• Before posting an article from a specific source, check this list here to see how much the Orange Room trust it. You can also vote/change your vote based on the source track record.

Deep into Islam..

SeaAb

Legendary Member
Staff member
Super Penguin
Pshhhh :cigar:
EsCw3YxXcAcyiSn
 

Weezy

Legendary Member
@agnostic my friend and brother in islam there's something that really confuses me, why do shia say Ya Ali and Ya Hussein?

it falls under shirk bro, we should only seek refuge in Allah.. some ignorant sunnis started saying ya Omar to immitate , this is also shirk

 
"The majority of traditional sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six or seven, but she stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, or ten according to Ibn Hisham, when the marriage was consummated with Muhammad, then 53, in Medina."


giphy.gif
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
That is not true. The traditions that claim she was 6 or 8, all go back to one source: Aisha herself. All the remaining traditions and historical materials all disprove that attempt to babysize Aisha, irrespective of the fact that the age of consent was low back then; but in this particular case, she was not what she claimed to be (if we are to presume the narration citing her as the source for the claim is genuine and was not fabricated by the Umayyads or laterwards). I will present you with the facts my my subsequent posts. I didn't respond on time because I'm tired of this boring topic, honestly.

@Orangina

Abubakr (A'isha's father) had Asma as his first child who was born 27years before Hijra. Aisha was the last born and history had it she was 10years younger to her eldest sister, Asma.

Asma died at the age of 100 years in the 73rd year of Hijra. Meaning she was truly 27+years in the 1st year of Hijra. Same History however had it A'isha married the Prophet in the 2nd year of Hijra.

If Asma was 27years in the 1st year of Hijra, and was 10years older than Aisha and then A'isha got married to the holy prophet in the 2nd year of Hijra, how old was A'isha?

18- 19years.

+++++++++++++

The popular version of ‘Ãisha’s youth age has been exploited by the anti-Islamic groups to attack the Prophet “for marrying a child”. The fact of the matter is that Lady ‘Ãisha was not a child when she was married in 2 AH to the Prophet. At-Tabari, the famous Muslim historian, writes that Abu Bakr’s first two wives and their children were all born in the pre-Islamic era. (Ta’rīkh at-Tabari, vol. 2 [Beirut: al-A‘lami, n.d.] p. 616.) Based on this, even if she was born a year before the commencement of Islam, ‘Ãisha would be 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage to the Prophet – an age in which marriage is common in most cultures. Ibn Kathīr, in his al-Bidãyah wa ’n-Nihãyah (vol. 8, p. 381) states that Asmã’ bint Abu Bakr, the sister of ‘Ãisha, was ten years older than ‘Ãisha. He also reports that Asmã’ died in the year 73 AH at the age of 100. Based on this calculation, ‘Ãisha was 18 or 19 years old at the time of her marriage.

@Orangina

When did Aisha convert to Islam? See link below for references. If she had converted when she was at 7 years old (two years before a girl's puberty or what is referred to as taklif or the least age of maturity upon which a girl becomes religiously obligated) , in the first year of the Prophet's mission or 13 years before hijrah, and she then married the Prophet in the second century hijrah, Aisha's age was :

7+13+2 = 22 years old.

According to another historical source, she was married to the Prophet in the 4th year after hijrah.

7 + 13 + 4 = 24 years old.

7 years at the time of conversation we assume was age least age.

The Prophet spent 13 years in Makkah preaching before the Hijrah to Medina.

The Prophet wedded Aisha either the second or fourth year after the hijrah.

For more details and historical references, see source:


@Orangina

If Aisha was really "underage" based on modern standards, I wont be insulted. After all, early marriages were common place in the past. Mary (as), the mother of Jesus was reported to have been betrothed to Josseph the carpenter a 90 year old man, when she was just 12 years old. But based on historical facts, Aisha was not "underage" even by modern standards. Aisha had already been given in marriage to another man called Jubayr Ibb Mut'em before her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad (s). But many dont know the facts. I am more offended by the misrepresentation of facts, which is exploited, than by what was her age. In fact, even the word "pedophilia" or "pediphile" came into use less than 100 years ago. If you open any dictionary before 100 years ago, that word is not found. It did not exist.

The reasons Sunnis, mostly, cling on to those narrations with an isolated source that portrays Aisha as very tender when the Prophet married her are for two:
1. To whitewash her image after her atrocities in the battle of jamal against Imam Ali and Shia hatred for her.

2. To portray her as the favourite wife of the Prophet, and an authority in Islam therefore, even though she had admitted Sayyida Khadija, who is very much revered by Shia, to have been the wife most honoured by the Prophet even after her death, Sunnis portray her as the favourite wife.

I will leave you with this short lecture on this in two parts:



The same law which you refer to as "sharia law" is present in the United States.


There is an example in the above link of a Christian community compelling a 12 year old girl to marry her 19 year old boyfriend. And the law doesnt stop them. In the first place, is it right for a 19 year old boy to have a 12 year old girlfriend? I think not. What does 12 year today know about boyfriends or marriage? We have passed the age where women had high mortality rate and they have to be rushed to produce children before they die to keep humanity alive and provide labourers ti serve the villages.

Over the centuries the age of marriage was really down for various reasons. Islam stipulates that mental, and physical maturity are to judge whether someone is fit for marriage. This can vary from person to person even of the same age. One 17 year old may be more mature than a 20 year old. And a 15 year old may be more mature than another 17 year old.

So as time progressed, we can assess mental and physical, and even emotional maturity differently and more precisely and our standards on maturity have progressed. Therefore you cant use the standards of the past to judge on this issue of maturity in regards to marriage. Also, since times have changed, a child who starts class 1 at the age of 4 needs another 12 years to finish high school and another 4 to finish university. We are talking of a supposed mental maturity at age 20. Even that is not an exact or solid assessment of maturity. Someone at 20 may still not be mature enough or ready for marriage and someone below 20 could be mature. It varies per individual basis.

So really, there is no problem for Muslims to increase the bar when it comes to age of marriage. Muslims generally do not tolerate sex outside marriage, so there is this urge for sex to happen within marriage and for people to marry early. But still, chastity can be maintained even if marriage doesnt happen early. There is no guaranty that marriage is a remedy for someone not to have sex outside marriage. You can still be married and have sex out of wedlock. That is even more reason why maturity and sex education today are important. The reason there are Muslim countries where the age of marriage is 18. And you find another country where the age is 13 with parental permission. Then you find old men using power, money and influence to exploit teenagers. I call it exploitation because times have changed. And these examples of exploitation are covered with religious justification and are then used to paint Muslims and Islam with a certain negative image. Also, if a 12 year old gets married in the US today, and it still happens, and another 12 year old gets married in Iran or Saudi Arabia, it is more likely the one in the Muslim country will get more media attention and publicity than the marriage of a 12 year old in the US.

@Tiger_Lebanon

Check the above posts
 
@Tiger_Lebanon

Check the above posts

كلّ واحد عدينه الله يعينه. انا ما بحب فوت بهل مواضيع بس فتت على ثريد الدين المسيحي و في بوستات استفزازيّة بحقّ ديني من قبل أعضاء مسلمين بل فوروم و انت مننّ

يلّي بيحترم ديني بحترم دينه, و يلي بدّه يستفزّني يشوف بيتو الدّاخلي قبل ما يحكي عن أديان غيره

و السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته​
 

The_FPMer

Well-Known Member
كلّ واحد عدينه الله يعينه. انا ما بحب فوت بهل مواضيع بس فتت على ثريد الدين المسيحي و في بوستات استفزازيّة بحقّ ديني من قبل أعضاء مسلمين بل فوروم و انت مننّ

يلّي بيحترم ديني بحترم دينه, و يلي بدّه يستفزّني يشوف بيتو الدّاخلي قبل ما يحكي عن أديان غيره

و السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته​
Fight silliness with rationality by replying with constructive counter-arguments, and not with silliness.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
كلّ واحد عدينه الله يعينه. انا ما بحب فوت بهل مواضيع بس فتت على ثريد الدين المسيحي و في بوستات استفزازيّة بحقّ ديني من قبل أعضاء مسلمين بل فوروم و انت مننّ

يلّي بيحترم ديني بحترم دينه, و يلي بدّه يستفزّني يشوف بيتو الدّاخلي قبل ما يحكي عن أديان غيره

و السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته​

@SeaAb i can reply him. But I want you to do that on my behalf.
 
@SeaAb i can reply him. But I want you to do that on my behalf.

لاء عادي احكي. أنا بقول الإشيا بلا لفّ و دوران و من الواضح انّه بوستاتك بثريد الدين المسيحي فيهن حقد على اديان الغير و مسخرة و تحرتق. مثلاً​


Miraculous births or births through BBC?

Catholic Church investigating two nuns who returned pregnant after missionary trip to Africa​


وهاو بس من آخر صفحة

موش علينا هل حركات القرعة​
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
لاء عادي احكي. أنا بقول الإشيا بلا لفّ و دوران و من الواضح انّه بوستاتك بثريد الدين المسيحي فيهن حقد على اديان الغير و مسخرة و تحرتق. مثلاً




وهاو بس من آخر صفحة

موش علينا هل حركات القرعة​

This thread on Islam is 577 pages and counting. Most of it is attacks by non Muslims, mockery and insults. And you come here shedding crocodile tears about your faith in the other thread being mocked. This is very funny.
 
This thread on Islam is 577 pages and counting. Most of it is attacks by non Muslims, mockery and insults. And you come here shedding crocodile tears about your faith in the other thread being mocked. This is very funny.

بلا كروكوديل بلا بطاطا. بوصطاطك بثريد الدّين المسيحي مهينين لديني و يلّي بدو يهن مقدّساتي بدّي عامله بالمثل​
 

Totenkopf

New Member
@Tiger_Lebanon

Check the above posts

@Rafidi bro ma badda hal ad ossit Aisha because the Quran allows child marriage

65:4
٤ وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ۚ وَأُولَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَنْ يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

4 As for your women who have lost hope of menstruation, and in case you have a doubt, the prescribed period (of waiting) for them is three months, as also for those who have not menstruated yet. As for those who are pregnant, their prescribed period is until the delivery of the child. God will make things easy for him who is mindful of God.

تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القرآن/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

واللائي لم يحضن هنّ الأبكار التي لم يحضن، فعدتهنّ ثلاثة أشهر. حُدثت عن الحسين، قال: سمعت أبا معاذ يقول: ثنا عبيد، قال: سمعت الضحاك يقول في قوله: { وَاللاَّئِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ المَحِيضِ... } الآية، قال: القواعد من النساء { واللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ }: لم يبلغن المحيض، وقد مُسِسْن، عدتهنّ ثلاثة

تفسير تفسير القرآن العظيم/ ابن كثير (ت 774 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

يقول تعالى مبينا لعدة الآيسة - وهي التي قد انقطع عنها الحيض لكبرها - : أنها ثلاثة أشهر ، عوضا عن الثلاثة قروء في حق من تحيض ، كما دلت على ذلك آية " البقرة " وكذا الصغار اللائي لم يبلغن سن الحيض أن عدتهن كعدة الآيسة ثلاثة أشهر ; ولهذا قال : ( واللائي لم يحضن )

I will not go into the differences of what the shia or sunni allow on the little girl in terms of marital relations because it is of no consequence to this disordered behavior.

Also I have a big favor to ask you for my personal notes, can you please provide references (links NOT VIDEOS) to the all the claims you made about Aisha?

I don't know if your position is personal or a shia one because the sunnis all agree that she was wed at 6 and it was consummated at 9 wallahu a3lam!
فأما الرواية الأولى فمتفق عليها أي رواها البخاري ومسلم عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت: تزوجني النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأنا بنت ست سنين وبنى بي وأنا بنت تسع سنين. وهي رواية الأكثرين. وأما الرواية الأخرى فقد رواها مسلم في صحيحه عن عائشة رضي الله عنها: أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم تزوجها وهى بنت سبع سنين وزفت إليه وهى بنت تسع سنين ولعبها معها ومات عنها وهى بنت ثمان عشرة.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
@Rafidi bro ma badda hal ad ossit Aisha because the Quran allows child marriage

65:4
٤ وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ۚ وَأُولَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَنْ يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ ۚ وَمَنْ يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

4 As for your women who have lost hope of menstruation, and in case you have a doubt, the prescribed period (of waiting) for them is three months, as also for those who have not menstruated yet. As for those who are pregnant, their prescribed period is until the delivery of the child. God will make things easy for him who is mindful of God.

تفسير جامع البيان في تفسير القرآن/ الطبري (ت 310 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

واللائي لم يحضن هنّ الأبكار التي لم يحضن، فعدتهنّ ثلاثة أشهر. حُدثت عن الحسين، قال: سمعت أبا معاذ يقول: ثنا عبيد، قال: سمعت الضحاك يقول في قوله: { وَاللاَّئِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ المَحِيضِ... } الآية، قال: القواعد من النساء { واللاَّئِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ }: لم يبلغن المحيض، وقد مُسِسْن، عدتهنّ ثلاثة

تفسير تفسير القرآن العظيم/ ابن كثير (ت 774 هـ) مصنف و مدقق

يقول تعالى مبينا لعدة الآيسة - وهي التي قد انقطع عنها الحيض لكبرها - : أنها ثلاثة أشهر ، عوضا عن الثلاثة قروء في حق من تحيض ، كما دلت على ذلك آية " البقرة " وكذا الصغار اللائي لم يبلغن سن الحيض أن عدتهن كعدة الآيسة ثلاثة أشهر ; ولهذا قال : ( واللائي لم يحضن )

I will not go into the differences of what the shia or sunni allow on the little girl in terms of marital relations because it is of no consequence to this disordered behavior.

The above verse in regards to females who have not menstruated refers to women with some sort of biological disorder causing ammennorhea (absence of menses) despite otherwise attaining the signs of puberty. This is a medical condition of some females.

Otherwise, it is generally accepted that a girl can only get married when she is physically and mentally mature. Physical maturity is widely believed to come at puberty. And one of the signs of puberty for girls is menstruation. Anything other than these can refer to betrothal and not marriage, on which the above verse does not relate.

Also I have a big favor to ask you for my personal notes, can you please provide references (links NOT VIDEOS) to the all the claims you made about Aisha?

Check the posts i earlier brought out for Tiger. Some references are there. Also, the videos of the Sayyid contain references. You can check them if you need them for your personal notes.

I don't know if your position is personal or a shia one because the sunnis all agree that she was wed at 6 and it was consummated at 9 wallahu a3lam!
فأما الرواية الأولى فمتفق عليها أي رواها البخاري ومسلم عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت: تزوجني النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأنا بنت ست سنين وبنى بي وأنا بنت تسع سنين. وهي رواية الأكثرين. وأما الرواية الأخرى فقد رواها مسلم في صحيحه عن عائشة رضي الله عنها: أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم تزوجها وهى بنت سبع سنين وزفت إليه وهى بنت تسع سنين ولعبها معها ومات عنها وهى بنت ثمان عشرة.

It is a Shia belief and based on Sunni references that Aisha was:

1. Not 6 or 9 but way older
2. She was already given in marrriage to another man, Jubayr Ibn Mot'em before the Prophet. Her father had to divorce her to enable her to marry the Prophet (s).
 

Totenkopf

New Member
The above verse in regards to females who have not menstruated refers to women with some sort of biological disorder causing ammennorhea (absence of menses) despite otherwise attaining the signs of puberty. This is a medical condition of some females.

Otherwise, it is generally accepted that a girl can only get married when she is physically and mentally mature. Physical maturity is widely believed to come at puberty. And one of the signs of puberty for girls is menstruation. Anything other than these can refer to betrothal and not marriage, on which the above verse does not relate.

My friend this is not true, the Quran and the tafsir are clear. Are you denying it because you do not recognize Al Tabari and Ibn Kathir?

Did you forget the famous quote from Khomeini?
مسألة 12: لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين، دواماً كان النكاح أو منقطعاً، وأما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة والضم والتفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى في الرضيعة.

And according to this Sayyed سنّ الزواج
1- ليس للزواج سنّ معين في الشريعة الاسلامية، فيصح إجراء عقد الزواج حتى للرضيع أو الرضيعة، كما يصح بالنسبة للمسنّ مهما تقدم به العمر رجلاً كان أو امرأة.

2- واذا كان يصح تزويج الصغيرة لكن وطأها لا يجوز قبل ان تكمل التاسعة من عمرها أما سائر الاستمتاعات غير الوطء فهي جائزة. كما ورد في صحيحة الحلبي عن الإمام جعفر الصادق
a2.gif
قال: «اذا تزوج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»[1]

It seems you are not in sync with your own religion in this issue.
 

Rafidi

Legendary Member
My friend this is not true, the Quran and the tafsir are clear. Are you denying it because you do not recognize Al Tabari and Ibn Kathir?

You are is still talking on verse 65:4 in the above. I have given you an interpretation and my answer has not and will not change on it.

Tafsir is not Quran and it is largely based on Hadith and also the opinion and rulings of the interpreters or scholars.

I have given you a tafsir which makes it clear that there are women who actually dont menstruate both immediately after puberty for some health reasons or after menopuse.

Did you forget the famous quote from Khomeini?
مسألة 12: لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين، دواماً كان النكاح أو منقطعاً، وأما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة والضم والتفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى في الرضيعة.

And according to this Sayyed سنّ الزواج
1- ليس للزواج سنّ معين في الشريعة الاسلامية، فيصح إجراء عقد الزواج حتى للرضيع أو الرضيعة، كما يصح بالنسبة للمسنّ مهما تقدم به العمر رجلاً كان أو امرأة.

Conducting marriage contract is not limited to age if certain conditions are met, including the agreement of the parents or the guardians of the female. Islam has not given a number or age for humans to marry. Islam has given conditions to be met. Therefore, whatever situation arises would solely be on the responsibility of those involved and their interpretation of the situation. Islam will prohibit marriage at 11 if that is proven to be harmful and Islam can go as far as forbidding marriage altogether if it carries danger, risks or harm to either of the partners. With such an open approach, whatever opinions, rulings that are derived, they are the properties of those who passed the opinions and rulings and not of the religion itself.

This is one issue, which even scholars differ on, as you can see below.

The above explanation is on the permissibility of conducting a marriage contract. Islam does not set an age.

Actually engaging in sexual acts is another issue entirely. On this, Islam has a say. The girl must be physically and mentally mature, and must have been given into marriage by her parents or guardians. Physical and mental maturity are open to interpretation. This is the reason Islamic countries do not have a uniform age of consent. This is left for us to determine. And if that which is determined by us carries harm, we are the ones to blame. Apparently you are mixing the two issues to "uglify" the scenario and also "vilify" the religion entirely, which is not honest, even though you try to present yourself as an honest seeker of truth.

2- واذا كان يصح تزويج الصغيرة لكن وطأها لا يجوز قبل ان تكمل التاسعة من عمرها أما سائر الاستمتاعات غير الوطء فهي جائزة. كما ورد في صحيحة الحلبي عن الإمام جعفر الصادق
a2.gif
قال: «اذا تزوج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»[1]

It seems you are not in sync with your own religion in this issue.

Now you are moving into the opinions and rulings of scholars or what is attributed to them. I am not obliged to accept such opinions even if they do exist in the sense and meaning you are relaying them. The religion does not oblige me as a father to give my 9 years old daughter in marriage, if I do not agree she is physically and mentally mature for it. This is not an obligatory act we are talking about. Therefore the judgment and condemnation here is upon the scholars and guardians and not the doctrines of the religion itself, but their interpreters. And even such opinions or rulings, which may seem at face value as giving permissibility are not fixed but flexible topics and subject to certain conditions that do not actually promote child abuse. In other words these opinions do not legalize or make the issue of sexual gratification with a betrothed child prevalent or obligatory, but in the event certain acts happen, without the intention to carry out sexual acts on the child, they do not fall under prohibition or haram. They are precautionary rulings and rulings based on the possibility that certain acts may occur, as you can see from the below screenshot explaining the fatwa of Imam Khomeini. At one instance, a fabricated event regarding a child has been attributed to the Imam. In this light, some fabrications have been done and attributed to scholars which do not exist. A male is not allowed to come into contact with a female by touching her. If she is betrothed to you, with the approval of her father, you can clean her, wipe her, wash her etc. even if you are sick enough to derive pleasure from doing so. These are acts normally done by adults to children and which other societies do not prohibit, even if done by an older adult, who is a stranger. In the case of Islam, you are not to touch a female child as a strange man. But if you are betrothed to her, you can do these acts, which normally are not done with sexual intentions or for sexual gratification. But who guarantees that even in society without such precautionary rulings preventing a foreign male touching a female child, abuse do not take place? It is all dependent on the individuals and their intentions. This is not a license to promote sexual gratification on the betrothed.

You can listen to and read the below screenshots attached and draw your conclusions.






IMG-20210204-WA0007.jpg

IMG-20210204-WA0008.jpg
 
Top