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Deep into Islam..

Totenkopf

New Member
If you were here to genuinely understand, then everyone would have respected you as several attempts were made to explain context and meaning. You don't understand islamic jurisprudence, hadith, or the concept of ijtihad, yet you want to argue.

Go ahead, it's a bit entertaining.
Are you Allah to know if my interest is genuine or not? Show me where several attempts were made?
I spend some of MY time everyday reading tafsir, be truthful with me, did you hear about the shaitan laying eggs before I mentioned it to you?
What kind of stupidity is this? See I just stated my opinion, I am not arguing with you, you have to accept that people will question things and give their opinion.

I am no expert in islam, far from it. If I was, I wouldn't be asking these questions obviously.

The only person who has been honest in his attempts so far is @NewLeb everyone else simply shuts down.
I am glad it's a bit entertaining to you, there will certainly be more to come so enjoy it!
 
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Totenkopf

New Member
Do you have examples from ancient societies where female slaves accused their owners of rape and tried them in a court of law?
Brother, I think we lost the thread on this one. First to answer your question, I don't. At best, the owner of the slave can report the crime not the slave.

You had previously said:
Slaves never had “will,” as it was their masters who ultimately had power over them. Slaves may have had rights, but the concept of them having the will to refuse specific orders- especially sex in terms of female slaves- is absurd.

You implied that it's not rape because the woman is property and she has no will. My answer was that rape is a grave matter which is why all societies consider it an offense. Rape is rape regardless of the status of the woman: free, slave or war booty.

To conclude, did the prophet, Ali and their companions rape women after battle? is the act ugly in and of itself or does the ugliness depend on the status of the subject on the receiving end of the act?

As the Prophet said, “the world runs after those who run after God.” In other words, the degree to which someone can attract the pleasures of this world is directly proportional to the state of his relationship with his Creator. A rich man who attaches himself completely to the false realities of the dunya will not recover from a blow that wipes away his entire wealth. This is because he attached his entire existence to his money, and when that went away, so did he.

As God says in a hadith qudsi, “I am as my servant thinks of me.” This means that your general state of existence is ultimately determined by your inherent and general beliefs of Reality. This concept is also found in Christianity in the form of “The Kingdom of God is within you,” as well as other far-Eastern philosophies that are characterized by the “first within, then without” mantra.

This is precisely why only prayer and good deeds have real value on this earth, as they are the only forms of human actions that detach oneself from the ego. Real value is the spirit of man, and it is his spirit that the world bows down to. Those who are running after and clinging to false lights are only pushing the world further away from them. This formula applies to the hereafter!
I will agree with you my friend despite the fact that some of the prophet's deeds do not qualify as good. I will not open a new door here.

In regards to mutah, we need to first understand that sex itself symbolizes a number of things. The hidden realities of the universe are present here too, albeit normal humans cannot perceive them.

Sex is a purely bestial act where intense pleasure is derived from a primal and pre-rational source. It is one of the most satisfying experiences in terms of personal pleasure, and it is metaphorically known to be one’s loss of innocence. As the Prophet said, the more a man engages in illicit sex, the more that the light of his countenance will fade away. Ever wonder why so many modern man today are bald? Yup, zina.
That is interesting, out of curiosity, do you have the hadith details for this? My grandfather passed away without losing his hair. My dad is bald, I think I need to have a talk with him!

That’s where marriage comes in. This sacred bonding allows sex to be performed without the negative and detrimental effects that illicit intercourse would otherwise manifest. Marriage is on a level where the spirit and intellect of man form a bedrock of inter-existence. This shields individuals from the troublesome metaphysical and spiritual reactions that result from haram intercourse.

As Lil Wayne says, “as soon as I come, I come to my senses.” ;)
Nicely said though I do have a problem with one aspect, how can one have a sacred bond with multiple wives? and for those that had sexual slaves like the prophet and his companions, are you implying their sexual acts had negative and detrimental effects on them because they were not married?

lol @li Wayne!
 

Totenkopf

New Member
I have been reading the verses related to Issa and in my opinion the following is one of the most powerful:

٤٩ وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ
49 A messenger to the Children of Israel: “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the figure of a bird; then I breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave. And I heal the blind and the leprous, and I revive the dead, by Allah’s leave. And I inform you concerning what you eat, and what you store in your homes. In that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”

I am trying to break the verse down for better understanding.
Issa clearly was given superpowers by Allah. The last two of them, believe it or not, are the most interesting.

بحار الأنوار - العلامة المجلسي - ج ١٤ - الصفحة ٢٤٦
عن ابن عباس قال: جاء نفر من اليهود إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وآله فقالوا فيما قالوا:عيسى خير منك، قال: ولم ذاك؟ قالوا: لان عيسى بن مريم عليه السلام كان ذات يوم بعقبة بيت المقدس فجاءته الشياطين ليحملوه، فأمر الله عز وجل جبرئيل أن اضرب بجناحك الأيمن
وجوه الشياطين، وألقهم في النار، فضرب بأجنحته وجوههم وألقاهم في النار


So a group of Jews told the prophet: Issa was better than you.
Why? asked the prophet. The Jews answered because once demons tried to take him but Allah ordered Gibril to hit their faces with their right wing and send them to hell. And so it was done by Gibril.

This is where thinking outside the box is handy. The Jews DO NOT consider Issa the messiah, he is a false prophet to them. Why would they say such a thing? Why would Allah save a false prophet from demons?

The answer is simple in my opinion, they were baiting Mohammad and he fell for it since he tried to one up them!
قال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله: لقد أعطيت أنا أفضل من ذلك
ie I have a better one for you!

، اإن عيسى عليه السلام كان يقول لبني إسرائيل: إني رسول الله إليكم، وإني أخلق لكم من الطين كهيئة الطير فأنفخ فيه فيكون طيرا بإذن الله، وأبرئ الأكمه والأبرص، الأكمه هو الأعمى، قالوا: ما نرى الذي تصنع إلا سحرا، فأرنا آية نعلم أنك صادق، قال: أرأيتم إن أخبرتكم بما تأكلون وما تدخرون في بيوتكم - يقول: ما أكلتم في بيوتكم قبل أن تخرجوا وما ادخرتم إلى الليل - تعلمون أني صادق؟ قالوا: نعم، فكان يقول للرجل:
أكلت كذا وكذا، وشربت كذا وكذا، ورفعت كذا وكذا، فمنهم من يقبل منه فيؤمن، ومنهم من يكفر، وكان لهم في
ذلك آية إن كانوا مؤمنين

Issa used to tell the Jews: I am your messenger, I create a bird for you by the permission of Allah, heal the blind etc and they would reply: this is only magic. So Issa proposed to them and they agreed that if he guesses what they ate and drank, they would believe him.

Something doesn't add up, healing a blind or a paraplegic man that was known by all to suffer since their birth is considered magic, but guessing what they had for breakfast was the key to believing in him?

Can you imagine the silly scenario of how the apostles of Issa came to believe in him?
John, you had an all dressed Man2ouche today with laban 3iran. John: "Allahuakbar, I believe in you"
Luke, you ate goat labneh with black olives, me2ti cuke and Saj bread. Luke: "Allahuakbar, I believe in you"

On a serious note, does anyone have any sources outside of Islam for people believing in Jesus simply because he guessed what they ate for the day? I can't seem to find any!
 

NewB

Legendary Member
Are you Allah to know if my interest is genuine or not? Show me where several attempts were made?
I spend some of MY time everyday reading tafsir, be truthful with me, did you hear about the shaitan laying eggs before I mentioned it to you?
What kind of stupidity is this? See I just stated my opinion, I am not arguing with you, you have to accept that people will question things and give their opinion.

I am no expert in islam, far from it. If I was, I wouldn't be asking these questions obviously.

The only person who has been honest in his attempts so far is @NewLeb everyone else simply shuts down.
I am glad it's a bit entertaining to you, there will certainly be more to come so enjoy it!

You can question, ask, inquire and state your opinion as long as you're not insulting. Once you start insulting others then it's fair game.

Your arguments are are copied, rehashed, similar whatever you want to call it to existing arguments raised by evangelicals and others. I threw you a bait and you responded with the same copy/paste response. That's how I knew you're full of .....

You flaunt Nazi symbols, and you want me to take you seriously ?
 

Totenkopf

New Member
You can question, ask, inquire and state your opinion as long as you're not insulting. Once you start insulting others then it's fair game.

Your arguments are are copied, rehashed, similar whatever you want to call it to existing arguments raised by evangelicals and others. I threw you a bait and you responded with the same copy/paste response. That's how I knew you're full of .....

You flaunt Nazi symbols, and you want me to take you seriously ?

Show me where I attacked someone on a personal level? You started by calling me too dumb rather than write two lines to explain your position. Your reply deserved mine and even then mine was not personal.

You exhibit the typical defense mechanism, nothing new here with the copy paste response. Can you show me that same response about the shaitan story being used elsewhere? Come on, put me on the spot.

Stupidity will be pointed where it applies, you shouldn't get your feelings hurt unless it is you who is the subject. In this thread, YOU are NOT the subject.

Mentioning the avatar of a soldier as Nazi symbols doesn't win you any points mate....relax.
 

Abotareq93

Legendary Member
Show me where I attacked someone on a personal level? You started by calling me too dumb rather than write two lines to explain your position. Your reply deserved mine and even then mine was not personal.

You exhibit the typical defense mechanism, nothing new here with the copy paste response. Can you show me that same response about the shaitan story being used elsewhere? Come on, put me on the spot.

Stupidity will be pointed where it applies, you shouldn't get your feelings hurt unless it is you who is the subject. In this thread, YOU are NOT the subject.

Mentioning the avatar of a soldier as Nazi symbols doesn't win you any points mate....relax.

You should be used to this by now. When they are cornered and they always are, they will resort to sarcasm first then to verbal abuse. Now, if you are in front of him, he might resort to physical violence.
 
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Totenkopf

New Member
@elAshtar a curious question, are you targeting a sunni audience with your videos? I speak for myself as someone who is interested in your religion, the Quran and the Prophet are the central figures and precede all subsequent figures. The topics you are posting are secondary in this regard. Cheers mate!

You should be used to this by now. When they are cornered and they always are, they will resort to sarcasm first then to verbal abuse. Now, if you are in front of him, he might resort to physical violence.

It's really unfortunate, I think they get frustrated by facts they've never heard of. Heck I have never heard of most of this stuff like Jesus gaining followers by guessing what they ate. Then I get accused of using evangelical websites....well here are my evangelical websites:

That's all you need, you have the best islamic scholarly resources under your finger tips, the problem is not many use it. The faith is inherited with no questions asked and then we get abused for asking logical questions. Oh well, it is what it is, I am enjoying learning about Islam as you don't know what you're going to come across when reading the tafsir.
 

NewB

Legendary Member
@elAshtar a curious question, are you targeting a sunni audience with your videos? I speak for myself as someone who is interested in your religion, the Quran and the Prophet are the central figures and precede all subsequent figures. The topics you are posting are secondary in this regard. Cheers mate!



It's really unfortunate, I think they get frustrated by facts they've never heard of. Heck I have never heard of most of this stuff like Jesus gaining followers by guessing what they ate. Then I get accused of using evangelical websites....well here are my evangelical websites:

That's all you need, you have the best islamic scholarly resources under your finger tips, the problem is not many use it. The faith is inherited with no questions asked and then we get abused for asking logical questions. Oh well, it is what it is, I am enjoying learning about Islam as you don't know what you're going to come across when reading the tafsir.

Do you apply hadith chain, authenticity and type to your arguments?
 

NewB

Legendary Member
Show me where I attacked someone on a personal level? You started by calling me too dumb rather than write two lines to explain your position. Your reply deserved mine and even then mine was not personal.

You exhibit the typical defense mechanism, nothing new here with the copy paste response. Can you show me that same response about the shaitan story being used elsewhere? Come on, put me on the spot.

Stupidity will be pointed where it applies, you shouldn't get your feelings hurt unless it is you who is the subject. In this thread, YOU are NOT the subject.

Mentioning the avatar of a soldier as Nazi symbols doesn't win you any points mate....relax.

1. I only replied to your rape argument which you replicated from similar arguments found here: Rape in Islam - WikiIslam

2. I have nothing to be scared of and will defend the religion I believe in. If you want to bring Christianity into it then be my guest (your Jesus discussion).

3. Regarding your satan argument, I'm not sure what that is. Feel free to re-iterate.

FYI - German soldier is one thing, your name is another.
 

elAshtar

Legendary Member
@elAshtar a curious question, are you targeting a sunni audience with your videos? I speak for myself as someone who is interested in your religion, the Quran and the Prophet are the central figures and precede all subsequent figures. The topics you are posting are secondary in this regard. Cheers mate!



It's really unfortunate, I think they get frustrated by facts they've never heard of. Heck I have never heard of most of this stuff like Jesus gaining followers by guessing what they ate. Then I get accused of using evangelical websites....well here are my evangelical websites:

That's all you need, you have the best islamic scholarly resources under your finger tips, the problem is not many use it. The faith is inherited with no questions asked and then we get abused for asking logical questions. Oh well, it is what it is, I am enjoying learning about Islam as you don't know what you're going to come across when reading the tafsir.
No, not targeting a sunni audience. What I have posted are ideas/principles of Islam and Islamic scholars.
 

NewLeb

Member
You implied that it's not rape because the woman is property and she has no will. My answer was that rape is a grave matter which is why all societies consider it an offense. Rape is rape regardless of the status of the woman: free, slave or war booty.

As far as ethics is concerned, it is called for slaves to be treated with respect and care, so in the event that a man may have violently had sex with a slave-woman when she (for legitimate reasons) did not want to, one could soundly argue that the slave-owner may have been transgressing the limits imposed by God. Slaves always had rights in Islam, and slave-owners couldn’t simply do as they pleased, despite them carrying the right to engage in intercourse with them.

To conclude, did the prophet, Ali and their companions rape women after battle? is the act ugly in and of itself or does the ugliness depend on the status of the subject on the receiving end of the act?

Could you perhaps refer us to this event where the Prophet and Ali raped random women in an orgy after some battle? I think I missed that....

I will agree with you my friend despite the fact that some of the prophet's deeds do not qualify as good. I will not open a new door here.

“Good” based on your own perception of what is good, a perception that has been shaped by eons of social and religious conditioning? But alas, it’s beyond good and evil- for God transcends these dualistic notions. Allah is One. Did Adam and Eve not realize that they were naked only after they ate from the fruit? Only Allah knows the entire contents of a man’s heart, and humans are too simple and limited to know all the variables involved (in totality) when it comes to determining the real state of man’s position in the sight of God. Didn’t public opinion want Jesus dead? Indeed, for all we know, Hitler is in heaven, and the Pope is burning in hell.

That is interesting, out of curiosity, do you have the hadith details for this? My grandfather passed away without losing his hair. My dad is bald, I think I need to have a talk with him!

I’ll attempt to find the Hadith, I only heard it in a lecture. In regards to the balding aspect, this is mostly based on individual analyses and research into the spiritual and cosmic effects of human sexual intercourse, and the dimensional context that which it is performed in.

Nicely said though I do have a problem with one aspect, how can one have a sacred bond with multiple wives? and for those that had sexual slaves like the prophet and his companions, are you implying their sexual acts had negative and detrimental effects on them because they were not married?

lol @li Wayne!

1. These questions- albeit legitimate- are nevertheless conceived from a civilizational thought-paradigm that was borne into existence in the post-industrial conditions of Western Europe. Pertinent to this discussion is the status of the female today, where she is readily assumed to be in equal standing to that of the male, and yes, in many cases, even “better” than him.

In a hadith, the Prophet said that one of the signs of the Day of Judgement is that “the slave-woman will give birth to her master.” This is a metaphor for the drastic paradigm shift that humanity has been witnessing for some centuries now (and is currently accelerating), a state whereby the pendulum of the former tradition and systemization of human experience in the physical world is swung to its very inverse.

One example of this would be that of the black man, who was for long perceived and regarded as the optimal human specimen to be enslaved. But as you can see in the West (and sometimes in the East), we are seeing a shift to a situation where it is the negro who is taking the place of the caucasian in the power-authority complex. They’re not there just yet, but you can already see the erosion of post-Enlightenment Western thought, at least in terms of it springing from an absolutely Anglo-Saxon/European, Christian frame of mind.

This is the same case for the female! Western Christianity has always had gripes about how Muslims see and interact with women, but this is only because they (and most of modern humanity) have been conditioned to view both sexes on an equal and identical footing. This is largely due to feminism, Marxist culturalism, and other Western post-Enlightenment thought-nonsense. What isn’t realized is that the female internalizes particular forms of dunya.

No, this does not mean that Eve is exactly like money, or property, or everything else that man strives for on a material level. However, we must remember that God created Eve only after Adam told God that he was lonely in Paradise. The female comes from man, and thus has spiritual and intellectual capacities. However, there is one aspect about her that makes her like all the other pleasures that man chases after, and the fashion in which a man attracts any given lady is remarkably identical to how he does so with other joyful conceptions of material life.

Do you see now how having four wives doesn’t have to be that big of a deal? Mormons don’t care; Muslims don’t care; and rappers don’t mind have many hoes up their sleeves. Ah, but it’s always the concerned Catholic, with his arms crossed and brows frowned, clearly upset that people are having a good time. Deep down he likes it, but he can’t admit it, so he’ll castigate the fun-doers by projecting his own insecurity, his own repressed sexual state, and his own violent nature on the brown Muslim. That way, all he has to do is point the finger at him and say- “look, there’s the bad guy! He’s the bad guy!” Of course, he goes to church the next Sunday thinking everything is going to be just dandy....

2. Now, to tackle your second query, it must once again be reinforced in our reader’s minds that the goal of man is righteousness, and to orient oneself solely towards the false lights and pleasures of this world will lead to destruction here and in the hereafter.

In regards to sexual intercourse, again, there is nothing wrong with the act in and of itself; just like there’s nothing wrong with money, or fame, or success, and so forth. However, since humans live in a universe of infinite possibilities and randomness, it is critical that man establishes perimeters (otherwise known as religion) in order for these worldly items to be enjoyed and experienced in a benign capacity without things going... overboard.

I explained how this is possible with marriage/mutah, and the same line of thinking can also be applied to sexual intercourse within the institution of slavery. In this context, man is not on a daily hunt to get his fix. He isn’t Casablanca, going from one woman to the next, yearning for that instantaneous moment of climax... only to repeat the process the very next night.

In other words, there is a very different set of behaviors and thinking and even facial and bodily movements/gestures involved in both phenomenons, or any human experience for that matter. For example, bowing ones head on the ground generates blood flow to the face, which consequents in a brighter countenance. Indeed, this is the “noor” on the faces of the believers that Islam refers to.

Henceforth, the minute physiological and mental effects of any activity can result in benefit or harm. There needs to be a system in place with clear boundaries and limits (like marriage and slavery), where worldly pleasures can be enjoyed without experiencing the shame and negative repercussions that follow illicit and spontaneous sexual experiences. With the latter, you are taking a big risk! Izza inta 2adda, go right ahead. I know I am. ;)
 
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NewB

Legendary Member
Thoughts from the fellow muslims in this thread. It's the view of ibn taymiya but I would like to hear other opinions.

 

Totenkopf

New Member
Do you apply hadith chain, authenticity and type to your arguments?
The short answer is No.
Here's how I am functioning: I am interested in Islam, the Quran is Allah's words revealed via the Prophet. The prophet is the central figure.
Many of the verses will only make sense if you understand the story behind them. As such, I like to read anywhere from 3-5 scholars (mix sunni and shia) providing tafsir for one or more verses. The tafsir often includes hadith that explains the context of the verse. When the hadith is common among scholars in both groups, I feel pretty confident that it is solid.
Notice I never post stand alone hadiths to discuss a verse, it has to be part of a scholarly tafsir.
I am not a scholar or an expert in Islam, just a curious guy looking into this subject.

1. I only replied to your rape argument which you replicated from similar arguments found here: Rape in Islam - WikiIslam

2. I have nothing to be scared of and will defend the religion I believe in. If you want to bring Christianity into it then be my guest (your Jesus discussion).

3. Regarding your satan argument, I'm not sure what that is. Feel free to re-iterate.

FYI - German soldier is one thing, your name is another.

1- Why didn't you confront me on this from the get go? That's an interesting site and If I were to use it like a kid I could've spammed the thread with all the hadiths they have about rape. I found that Allah was very meticulous when it came to sexuality and marriage as posted in my previous posts. Yet it is surprising that rape was not mentioned given that it was most certainly practiced. @NewLeb understood where I am coming from explaining there is no such thing as rape in the context of slavery and this is why we're discussing back and forth.

2-We're not at war my friend, there's nothing for you to be scared of. You know your religion better than I do so I expect to be corrected, to learn new things from you. If you wish to discuss Christianity, there is a thread for that where you can voice your opinion.

3-There is nothing to argue about regarding the shaitan in verse 18:50, the story of shaitan having sex with his legs to lay eggs is pure nonsense in my opinion. The only reason I quoted this was to show you how the verb nikah was used. I did ask you if you've ever heard of this story prior to me mentioning it.

4-Totenkopf means death head, skulls and bones. This emblem was used by many military units across history as well as the pirates. You accuse me of Nazism with no proof. I am Lebanese, not white, not blond and with no blue eyes. Our friend Savo flaunts his communist utopia all over the forum, where did I ever discuss Nazism as an ideology? WW2 has been over for 85 years, you're beating a dead horse mate. If the soldier is really bothering you I can replace with a cartoon pirate character.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
As far as ethics is concerned, it is called for slaves to be treated with respect and care, so in the event that a man may have violently had sex with a slave-woman when she (for legitimate reasons) did not want to, one could soundly argue that the slave-owner may have been transgressing the limits imposed by God. Slaves always had rights in Islam, and slave-owners couldn’t simply do as they pleased, despite them carrying the right to engage in intercourse with them.
My friend this is where we differ, the act of rape in and of itself is evil regardless of having the right or not.

Could you perhaps refer us to this event where the Prophet and Ali raped random women in an orgy after some battle? I think I missed that....
Tekram 3eynak brother,
الاستذكار - ابن عبد البر - ج ٦ - الصفحة ٢٢٢
أنه سمعه يقول لما أصبنا سبي خيبر سألنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عن العزل فقال ليس من كل الماء يكون الولد فإذا أراد الله أن يخلق شيئا لم يمنعه شيء هكذا رواه شعبة والثوري عن أبي إسحاق عن أبي الوداك عن أبي سعيد في سبي خيبر قال يحيى بن معين أبو الوداك جبر بن نوف ثقة ومعلوم أن سبي خيبر يهوديات وسبي بني المصطلق وسبي أوطاس وثنيات وفي رواية مالك وغيره لهذا الحديث دليل على أن الصحابة في تلك الغزاة انطلقوا على وطء ما وقع في سهامهم من النساء اللواتي [سبوا] وغنموا

The companions of the Prophet were asking him if they should change their oil inside or outside the garage :p
Highlighted in red is the proof that they engaged in the behavior of rape in all of their ghazwat.

Here's the part for Ali :
فتح الباري شرح صحيح البخاري » كتاب المغازي » باب بعث علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام وخالد بن الوليد رضي الله عنه إلى اليمن قبل حجة الوداع

ولأحمد من طريق عبد الجليل عن عبد الله بن بريدة عن أبيه " أبغضت عليا بغضا لم أبغضه أحدا ، وأحببت رجلا من قريش لم أحبه إلا على بغضه [ ص: 665 ] عليا ، قال : فأصبنا سبيا فكتب - أي الرجل - إلى النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : ابعث إلينا من يخمسه ، قال : فبعث إلينا عليا ، وفي السبي وصيفة هي أفضل السبي ، قال : فخمس وقسم ، فخرج ورأسه يقطر - فقلت : يا أبا الحسن ما هذا ؟ فقال : ألم تر إلى الوصيفة ، فإنها صارت في الخمس ، ثم صارت في آل محمد ، ثم صارت في آل علي فوقعت بها

This is a famous hadith that you can find in multiple sources because of how the Prophet answered Bourayda regarding Ali when he complained about him taking a woman from the khoms. So Ali was sent to get 20% of the booty which included women. Among them, the most beautiful woman called Wasifa. Anytime you read about someone coming out with his head sweating (see red text) it means sex was physically demanding! (recall when Hafsa busted the Prophet with his slave girl Maria, the same wording was used, it's in one of my earlier posts)

“Good” based on your own perception of what is good, a perception that has been shaped by eons of social and religious conditioning? But alas, it’s beyond good and evil- for God transcends these dualistic notions. Allah is One. Did Adam and Eve not realize that they were naked only after they ate from the fruit? Only Allah knows the entire contents of a man’s heart, and humans are too simple and limited to know all the variables involved (in totality) when it comes to determining the real state of man’s position in the sight of God. Didn’t public opinion want Jesus dead? Indeed, for all we know, Hitler is in heaven, and the Pope is burning in hell.

It is based on perception if you are your own god. If not, it is relative to the moral framework you adhere to which in our case is very different.


I’ll attempt to find the Hadith, I only heard it in a lecture. In regards to the balding aspect, this is mostly based on individual analyses and research into the spiritual and cosmic effects of human sexual intercourse, and the dimensional context that which it is performed in.

1. These questions- albeit legitimate- are nevertheless conceived from a civilizational thought-paradigm that was borne into existence in the post-industrial conditions of Western Europe. Pertinent to this discussion is the status of the female today, where she is readily assumed to be in equal standing to that of the male, and yes, in many cases, even “better” than him.

In a hadith, the Prophet said that one of the signs of the Day of Judgement is that “the slave-woman will give birth to her master.” This is a metaphor for the drastic paradigm shift that humanity has been witnessing for some centuries now (and is currently accelerating), a state whereby the pendulum of the former tradition and systemization of human experience in the physical world is swung to its very inverse.

One example of this would be that of the black man, who was for long perceived and regarded as the optimal human specimen to be enslaved. But as you can see in the West (and sometimes in the East), we are seeing a shift to a situation where it is the negro who is taking the place of the caucasian in the power-authority complex. They’re not there just yet, but you can already see the erosion of post-Enlightenment Western thought, at least in terms of it springing from an absolutely Anglo-Saxon/European, Christian frame of mind.

This is the same case for the female! Western Christianity has always had gripes about how Muslims see and interact with women, but this is only because they (and most of modern humanity) have been conditioned to view both sexes on an equal and identical footing. This is largely due to feminism, Marxist culturalism, and other Western post-Enlightenment thought-nonsense. What isn’t realized is that the female internalizes particular forms of dunya.

No, this does not mean that Eve is exactly like money, or property, or everything else that man strives for on a material level. However, we must remember that God created Eve only after Adam told God that he was lonely in Paradise. The female comes from man, and thus has spiritual and intellectual capacities. However, there is one aspect about her that makes her like all the other pleasures that man chases after, and the fashion in which a man attracts any given lady is remarkably identical to how he does so with other joyful conceptions of material life.

Do you see now how having four wives doesn’t have to be that big of a deal? Mormons don’t care; Muslims don’t care; and rappers don’t mind have many hoes up their sleeves. Ah, but it’s always the concerned Catholic, with his arms crossed and brows frowned, clearly upset that people are having a good time. Deep down he likes it, but he can’t admit it, so he’ll castigate the fun-doers by projecting his own insecurity, his own repressed sexual state, and his own violent nature on the brown Muslim. That way, all he has to do is point the finger at him and say- “look, there’s the bad guy! He’s the bad guy!” Of course, he goes to church the next Sunday thinking everything is going to be just dandy....

I am trying not to open too many doors so I will keep my replies brief. Why would the females internalize particular forms of dunya and not males? Having four wives doesn't have to be a big deal but having 8 wives or 4 husbands neither.

2. Now, to tackle your second query, it must once again be reinforced in our reader’s minds that the goal of man is righteousness, and to orient oneself solely towards the false lights and pleasures of this world will lead to destruction here and in the hereafter.

In regards to sexual intercourse, again, there is nothing wrong with the act in and of itself; just like there’s nothing wrong with money, or fame, or success, and so forth. However, since humans live in a universe of infinite possibilities and randomness, it is critical that man establishes perimeters (otherwise known as religion) in order for these worldly items to be enjoyed and experienced in a benign capacity without things going... overboard.

I explained how this is possible with marriage/mutah, and the same line of thinking can also be applied to sexual intercourse within the institution of slavery. In this context, man is not on a daily hunt to get his fix. He isn’t Casablanca, going from one woman to the next, yearning for that instantaneous moment of climax... only to repeat the process the very next night.

In other words, there is a very different set of behaviors and thinking and even facial and bodily movements/gestures involved in both phenomenons, or any human experience for that matter. For example, bowing ones head on the ground generates blood flow to the face, which consequents in a brighter countenance. Indeed, this is the “noor” on the faces of the believers that Islam refers to.

Henceforth, the minute physiological and mental effects of any activity can result in benefit or harm. There needs to be a system in place with clear boundaries and limits (like marriage and slavery), where worldly pleasures can be enjoyed without experiencing the shame and negative repercussions that follow illicit and spontaneous sexual experiences. With the latter, you are taking a big risk! Izza inta 2adda, go right ahead. I know I am. ;)
But the system in place like mutah marriage and slavery is advantageous only to males and results in viewing your slave or partner as nothing more than commodity, ie meat. How does this reinforce the goal of righteousness? I think we are not seeing eye to eye because from my Christian perspective that there is a spiritual dimension to the unity between a man and woman, something you did not mention in your text as you focused on facilitating the lower animal instinct part of the act. Interesting discussion mate.
 

NewLeb

Member
My friend this is where we differ, the act of rape in and of itself is evil regardless of having the right or not.

Nothing is evil in and of itself. “Rape”- this is just a word, a sound that comes out of a human’s mouth. It means nothing in terms of ascertaining the true moral resoluteness of an individual’s soul. Only God can do that. It’s like arguing that slavery is evil in of itself, and thus people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were wicked and unscrupulous figures, when nothing is further from the truth.

This is called presentism, which is basically judging past events according to today’s standards and status quo. If one hundred years from now, people determined that YOU yourself were an immoral reprobate, based on the things that you do today (that you may take for granted), would they be correct in their assessment? More importantly, would it even matter what they said?

If you want to feel bad about about it, that’s on you. But you don’t need to cast your “feeling bad” on the parties involved just because it makes you feel a particular way.

This is a famous hadith that you can find in multiple sources because of how the Prophet answered Bourayda regarding Ali when he complained about him taking a woman from the khoms. So Ali was sent to get 20% of the booty which included women. Among them, the most beautiful woman called Wasifa. Anytime you read about someone coming out with his head sweating (see red text) it means sex was physically demanding! (recall when Hafsa busted the Prophet with his slave girl Maria, the same wording was used, it's in one of my earlier posts)
Okay, but I’m not seeing where the big deal is here. Taking war spoils was a very common practice in ancient times, and warriors- regardless of the culture or society— would engage in the experience. Women were not the “I’m independent and do what I want!” type that they are today. When their husbands died in war, the enemy combatants decided what happened to them. This is another reason why the institution of slavery existed. Remember, you’re dealing with ancient tribes here, not modern day nation-states! Again, the only real reason I think you and others (like our friend Ralph) have major problems with all this is because of your own preconceived notions/biases about women and sex.

Indeed, hip-hip artists are routinely boasting about the quality and quantity of the their female concubines. These people- despite their crude language and lack of modern education- are nevertheless more in tune with the realities of human existence than the Harvard grad with his silly degree in whatever subject. I suppose this is why female sex-workers tend to be more feminine than “normal” women, and the “bad-boys” are better at attracting them. In either cases, both groups are shamed and shunned by society, and that explains a lot....

Unfortunately, most men these days have placed females on a divine pedestal, perceiving her as some sort of symbol of perfection, which is probably why religions like Islam get a lot of flake when it comes to women. I don’t know about you, but Eve got us out of Paradise, and I’m keeping my eyes on her!

It is based on perception if you are your own god. If not, it is relative to the moral framework you adhere to which in our case is very different.

Or perhaps it’s both. If you knew and felt guilty about something, then you wouldn’t express and generate the same thought-patterns and mental processes that you would ordinarily exhibit if you had believed that you were doing something good. Ultimately, you judge from within. If you are going to let another party make you feel guilty about something, again, that’s on you. I do what I do, and only I would know if I was truly guilty, for as Allah says in the Quran, “man only wrongs his own soul.”

For instance, if I personally said that you are an alien from Mars, would that make any difference in regards to how you perceive your own identity? Likewise, it makes no difference whether one billion people believed someone to be a bad person, because as long as that person is in full harmony with the Truth, all their screams cannot break his will... unless he allows them to.

This is why public opinion is entirely irrelevant, and why you can only judge things from within your own self.

I am trying not to open too many doors so I will keep my replies brief. Why would the females internalize particular forms of dunya and not males? Having four wives doesn't have to be a big deal but having 8 wives or 4 husbands neither.

Certainly, the male does too, but for the female, it’s clearly on a higher dimensional magnitude. Otherwise, why would people like Mr. Hariri cough up $16 million dollars for one broad? Yes, women have enormous power over men in respect to sex and other forms of pleasure. They were mainly designed to make man feel good, and testament to this is their soft skin, delicate voice, and luscious body form.

But the system in place like mutah marriage and slavery is advantageous only to males and results in viewing your slave or partner as nothing more than commodity, ie meat. How does this reinforce the goal of righteousness?Indeed I think we are not seeing eye to eye because from my Christian perspective that there is a spiritual dimension to the unity between a man and woman, something you did not mention in your text as you focused on facilitating the lower animal instinct part of the act. Interesting discussion mate.

“Advantageous only to males”- again, this is a capricious judgment based on preconceived notions, and I think I’ve succinctly elaborated on this above. I didn’t mention the spiritual dimension because I think we’d be going way off tangent, and so that is why I’ve deliberately chosen to focus solely on the sensual pleasures.

In respect to righteousness, we need to understand that if humans don’t subscribe to a set of rules or regulations in their lives, and basically exist within a set of clearly outlined perimeters, they are at high risk of destroying themselves in this life and the next.

Why? Because if their sole focus is on the dunya, they will experience pain whenever they lose anything from it. For example, a man who has loved a woman for years will experience great pain if she left him. This is due to all the memories he had with her, for what is your mind and spiritual being but memories and experiences? Indeed, if a man’s soul was entirely attached to the dunya, the pain he will experience when his physical body deceases will be enormous. This is known as hell, and the Quran is a manual that essentially steers humanity away from such a fate. Indeed, the Prophet is but a warner.

Ergo, religious rules like “prayer 5 times a day” are there to help humans pull away from everything in the world and connect to their Creator. Even if a Muslim was only able to pray once a day, this act alone can save him from hell because when he has finally passed away, part of whatever energy or cosmic force that formed his identity would be clinging to The Almighty, Glorious is He, above the Heavens and Earth.

Henceforth, humans love sex, and Islam provides humanity with means like marriage, or mutah, or sexual intercourse within the institution of slavery (at least when slavery existed) so that humans can enjoy this pleasure without destroying themselves with it.

Let’s be honest with ourselves, there is no limit to human sexual depravity, and we’d all love to be in orgies with dozens of beautiful and naked women. Right? But alas, Allah is better than the world, and so we will have to limit ourselves because of our love for God. This is precisely why the Prophet said that this world is hell for the believers.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Nothing is evil in and of itself. “Rape”- this is just a word, a sound that comes out of a human’s mouth. It means nothing in terms of ascertaining the true moral resoluteness of an individual’s soul. Only God can do that. It’s like arguing that slavery is evil in of itself, and thus people like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were wicked and unscrupulous figures, when nothing is further from the truth.

This is where you are wrong my friend. Why? Because you answered yourself, Only God can do that.
Did God do that? Yes he did!
Didn't Allah mention in the Quran that he had also sent the Torah? Yes he did.
Does the Torah include laws on Rape because it is evil? Yes it does.

The only problem is that Allah forgot to reiterate these laws in the Quran.
Allah did not forget to mention that you can sleep with a woman from the back as well as from the front as long as you park in the right garage.
Allah did not forget to mention what the 3edda is (waiting period) after divorcing a girl that did not menstruate yet.
(Happy to provide you with the verses if you're interested)

This is called presentism, which is basically judging past events according to today’s standards and status quo. If one hundred years from now, people determined that YOU yourself were an immoral reprobate, based on the things that you do today (that you may take for granted), would they be correct in their assessment? More importantly, would it even matter what they said?

If you want to feel bad about about it, that’s on you. But you don’t need to cast your “feeling bad” on the parties involved just because it makes you feel a particular way.

That does not work, because Allah in the Quran mentioned many times that he sent books before the Quran with a moral code. So the point of reference is Allah's moral code, not presentism.

Okay, but I’m not seeing where the big deal is here. Taking war spoils was a very common practice in ancient times, and warriors- regardless of the culture or society— would engage in the experience. Women were not the “I’m independent and do what I want!” type that they are today. When their husbands died in war, the enemy combatants decided what happened to them. This is another reason why the institution of slavery existed. Remember, you’re dealing with ancient tribes here, not modern day nation-states! Again, the only real reason I think you and others (like our friend Ralph) have major problems with all this is because of your own preconceived notions/biases about women and sex.

If you don't see what the big deal is, I guess when it comes to ISIS, whatever they did is no big deal then.
My friend, we are not talking about Genghis Khan here, a godless conqueror that went with his own moral code.

We are talking about the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS, the best of creation, the shia even consider the Prophet and Ali created from light.
So playing the ancient tribes card in the context of Allah doesn't work because he always had a moral code.

So repeat after me: Mohamad and Ali and their companions were rapists.
(that's to say the least since we are talking about rape here only)

Indeed, hip-hip artists are routinely boasting about the quality and quantity of the their female concubines. These people- despite their crude language and lack of modern education- are nevertheless more in tune with the realities of human existence than the Harvard grad with his silly degree in whatever subject. I suppose this is why female sex-workers tend to be more feminine than “normal” women, and the “bad-boys” are better at attracting them. In either cases, both groups are shamed and shunned by society, and that explains a lot....

In the example of the hip hop artists, they are more in tune with their private parts than anything else. The realities of human existence are not limited to the sexual act only.


Unfortunately, most men these days have placed females on a divine pedestal, perceiving her as some sort of symbol of perfection, which is probably why religions like Islam get a lot of flake when it comes to women. I don’t know about you, but Eve got us out of Paradise, and I’m keeping my eyes on her!

My friend, Islam gets a lot of flak because it is totally off about women vis a vis men.

Or perhaps it’s both. If you knew and felt guilty about something, then you wouldn’t express and generate the same thought-patterns and mental processes that you would ordinarily exhibit if you had believed that you were doing something good. Ultimately, you judge from within. If you are going to let another party make you feel guilty about something, again, that’s on you. I do what I do, and only I would know if I was truly guilty, for as Allah says in the Quran, “man only wrongs his own soul.”

For instance, if I personally said that you are an alien from Mars, would that make any difference in regards to how you perceive your own identity? Likewise, it makes no difference whether one billion people believed someone to be a bad person, because as long as that person is in full harmony with the Truth, all their screams cannot break his will... unless he allows them to.

This is why public opinion is entirely irrelevant, and why you can only judge things from within your own self.
So it all comes down to The Truth, I will not address this in our current exchange. It'll come later for sure in another one.

Certainly, the male does too, but for the female, it’s clearly on a higher dimensional magnitude. Otherwise, why would people like Mr. Hariri cough up $16 million dollars for one broad? Yes, women have enormous power over men in respect to sex and other forms of pleasure. They were mainly designed to make man feel good, and testament to this is their soft skin, delicate voice, and luscious body form.

“Advantageous only to males”- again, this is a capricious judgment based on preconceived notions, and I think I’ve succinctly elaborated on this above. I didn’t mention the spiritual dimension because I think we’d be going way off tangent, and so that is why I’ve deliberately chosen to focus solely on the sensual pleasures.

Mr. Hariri is an idiot, there are a lot of idiots like him in the world. Men also yield power in respect to sex and pleasure.
My advantageous only to males comment stands, if you read the Quran, you will understand what I am talking about.


In respect to righteousness, we need to understand that if humans don’t subscribe to a set of rules or regulations in their lives, and basically exist within a set of clearly outlined perimeters, they are at high risk of destroying themselves in this life and the next.

Why? Because if their sole focus is on the dunya, they will experience pain whenever they lose anything from it. For example, a man who has loved a woman for years will experience great pain if she left him. This is due to all the memories he had with her, for what is your mind and spiritual being but memories and experiences? Indeed, if a man’s soul was entirely attached to the dunya, the pain he will experience when his physical body deceases will be enormous. This is known as hell, and the Quran is a manual that essentially steers humanity away from such a fate. Indeed, the Prophet is but a warner.
What righteousness my friend? did you miss what Ali said?
قال عليّ رضي الله عنه: لولا أن عمر رضي الله عنه نهى عن المتعة ما زنى إلا شقّى
Only an idiot would've committed Zina if it wasn't for Omar disallowing Mutaa.
(who is omar anyways to abrogate the laws of Allah in the Quran?)

What more focus on dunya do you want when your lowest animal instinct is attended to with a promise of a magnified experience in heaven? Marry 3 or 4, own slaves or run through 100 temporary marriages. How can one destroy himself with a playground like this?

Ergo, religious rules like “prayer 5 times a day” are there to help humans pull away from everything in the world and connect to their Creator. Even if a Muslim was only able to pray once a day, this act alone can save him from hell because when he has finally passed away, part of whatever energy or cosmic force that formed his identity would be clinging to The Almighty, Glorious is He, above the Heavens and Earth.

Henceforth, humans love sex, and Islam provides humanity with means like marriage, or mutah, or sexual intercourse within the institution of slavery (at least when slavery existed) so that humans can enjoy this pleasure without destroying themselves with it.

Let’s be honest with ourselves, there is no limit to human sexual depravity, and we’d all love to be in orgies with dozens of beautiful and naked women. Right? But alas, Allah is better than the world, and so we will have to limit ourselves because of our love for God. This is precisely why the Prophet said that this world is hell for the believers.
It looks like you're projecting for yourself sir ;)
What's the median sexual duration? 10 minutes? Orgies are overrated lol

I also don't see how the prophet or his companions were limiting themselves to the love of God given with how busy they were with dunya stuff.
Let me prove it to you in my upcoming posts....
 

NewLeb

Member
This is where you are wrong my friend. Why? Because you answered yourself, Only God can do that.
Did God do that? Yes he did!
Didn't Allah mention in the Quran that he had also sent the Torah? Yes he did.
Does the Torah include laws on Rape because it is evil? Yes it does.

Sorry, my friend, but our conceptions of God are completely different. Allah is not a god, like what Christians consider Jesus to be. No, Allah is higher than that- He is the only Reality, the only Truth, the only real existence. He is the First, and the Last, and the only One. However, this opens a new door entirely....

The only problem is that Allah forgot to reiterate these laws in the Quran.
Allah did not forget to mention that you can sleep with a woman from the back as well as from the front as long as you park in the right garage.

Lol, and who are you exactly to claim that Allah did right or wrong? Sorry, bud, but this whole act about trying to make the other party feel guilty is not going to work here. If you really need Allah to tell you not to violent bang some random woman on the streets without her will, then you clearly have a problem.

This is just another attempt by Christians to look for any possible thing they can attack Islam with. As the Quran says, there is a disease in their hearts....

Allah did not forget to mention what the 3edda is (waiting period) after divorcing a girl that did not menstruate yet.
(Happy to provide you with the verses if you're interested)

I could care less. Interesting however that, yet again, you bring up something sexually related. These issues seem to be within your own psychosis, and you’re attacking Islam to make yourself feel better....

That does not work, because Allah in the Quran mentioned many times that he sent books before the Quran with a moral code. So the point of reference is Allah's moral code, not presentism.

But we’re not discussing those former and corrupt books. Those books are completely irrelevant, as they weren’t meant for all of humanity and all times, nor are they the words of God, verbatim.

Indeed, one reason that the Torah has stringent laws in regards to Jewish men is because that they tend to have demanding and insatiable sex drives, which explains things like Jeffery Epstein and Roman Polanski. It has nothing to do with “moral codes” that Allah sent (an idea that you pretty much made up), but another example of God recommending to man certain limits on himself so that the dunya won’t destroy him.

If you don't see what the big deal is, I guess when it comes to ISIS, whatever they did is no big deal then.
My friend, we are not talking about Genghis Khan here, a godless conqueror that went with his own moral code.

I wouldn’t know, as I’m not knowledgable on the hearts of men. ISIS feel that it’s necessary to bring back slavery. Good for them, but they’re clearly they're too stupid to see that slavery has become obsolete in these modern times, and Islam only has regulations regarding its operation. Islam doesn’t consider slavery to be bad or good. It simply is what is, and how you deal with it is a reflection of your own self.

We are talking about the SEAL OF THE PROPHETS, the best of creation, the shia even consider the Prophet and Ali created from light.
So playing the ancient tribes card in the context of Allah doesn't work because he always had a moral code.

Huh-huh, and what exactly does your constant use of the phrase “moral code” have to do with this issue? Slavery was not forbidden, and the Muslims took slaves and had sex with them. If that makes you feel icky and sad, what can I say, throw some holy water on yourself or something. We’re not going to be sorry just because another insecure Christian (yet again) feels bad about something....

It’s must be really easy being you guys, given that Jesus was a virgin who never held a political or military post. All you have to do is point at the Muslims and Jews and say “evil!” Alas....

So repeat after me: Mohamad and Ali and their companions were rapists.
(that's to say the least since we are talking about rape here only)

Lol, suck a lemon.

In the example of the hip hop artists, they are more in tune with their private parts than anything else. The realities of human existence are not limited to the sexual act only.

No one argued otherwise.

My friend, Islam gets a lot of flak because it is totally off about women vis a vis men.

No, I’d say that it’s the modern world that is completely off. It makes sense, given that most males today are raised by their mothers, which is why they grow up to be fat sissies just like them. All the real men either died in the great wars or are currently in prison, and now we’re all left with incompetent assholes and self-righteous Jesus-freaks. Tell me when it’s all over. ;)

Mr. Hariri is an idiot, there are a lot of idiots like him in the world. Men also yield power in respect to sex and pleasure.

Oh, come now, it isn’t anywhere near that of women, and you know it.


What more focus on dunya do you want when your lowest animal instinct is attended to with a promise of a magnified experience in heaven? Marry 3 or 4, own slaves or run through 100 temporary marriages. How can one destroy himself with a playground like this?

Run through 100 temporary marriages? Dude, if you can’t handle 4 women, then as Allah recommends in the Qur'an, stick to one. You’re clearly making issues out of nothing now.

What's the median sexual duration? 10 minutes? Orgies are overrated lol

I also don't see how the prophet or his companions were limiting themselves to the love of God given with how busy they were with dunya stuff.
Let me prove it to you in my upcoming posts....

How exactly would you know, given that the only things you guys seem to bring up when it comes to Islam is either sex or violence. Otherwise, you’d know that the Prophet stood for hours until his feet became bruised asking God for forgiveness; and that when he died, he owned nothing, given that he gave everything away to charity.

As I argued before, Islam is a reflection of mankind, and Western Christianity’s obsession with sex and violence says a lot more about itself than Muslims.
 
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