن كان عنده منهن شيء فليخل سبيله، ولا تأخذوا مما آتيتموهن شيئاً "

So here's the thing, I have come by verses in the Quran that were abrogated by other verses. No problem since the Quran is Allah's words, he is allowed to abrogate his own verses. If I missed the abrogation verse in the Quran, forgive me and I am happy to be corrected.
But it seems that this verse was abrogated OUTSIDE of the Quran, which means it is NOT Allah that abrogated it or else he would have done it in the Quran. So whether it is Omar or Muhamad who abrogated it, it does not stand, I do not accept mere humans going against the word of Allah.

So when the Shia say the woman is مستأجره ie rented for sex, it is not wrong, they are correct about it.
عن أبي جعفر وأبي عبد الله عليهما والسلام أنهما قالا: هو أن يزيدها في الاجرة وتزيده في الاجل
تفسير الميزان - السيد الطباطبائي - ج ٤ - الصفحة ٢٩٠

It's like calling a car rental and asking them to charge your credit card because you want to keep the car for 1 more day.

My concern is not about whether the Sunnis or Shiites are right here. Like all other verses in the Qur’an, they must always be taken in consideration to each other; along with the teachings of the Prophet, and all the other Messengers and saints and friends of God.

Ergo, the aim of man is righteousness; it is not to be attached to the pleasures of this world, be it sex or gold. When considering the possibility of mutah in light of Truth, we can then perceive it through a non-egoic lens.

because in adultery and fornication, both parties consent to the act. When it comes to rape, the woman did not consent to commit an act of adultery or fornication, her will has not been respected as she is being violated by force. Hence the "greater" offence as it is an offence to Allah and against another human.

So where does the Quran lay out the punishment for rape?

I understand the consent part, but our overarching disagreement seems to be rooted in the distinction between the metaphysical and spiritual effects of certain human acts, and the legalistic notions that are more based upon a rational and cerebral position of those very same actions.

In other words, Allah doesn’t forbid sex (outside marriage) because He’s personally offended by it. The Quran warns man to avoid said acts because of the detrimental repercussions that they can have on a level that may not be readily perceivable to the average everyday person.

Now, as far as I’m aware, the Qur’an doesn’t lay out any particular punishment against rape (as it is understood in the modern, post-industrialist sense), but this doesn’t mean that a Imam can’t find a befitting judgement based on his analysis of the crime. Indeed, some schools of thought may simply refer to the punishments reserved for fornication or adultery in dispensing justice for rape.
 

Ralph N

Well-Known Member
Some one fooling the world that he is a prophet from God, asking for money sex and power , some naive people believed him, even without any miracles or proof that he is special...
Poor people, even till now they still believe he cut the moon in half... went on a trip and had time travel and fast travel to somewhere he never saw...

Stories about things are real, stories about nothing that is still proven... just war, sabaya, jezzya, killings for gods sake, as if god needed people and soldiers to do his dirty work..
But the devil needs ....if you see what I mean.
 
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