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Deep into Islam..

Rafidi

Legendary Member
Really? Did you decide this? how about some reference? Is it anywhere in the Quran?

Before you keep throwing red herrings seeking attention and wasting my time, read verse 4:24. And then explain what the highlighted phrase means:

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا - 4:24
 

Ralph N

Well-Known Member
La2 ya 3ammeh. Dont call him sick. You will make him hate you.
I dont hate Muslim individuals because I am not a blind hater, I hate the Ideology that keeps spreading hatred, sabaya , jezzya, killings wars...and fking ones own son in laws wife.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
the actions is very suspicious, the guy literally didnt leave any women he was attracted too from his lust free.
Unfortunately many Islamic books relating the life of Muhammad describe a bad person. But a critical reading of Islamic books with a non pre-assumption towards him not being a prophet of God, allows to have a different perception of the Prophet.

The Prophet can't but be better than Ali that he shaped the personality and whose path was the closest to Muhammad's path. And for us (at least the Shias among the Muslims) it is a divine miracle that despite all his enemies, the personality of Ali couldn't have been tarnished.
 

Ralph N

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately many Islamic books relating the life of Muhammad describe a bad person. But a critical reading of Islamic books with a non pre-assumption towards him not being a prophet of God, allows to have a different perception of the Prophet.

The Prophet can't but be better than Ali that he shaped the personality and whose path was the closest to Muhammad's path. And for us (at least the Shias among the Muslims) it is a divine miracle that despite all his enemies, the personality of Ali couldn't have been tarnished.

I am speaking from the Quran..... he forced his son in law to divorce his wife, and then he married her.. then he divorced her.. where is the divine in that?!!!
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
I am speaking from the Quran..... he forced his son in law to divorce his wife, and then he married her.. then he divorced her.. where is the divine in that?!!!
Transmit the divine law that adoption doesn't imply the same restriction than parent relationship.
 

Ralph N

Well-Known Member
Transmit the divine law that adoption doesn't imply the same restriction than parent relationship.

Isnt it weird for you that the prophet just gets into a nikah job with zaynag bent jahsh then he divorce her, and make her divorce her husband?!! I mean its really weird... and you call that Divine law? hmm....dont you think its Devilish law?
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
Isnt it weird for you that the prophet just gets into a nikah job with zaynag bent jahsh then he divorce her, and make her divorce her husband?!! I mean its really weird... and you call that Divine law? hmm....dont you think its Devilish law?
The law applied among the Arabs back then was that adoption imply the same restrictions than parental relationship. The Divine broke it.

There are always at least 2 months before Zaid's wife could marry again. You, with your cultural background consider divorce and remarrying as evil. In our Islamic culture, there is nothing wrong with divorce and about marriage or remarriage there also nothing wrong when the conditions are respected, in particular the conditions that impede any bastardization.

If the West and South America applied these Islamic conditions, the situation of families there would be better. What do you think?
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Before you keep throwing red herrings seeking attention and wasting my time, read verse 4:24. And then explain what the highlighted phrase means:

وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ ۖ كِتَابَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا بِأَمْوَالِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا اسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِ مِنْهُنَّ فَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَاضَيْتُم بِهِ مِن بَعْدِ الْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا - 4:24

Red herring? the subject is closed my friend, the punishment for rape is decided by scholars and jurists, there are no clear instructions to work with.
I would have preferred Allah send a verse about this rather than inform us of suleiman's flying carpet.

Now for your question, tekram 3eynak brother:
الأمثل في تفسير كتاب الله المنزل - الشيخ ناصر مكارم الشيرازي - ج ٣ - الصفحة ٦١٣

بأن المسلمين يستطيعون الزواج بالنساء المحصنات من المسلمات ومن أهل الكتاب، شرط أن يدفعوا لهن مهورهن
على أن يكون التواصل بوسيلة الزواج المشروع وليس عن طريق الزنا الصريح، ولا عن طريق المعاشرة الخفية، حيث تقول الآية: محصنين غير مسافحين ولا متخذي أخدان

Zawaj mutaa is zawaj mashroo3

وقد اختلف فقهاء المسلمين في أن جواز الزواج بالمرأة الكتابية هل ينحصر بالنوع المؤقت من الزواج، أو يشمل النوعين: الدائم والمؤقت؟

لا يرى علماء السنة فرقا بين نوعي الزواج في هذا المجال، ويعتقدون بأن الآية عامة، بينما يعتقد جمع من علماء الشيعة أن الآية مقتصرة على الزواج المؤقت، وتؤيد روايات وردت عن أئمة أهل البيت (عليهم السلام) هذا الرأي أيضا.

والقرائن الموجودة في الآية يمكن أن تكون دليلا على هذا القول.

وأول هذه القرائن هو قوله تعالى: إذا آتيتموهن أجورهن ولو أن لفظة " الأجر " تطلق على المهر في نوعي الزواج الدائم والمؤقت، إلا أنها غالبا ما ترد لبيان المهر في الزواج المؤقت، أي أنها تناسب هذا الأخير أكثر.


أما القرينة الثانية فهي قوله تعالى: غير مسافحين ولا متخذي أخدان ... فهي تتلاءم أكثر مع الزواج المؤقت، لأن الزواج الدائم ليس فيه شبه الزنا أو الصداقة السرية لكي ينهى عنه،

Remember, ٣ الزَّانِي لَا يَنْكِحُ إِلَّا زَانِيَةً but a woman who slept with 100 men according to the laws of temporary marriage: ajl and ajr is not a zaniya, she falls under the مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ
 

Totenkopf

New Member
This does not have to degenerate into personal attacks. @agnostic @NewLeb @NewB @Rafidi I don't know you guys and I have nothing against you.
I don't see why @Ralph N has to be branded by the maronite as if it's an insult, I am a maronite and my closest friends are shia from kfarsir and qa3iyeh. I vote FPM in part because I love these people and want to stand by them, I do not wish to see civil war again as it hurts us all.

So don't take any of this personal, no one hates you. I have the right to criticize your ideology just like you have the same right to do with ours. Calling things by their real name might hurt but it is what it is. It's best if we stick to official books, did I post anything not referenced from your books? @Ralph N was a bit raw in his reply but he did post one thing that a lot of you missed.

فعند نزول الآية المذكورة قالت عائشة: ما أرى ربك إلا يسارع في هواك. ومعناه كما قال ابن حجر: (أي ما أرى الله إلا موجداً لما تريد بلا تأخير، منزلا لما تحب وتختار
فتح الباري - ابن حجر - ج ٨ - الصفحة ٤٠٥

Aisha who was a mere teenager at the time (she was 18 when the prophet died) figured it out, I am surprised you don't see it. The prophet had an Amazon prime membership with Allah, everything he desired was met with a next day verse delivery. She's a kid and she figured out the game.

The law applied among the Arabs back then was that adoption imply the same restrictions than parental relationship. The Divine broke it.

There are always at least 2 months before Zaid's wife could marry again. You, with your cultural background consider divorce and remarrying as evil. In our Islamic culture, there is nothing wrong with divorce and about marriage or remarriage there also nothing wrong when the conditions are respected, in particular the conditions that impede any bastardization.

If the West and South America applied these Islamic conditions, the situation of families there would be better. What do you think?

@agnostic my friend, your explanation makes no sense at all, if Allah wanted to restrict adoptions, there would have been an amazon prime delivery the next day doing just that after the adoption was announced without going through all the drama. You do know the intricate details of the story right? we shall revisit it.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Regardless of context? But context makes all the difference here. You are speaking from a post-modernist and post-feminist perspective, and you may not even know it. Slaves never had “will,” as it was their masters who ultimately had power over them. Slaves may have had rights, but the concept of them having the will to refuse specific orders- especially sex in terms of female slaves- is absurd.

First, allow me to thank you for your respectful reply as you haven't called me names yet lol

Second, think about this for a second, civilizations older than islam had laws regarding rape as a capital crime. Are you telling me that a free woman had feelings and a slave woman did not so it was not considered rape to be violated sexually? If tomorrow we legalize rape, does it become morally acceptable? Does it hurt the woman less? does it annul emotional damage?
A woman can go from free to slave in 1 day like Safiyah. Rape is rape my friend, the only difference between a free woman and a slave woman is that one had the right to complain and the other didn't, that is your context.

My concern is not about whether the Sunnis or Shiites are right here. Like all other verses in the Qur’an, they must always be taken in consideration to each other; along with the teachings of the Prophet, and all the other Messengers and saints and friends of God.

Ergo, the aim of man is righteousness; it is not to be attached to the pleasures of this world, be it sex or gold. When considering the possibility of mutah in light of Truth, we can then perceive it through a non-egoic lens.

I am not sure I understand where this is coming from. The pleasures of this world are MAGNIFIED in heaven, instead of a jug of milk, rivers of milk. Instead of 4 wives, a host of houris. Your hashish in this world becomes cocaine in heaven. I would also love to know how to take the mutaa verse in consideration. It's just a framework for temporary marriages ie sex without zina.

I understand the consent part, but our overarching disagreement seems to be rooted in the distinction between the metaphysical and spiritual effects of certain human acts, and the legalistic notions that are more based upon a rational and cerebral position of those very same actions.

In other words, Allah doesn’t forbid sex (outside marriage) because He’s personally offended by it. The Quran warns man to avoid said acts because of the detrimental repercussions that they can have on a level that may not be readily perceivable to the average everyday person.

Now, as far as I’m aware, the Qur’an doesn’t lay out any particular punishment against rape (as it is understood in the modern, post-industrialist sense), but this doesn’t mean that a Imam can’t find a befitting judgement based on his analysis of the crime. Indeed, some schools of thought may simply refer to the punishments reserved for fornication or adultery in dispensing justice for rape.

Thank you for your honest reply. Like I said in previous replies to others, I would have preferred Allah sends a clear verse in this regard instead of informing us that Suleiman had a flying carpet.
 

NewB

Legendary Member
I did do a quick search, it ultimately boils down to what jurists and scholars decide simply because there is no clear punishment for rape.

Instead of Allah sending a useless verse about Suleiman's flying carpet for example, he could've defined a clear punishment for rape!



And here I thought I was having a conversation with a decent man, I guess I can't escape the name calling even though the only books I am copy pasting from are your books!

Have you ever read the hilarious tafsir for this verse? 18:50
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا

تفسير الجامع لاحكام القرآن/ القرطبي (ت 671 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

وقيل : إن الله - تعالى - خلق له في فخذه اليمنى ذكرا وفي اليسرى فرجا ; فهو ينكح هذا بهذا ، فيخرج له كل يوم عشر بيضات ، يخرج من كل بيضة سبعون شيطانا وشيطانة ، فهو يخرج وهو يطير ، وأعظمهم عند أبيهم منزلة أعظمهم في بني آدم فتنة

You were saying what? :lol:

If you were here to genuinely understand, then everyone would have respected you as several attempts were made to explain context and meaning. You don't understand islamic jurisprudence, hadith, or the concept of ijtihad, yet you want to argue.

Go ahead, it's a bit entertaining.
 

NewLeb

Member
Second, think about this for a second, civilizations older than islam had laws regarding rape as a capital crime. Are you telling me that a free woman had feelings and a slave woman did not so it was not considered rape to be violated sexually? If tomorrow we legalize rape, does it become morally acceptable? Does it hurt the woman less? does it annul emotional damage?

Do you have examples from ancient societies where female slaves accused their owners of rape and tried them in a court of law?

I am not sure I understand where this is coming from. The pleasures of this world are MAGNIFIED in heaven, instead of a jug of milk, rivers of milk. Instead of 4 wives, a host of houris. Your hashish in this world becomes cocaine in heaven. I would also love to know how to take the mutaa verse in consideration. It's just a framework for temporary marriages ie sex without zina.

As the Prophet said, “the world runs after those who run after God.” In other words, the degree to which someone can attract the pleasures of this world is directly proportional to the state of his relationship with his Creator. A rich man who attaches himself completely to the false realities of the dunya will not recover from a blow that wipes away his entire wealth. This is because he attached his entire existence to his money, and when that went away, so did he.

As God says in a hadith qudsi, “I am as my servant thinks of me.” This means that your general state of existence is ultimately determined by your inherent and general beliefs of Reality. This concept is also found in Christianity in the form of “The Kingdom of God is within you,” as well as other far-Eastern philosophies that are characterized by the “first within, then without” mantra.

This is precisely why only prayer and good deeds have real value on this earth, as they are the only forms of human actions that detach oneself from the ego. Real value is the spirit of man, and it is his spirit that the world bows down to. Those who are running after and clinging to false lights are only pushing the world further away from them. This formula applies to the hereafter!


In regards to mutah, we need to first understand that sex itself symbolizes a number of things. The hidden realities of the universe are present here too, albeit normal humans cannot perceive them.

Sex is a purely bestial act where intense pleasure is derived from a primal and pre-rational source. It is one of the most satisfying experiences in terms of personal pleasure, and it is metaphorically known to be one’s loss of innocence. As the Prophet said, the more a man engages in illicit sex, the more that the light of his countenance will fade away. Ever wonder why so many modern man today are bald? Yup, zina.

That’s where marriage comes in. This sacred bonding allows sex to be performed without the negative and detrimental effects that illicit intercourse would otherwise manifest. Marriage is on a level where the spirit and intellect of man form a bedrock of inter-existence. This shields individuals from the troublesome metaphysical and spiritual reactions that result from haram intercourse.

As Lil Wayne says, “as soon as I come, I come to my senses.” ;)
 
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