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Deep into marxism

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  • gramsci

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    for the same reason of other threads in this section of the forum : self improvement
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    we need to argue and explain this ideas to others .. as a general culture .
    here we re not in politics section ;)
    When Marx bi2oul that capitalism can only thrive on the exploitation of the working class I believe it. The issue I have with communism is one issue in specific. There are doctors, lawyers, farmers, scientists, rubbish workers, delivery, etc. There is no way that ALL of these different job titles can earn the same wage. If each to his merit than if I earn the same as a rubbish worker masalan and I went to uni for 4 years to study computer engineering what was the point? I could have worked anything and earn the same wage. This is one of the reasons why communism failed. Also, we don't need to punish the 'rich' man by cutting up his lot and giving it to people who are poor. For example. Yemken hal rich person actually worked for his money. He worked hard, studied etc and got what he should have. The poor person doesn't want to do anything. He never got educated and never worked. Why should he have a cut of my land which he obviously didn't place a dime into it nor do anything at all for himself nor society?
     
    gramsci

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    When Marx bi2oul that capitalism can only thrive on the exploitation of the working class I believe it. The issue I have with communism is one issue in specific. There are doctors, lawyers, farmers, scientists, rubbish workers, delivery, etc. There is no way that ALL of these different job titles can earn the same wage. If each to his merit than if I earn the same as a rubbish worker masalan and I went to uni for 4 years to study computer engineering what was the point? I could have worked anything and earn the same wage. This is one of the reasons why communism failed. Also, we don't need to punish the 'rich' man buy cutting up his lot and giving it to people who are poor. For example. Yemken hal rich person actually worked for his money. He worked hard, studied etc and got what he should have. The poor person doesn't want to do anything. He never got educated and never worked. Why should he have a cut of my land which he obviously didn't place a dime into it nor do anything at all for himself nor society?
    the issue of wages is not as u depict it and is not simple ..
    who told u they have same wages ?
    but still all must have the right for free education , free health , free housing equally..
    regarding their work , each based on his ability ,and his dedication to work.
    second , the abolition of private property regarding the means of production ..mean the industries , the lands and everything that have to do with fulfilling society needs , once u abolish the profit based economy , a planned economy must reorganize the work based on the society needs and not based on what capitalist need .and thats the first phase in the transition to socialism , u can do it democratically and gradually ( maybe ) or do it by revolution (as happened before with its pro and its contro) ..once u set the basis for a socialist transition , the investment and the work must be focused on building the socialist society and its developpment .
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    the issue of wages is not as u depict it and is not simple ..
    who told u they have same wages ?
    but still all must have the right for free education , free health , free housing equally..
    regarding their work , each based on his ability ,and his dedication to work.
    second , the abolition of private property regarding the means of production ..mean the industries , the lands and everything that have to do with fulfilling society needs , once u abolish the profit based economy , a planned economy must reorganize the work based on the society needs and not based on what capitalist need .and thats the first phase in the transition to socialism , u can do it democratically and gradually ( maybe ) or do it by revolution (as happened before with its pro and its contro) ..once u set the basis for a socialist transition , the investment and the work must be focused on building the socialist society and its developpment .
    nice. :)
    Same wages is a big NO NO
    akide free education. free housing kif and from whom??
    does the government build these houses and give them to people?
    How does one create wealth? Working for just living???
    No one wants to work just to live. They want to create wealth. They want to become richer and richer so to say. In a country like Australia masalan you have free healthcare and free education (except for private schooling). does that make it a socialist society?

    You want to abolish profit. tayeb sou2el you are working and you accumulate wealth. Akide one wants to buy a business or a house masalan or some investment property to become wealthy OR to make a profit. If this isn't the case in a country min bi2oul that investor bidal bel balad? he will go and his investment with him.
     
    Last edited:
    gramsci

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    nice. :)
    Same wages is a big NO NO
    akide free education. free housing kif and from whom??
    does the government build these houses and give them to people?
    How does one create wealth? Working for just living???
    No one wants to work just to live. They want to create wealth. They want to become richer and richer so to say. In a country like Australia masalan you have free healthcare and free education (except for private schooling). does that make it a socialist society?
    to create wealth u need to work to ur own and not for the capitalist .. in a perfect model where all work ..
    the hours u work lets say 8 hours daily , in capitalist system , 4 hours goes to cover ur wage , and the 4 hours goes as profit to the capitalist .. ( plus value theory of marx ).. in a socialist system , those 4 hours profit goes partially to cover the expenses of housing , health , education , culture etc .. its the state who ridistribute wealth.. u wont ever become rich and u dont need since everything is guaranteed for u ...the extra money u gain u can invest it on ur self wellbeing ..in a society with no embargo , no CIA infiltration and no harassment from neighbouring countries that oblige u to invest on army :D
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    to create wealth u need to work to ur own and not for the capitalist .. in a perfect model where all work ..
    the hours u work lets say 8 hours daily , in capitalist system , 4 hours goes to cover ur wage , and the 4 hours goes as profit to the capitalist .. ( plus value theory of marx ).. in a socialist system , those 4 hours profit goes partially to cover the expenses of housing , health , education , culture etc .. its the state who ridistribute wealth.. u wont ever become rich and u dont need since everything is guaranteed for u ...the extra money u gain u can invest it on ur self wellbeing ..in a society with no embargo , no CIA infiltration and no harassment from neighbouring countries that oblige u to invest on army :D
    That is not how it worked in the USSR. In the Soviet Union every single person even though they were educated had to work in the land and it was forced upon you. Aslan even a mother had to work. If she didn't she would go to jail. Why do you think the birth rate in the country is so low? It is due to the policies in them days. You couldn't even change jobs without state approval. Aslan as soon as you finished uni you were allocated a job by the state.
    The best thing that communism brought to society was free healthcare, free education. Each to his need is the right motto BUT how it was applied is incorrect.
     
    gramsci

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    That is not how it worked in the USSR. In the Soviet Union every single person even though they were educated had to work in the land and it was forced upon you. Aslan even a mother had to work. If she didn't she would go to jail. Why do you think the birth rate in the country is so low? It is due to the policies in them days. You couldn't even change jobs without state approval. Aslan as soon as you finished uni you were allocated a job by the state.
    The best thing that communism brought to society was free healthcare, free education. Each to his need is the right motto BUT how it was applied is incorrect.
    there are many examples outside the soviet union... but consider the huge investment made in ussr on army and missiles programs .. they were at war constantly since even before communism...
    take for example , hungary , czekoslovakia ,jugoslavia , cuba ..
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    there are many examples outside the soviet union... but consider the huge investment made in ussr on army and missiles programs .. they were at war constantly since even before communism...
    take for example , hungary , czekoslovakia ,jugoslavia , cuba ..
    You think that everything being state owned is a good thing?
    In Cuba 75% of all businesses are state owned. The state could pressure the population economically to get their way. The question is also if the state doesn't depend on taxes from the local population how does it get its money??? The salary in Cuba a month is like $27. How in the world does one live??
     
    gramsci

    gramsci

    Legendary Member
    You think that everything being state owned is a good thing?
    In Cuba 75% of all businesses are state owned. The state could pressure the population economically to get their way. The question is also if the state doesn't depend on taxes from the local population how does it get its money??? The salary in Cuba a month is like $27. How in the world does one live??
    in czekoslovakia and in jugoslabia there was the so called market socialism.. not everything was owned by the state .. the small business were allowed and there was a good work organization system unique for jugoslavia experiece ( till 1980 )
    obviously we are talking about economic aspect and not political ,where u must consider that all comunist countries were in state of war ..and economic developpment need a state of peace.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    in czekoslovakia and in jugoslabia there was the so called market socialism.. not everything was owned by the state .. the small business were allowed and there was a good work organization system unique for jugoslavia experiece ( till 1980 )
    obviously we are talking about economic aspect and not political ,where u must consider that all comunist countries were in state of war ..and economic developpment need a state of peace.
    Agree.
    I am with state having a 51% share of every business in a country. They should have say in how these businesses are run. I am also with two taxes for business. One tax like 15% for small and 20% for large enterprises. The government is elected by the people. This tax that the government is collecting goes back into health, education, housing and infrastructure. These are free for people according to each families needs. Wages are allocated to their profession. A doctor gets a higher wage than a rubbish cleaner. The people have a say in how the country is run not just corrupt officials who squander funds. The system in the USSR failed. Doesnt mean they are living better now but it failed for a reason.
     
    The_FPMer

    The_FPMer

    Active Member
    Dear @SAVO please present your own arguments and refrain from always posting links of other people's opinion. I would love to hear your thoughts about Stalin. I know he had a cunning shrewdness that outsmarted Lenin and Trotsky. His management style was also very efficient. It is said that he worked for 20 hours per day for weeks with little slow of wits. He took Russia from a backward peasant country to an industrial powerhouse. But, the man was a genocidal maniac and that part cannot be overlooked.

    I'm curious to read your perspective on this matter.
     
    SAVO

    SAVO

    Member
    Dear @SAVO please present your own arguments and refrain from always posting links of other people's opinion. I would love to hear your thoughts about Stalin. I know he had a cunning shrewdness that outsmarted Lenin and Trotsky. His management style was also efficient, it is said that he worked for 20 hours per day for weeks with little slow of wits. But, the man was a genocidal maniac and that part cannot be overlooked.

    I'm curious to read your perspective on this matter.
    " the man was a genocidal maniac"

    what make u say that ?
    yes some people were sent to gulags , who were conspiring againt the socialist revolution. aka trotskist..who had contacts with fascist .
    followed by some zionist and some traitors who were working for nazi germany..
    remember that in order to defeat the nazism , USSR payed the tribute with 20 million of victims to liberate the world..under the guidance of stalin..
    so in the light of the great patriotic war , u can understand the necessity of the purges made ...and it was not a genocidial but act of defence,,
     
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