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Deep into Islam..

NewLeb

Member
Sure thing my friend, this is what you initially said:

From an Islamically mystical point of view, the Bible and Torah are corrupt

An Islamic point of view is naturally anchored in the Quran, please provide me with the basis of your argument so that we can advance.

Whoa, whoa, whoa- slow down a bit, sonny. By “Islamically mystical point of view,” I obviously mean a Sufi perspective of things, as that is how I classify my own self and views (and the Sufi masters that which I borrowed most of my learnings from).

The basis of my argument is mostly concerned with how the Quruan was revealed and compiled, as opposed to how it was in the cases of the Torah and Bible. Thus, this subject is more rooted in secular history than in the theological commands found in the holy book itself.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
تفسير القرطبي - القرطبي - ج ١٤ - الصفحة ١٨٩

وفي بعض الروايات: أن زيدا تورم ذلك منه حين أراد أن يقربها، فهذا قريب من ذلك. وجاء زيد إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: إن زينب تؤذيني بلسانها وتفعل وتفعل! وإني أريد أن أطلقها
 

Totenkopf

New Member
Whoa, whoa, whoa- slow down a bit, sonny. By “Islamically mystical point of view,” I obviously mean a Sufi perspective of things, as that is how I classify my own self and views (and the Sufi masters that which I borrowed most of my learnings from).

The basis of my argument is mostly concerned with how the Quruan was revealed and compiled, as opposed to how it was in the cases of the Torah and Bible. Thus, this subject is more rooted in secular history than in the theological commands found in the holy book itself.
Sorry my friend I had no idea you were Sufi. Forgive me for asking, is this the equivalent of jeovah's witnesses in Christianity? ie a small outshoot that no one considers valid. Please do NOT feel insulted by my question, I don't know anything about Sufism.

I am more interested in a Quranic based discussion, as such, we are not on common ground to proceed.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
تفسير القرطبي - القرطبي - ج ١٤ - الصفحة ١٨٩

وفي بعض الروايات: أن زيدا تورم ذلك منه حين أراد أن يقربها، فهذا قريب من ذلك. وجاء زيد إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: إن زينب تؤذيني بلسانها وتفعل وتفعل! وإني أريد أن أطلقها
1. This is not at all what you wrote.
2. This is only an 2il and 2al with no sanad and with no importance.
3. Try to be objective neutral and above all respectful.
 

Totenkopf

New Member
1. This is not at all what you wrote.
2. This is only an 2il and 2al with no sanad and with no importance.
3. Try to be objective neutral and above all respectful.
All of what I wrote can be read, it's on the forum.
What I quoted says exactly that, I did not invent this, I did not corrupt words, I simply translated and I did not find a lot of sense in this particular incident. Hence my tone.

See, it did not cost you anything to reply: no sanad and no importance. Thank you.

If you reread what I wrote, this was only a side shoot and not the heart of the story where I listed all the facts based on primary sources.
 

NewLeb

Member
Sorry my friend I had no idea you were Sufi. Forgive me for asking, is this the equivalent of jeovah's witnesses in Christianity? ie a small outshoot that no one considers valid. Please do NOT feel insulted by my question, I don't know anything about Sufism.

I am more interested in a Quranic based discussion, as such, we are not on common ground to proceed.

No, Sufism is not a sect. It is an experience that explores the mystical and inner dimensions of Islam, and thus very much related to this subject.

Christianity (particularly Catholicism) lacks mysticism, which is why Western Europeans have always been looking to the East for spiritual comfort....

Historically, Sufis have often belonged to different ṭuruq or "orders" – congregations formed around a grand master referred to as a wali who traces a direct chain of successive teachers back to the Islamic prophet Muhammad.[10] These orders meet for spiritual sessions (majalis) in meeting places known as zawiyas, khanqahs or tekke.[11] They strive for ihsan (perfection of worship), as detailed in a hadith: "Ihsan is to worship Allah as if you see Him; if you can't see Him, surely He sees you."[12] Sufis regard Muhammad as al-Insān al-Kāmil, the primary perfect man who exemplifies the morality of God,[13]and see him as their leader and prime spiritual guide.
 
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Totenkopf

New Member
No, Sufism is not a sect. It is an experience that explores the mystical and inner dimensions of Islam, and thus very much related to this subject.

Christianity (particularly Catholicism) lacks mysticism, which is why Western Europeans have always been looking to the East for spiritual comfort....
Thanks for clarifying Newleb. If I am not mistaken, people like ISIS do consider this approach heretical...
No comment on Christianity, wrong thread for that.

@Rafidi @agnostic
Why doesn't Moe have any pictures? Is it because he's so ugly?

According to scholars like this one, the prophet was missing 4 frontal teeth, he lost them in the battle of uhud:
* تفسير الجامع لاحكام القرآن/ القرطبي (ت 671 هـ) مصنف و مدقق
ثبت في صحيح مسلم: أن النبيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كُسِرت رَباعِيته يوم أُحُد، وشُجّ في رأسه

You can find it when you look at the tafsir for this verse:
[3:128]
لَيْسَ لَكَ مِنَ الْأَمْرِ شَيْءٌ أَوْ يَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِمْ أَوْ يُعَذِّبَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ

Maybe this was part of the reason? الله أعلم
 

Abotareq93

Legendary Member
Thanks for clarifying Newleb. If I am not mistaken, people like ISIS do consider this approach heretical...
No comment on Christianity, wrong thread for that.



According to scholars like this one, the prophet was missing 4 frontal teeth, he lost them in the battle of uhud:
* تفسير الجامع لاحكام القرآن/ القرطبي (ت 671 هـ) مصنف و مدقق
ثبت في صحيح مسلم: أن النبيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كُسِرت رَباعِيته يوم أُحُد، وشُجّ في رأسه

You can find it when you look at the tafsir for this verse:
[3:128]
لَيْسَ لَكَ مِنَ الْأَمْرِ شَيْءٌ أَوْ يَتُوبَ عَلَيْهِمْ أَوْ يُعَذِّبَهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ ظَالِمُونَ

Maybe this was part of the reason? الله أعلم
الرباعية is the lateral incisor, it's one tooth not 4.
 

Thoma

New Member
after a teacher in a predominantly immigrant suburb of paris shows caricatural pictures of mohammed to his classroom to debate freedom of expression, he gets decapitated by an 18 year old chechen islamist on friday 16th october


@agnostic @Rafidi @elAshtar @Weezy @O Brother , is this justified in Islam?
 

NewLeb

Member
Thanks for clarifying Newleb. If I am not mistaken, people like ISIS do consider this approach heretical...
No comment on Christianity, wrong thread for that.

ISIS play their own part in the universe, just like the Christians do.
 
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GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
This is a bait question by the resident evangelist, but I’ll take it anyway.

People who put their hand in the fire get hurt.

People who luckily lampoon the Prophet also get get hurt.

Is there a real difference between the two?

You're a disgrace to Trump supporters.
 

Thoma

New Member
This is a bait question by the resident evangelist, but I’ll take it anyway.

People who put their hand in the fire get hurt.

People who luckily lampoon the Prophet also get get hurt.

Is there a real difference between the two?

So you are admitting that it is justified in Islam, but then you are fecklessly attempting to justify that answer using the 'playing with fire' analogy. And this attempt fails of course. The 'getting hurt playing with fire' characteristic doesn't in itself determine the in/validity of an act or of its counter-act. Any risky job can be framed as 'playing with fire' and involve getting hurt as a result, say such as that of cops defending society against theft and murder; does their task in principle having the characteristic of 'playing with fire and often getting hurt as a result' invalidate their task and justify opposing it and hurting (killing) cops? Thus, drawing a caricature of the prophet of Islam is a risky endeavor, but it being risky by itself doesn't justify opposing it much less murdering the cartoonist.
 

agnostic

Legendary Member
Thank you bro for admitting my leadership position over @Rafidi and @elAshtar.

About the teenager Chechen who lately killed a teacher in Paris suburbs, first of all Allah yer7amon tnanineton, they died for an awful question of Me7n stupido.

About the Islamic Legal POV on this dramatic and regrettable event, give me some time and I'll answer you, in case the others don't answer.

But to make you analyze the question, is it justified in Christian religion that a teacher shows to his 12-15 years old classroom porno blasphemous sketches?
 

NewLeb

Member
So you are admitting that it is justified in Islam, but then you are fecklessly attempting to justify that answer using the 'playing with fire' analogy. And this attempt fails of course. The 'getting hurt playing with fire' characteristic doesn't in itself determine the in/validity of an act or of its counter-act. Any risky job can be framed as 'playing with fire' and involve getting hurt as a result, say such as that of cops defending society against theft and murder; does their task in principle having the characteristic of 'playing with fire and often getting hurt as a result' invalidate their task and justify opposing it and hurting (killing) cops? Thus, drawing a caricature of the prophet of Islam is a risky endeavor, but it being risky by itself doesn't justify opposing it much less murdering the cartoonist.

I’m not justifying anything. I think people should do whatever they please, just so long as they don’t get into my own territory.

The point is that whatever you do, know that it will have effects, sometimes on a level and dimension that you may never have thought otherwise.

This is the same reason why I wouldn’t want to “mess around” with artifacts that the Catholic Church may hold in high spiritual esteem; or get on the wrong side of Native American witchcraft. I recognize the supernatural forces in those objects- no, I do not discriminate.

However, Europeans and Western Christendom don’t seem to understand that this also extends to Islam and the Prophet. Indeed, you guys may believe him to be a charlatan; a pimp; a blood-thirsty mad-man trying to convert everyone to his crazy moon religion, but again, that’s what you believe. It has no bearing on Reality, however, hence why cartoonists keep finding themselves hacked to death.

Ergo, when a cartoonist publicly denigrates the Prophet in the most heinous of ways, he’s basically trying to prove a point. It’s his idea about the Prophet VS Reality.

Reality always wins!
 
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