Deep into Shia Islam

AtheistForYeezus

AtheistForYeezus

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Is Shia Islam an early form of nepotism?

As you know, the differences between the Sunni and Shiite sects are rooted in disagreements over the succession to the Prophet Muhammad and over the nature of the leadership the Muslim community should have.

Shiites believed the leadership should be transmitted though the prophet's bloodline, and believed Ali, Mohamed's cousin, to be the rightful successor.

In contrast, Sunnis believed that leadership should be awarded to a qualified, pious individual who would follow the customs of the Prophet.
They advocated elections as a mechanism of choosing the successor of Mohamed.

To be honest, I find the Sunni "shura" system more logical and in touch with today's democratic society. The Shia bloodline concept reminds me a lot of hereditary dictatorships in he Middle East.

What are your thoughts?

(Of course this thread does not to deny the ensuing Sunni violence that resulted in the death of Ali's sons. But this warrants a separate discussion)
 
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  • Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    The Imam in Shi'a theology is a religious position and not a political position. Only after Khomeini politicized his own position that Imam started having a political and military character.

    Shi'a is not a homogeneous group.

    Ja'afari for example halted counting the Imamat after the death of Ja'far al Sadiq, due to the death of his oldest son Ismail.
    Ismaelies continued counting considering Ismail a hidden Imam and counted his son Mohamed seventh Imam.
    Twelver continued to count until the ninth century when the twelfth Imam disappeared and considered him hidden.

    Ja'fari and Twelver Shi'a did not give a political significance to Imam and did not seek to develop a theocracy, since they had no Imams after the twelve Imam disappeared.

    In Iran, where people are high on some type of weird drugs. They believe that Khomeini is from the ancestors of Al Hussein and he is god in the image of human. Wilayat al Faqih is an invention invented by Khomeini.

    Khomeini Wilayat al Faqih and Sunni Caliphate are the same. They both believe that Caliph and Imam are the leaders of the community politically and militarily.

    They disagree on the ancestry but both dictate a hereditary ancestry.

    Iranian Twelver Shi'a believes that leadership is strictly to those from the descent of Fatima and Ali.

    Sunnis Caliph must be from the tribe of Quraish and not only from the descendants of Fatima and Ali.

    In both cases Metwali and Nussayiri, Christian or Jew does not become an equal to leadership of the community.

    They are both exclusionary.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

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    The Imam in Shi'a theology is a religious position and not a political position. Only after Khomeini politicized his own position that Imam started having a political and military character.

    Shi'a is not a homogeneous group.

    Ja'afari for example halted counting the Imamat after the death of Ja'far al Sadiq, due to the death of his oldest son Ismail.
    Ismaelies continued counting considering Ismail a hidden Imam and counted his son Mohamed seventh Imam.
    Twelver continued to count until the ninth century when the twelfth Imam disappeared and considered him hidden.

    Ja'fari and Twelver Shi'a did not give a political significance to Imam and did not seek to develop a theocracy, since they had no Imams after the twelve Imam disappeared.

    In Iran, where people are high on some type of weird drugs. They believe that Khomeini is from the ancestors of Al Hussein and he is god in the image of human. Wilayat al Faqih is an invention invented by Khomeini.

    Khomeini Wilayat al Faqih and Sunni Caliphate are the same. They both believe that Caliph and Imam are the leaders of the community politically and militarily.

    They disagree on the ancestry but both dictate a hereditary ancestry.

    Iranian Twelver Shi'a believes that leadership is strictly to those from the descent of Fatima and Ali.

    Sunnis Caliph must be from the tribe of Quraish and not only from the descendants of Fatima and Ali.

    In both cases Metwali and Nussayiri, Christian or Jew does not become an equal to leadership of the community.

    They are both exclusionary.
    If I'm not mistaken, most Lebanese Shiites are Twelvers not Jaafari, is that correct?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    If I'm not mistaken, most Lebanese Shiites are Twelvers not Jaafari, is that correct?
    I believe so, Ja'fari are not Twelver is evidenced in history and institutionally. Albeit it is becoming confusing after Twelver Iranian theological invasion of the clergy in the Ja'fari School in Lebanon and Iraq.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    If I'm not mistaken, most Lebanese Shiites are Twelvers not Jaafari, is that correct?
    Sorry I miss understood the question. No, most Lebanese Shi'a are Jaafari and Hezbollah is Twelver. Nevertheless, the invasion of Twelver Shi'a into Ja'fari theology makes Ja'afari clergy somehow accepting the Imams, even though Ja'fari halted counting due to the death of his older son and Twelver continuation through the second Mussa.

    Musa al-Sader was not Twelver Shi'a. He was Ja'fari.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

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    Sorry I miss understood the question. No, most Lebanese Shi'a are Jaafari and Hezbollah is Twelver. Nevertheless, the invasion of Twelver Shi'a into Ja'fari theology makes Ja'afari clergy somehow accepting the Imams, even though Ja'fari halted counting due to the death of his older son and Twelver continuation through the second Mussa.

    Musa al-Sader was not Twelver Shi'a. He was Ja'fari.
    According to Wikipedia they are the same. Jaafari is a variation of Twelver.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    According to el Shahrastani who died in the eleventh century, they were three.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Check the Wikipedia page about Shia Islam - Branches.
    This page was written by a Twelver Shi'a that only reads Twelver Shi'a books. He is exactly like the Wahabi.

    Twelver Shi'a theology only emerged in the ninth century. Ja'fari was there since the Umayyads.

    Twelver Shi'a was elaborated on as a theology in eighteenth century Iran. In Iraq there were Ja'afari yet endorsing the importance of the Twelve Imams but not considering them as legitimate heirs to any Imamat.

    If you go to Maronite sites, they will tell the story of Saint Maroun as if it started with Saint Paul. They believe this narrative.

    So do Twelver Shi'a, they believe that their narrative that was written in the eighteenth century actually was written by Ali.

    Twelver Shi'a the way it is taught today did not exist when I was a kid visiting Lebanon. It did not exist in South Lebanon.

    Only after the Iranian Revolution and the entry of Hezbollah that the Mahdi made his way to Lebanon.

    Mafatih el Jinnan was translated from Persian into Arabic in 1982. Neither I, nor my father have ever heard of this book, and so didn't all our grandparents.

    It was written by an Iranian theologian in the late eighteenth century. He does not mention his sources. He just writes a book. He claims the book is the sayings of Ali. He translates it into Arabic and tells the Lebanese it came back to its original language. But where is his source in the original language.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

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    This page was written by a Twelver Shi'a that only reads Twelver Shi'a books. He is exactly like the Wahabi.

    Twelver Shi'a theology only emerged in the ninth century. Ja'fari was there since the Umayyads.

    Twelver Shi'a was elaborated on as a theology in eighteenth century Iran. In Iraq there were Ja'afari yet endorsing the importance of the Twelve Imams but not considering them as legitimate heirs to any Imamat.

    If you go to Maronite sites, they will tell the story of Saint Maroun as if it started with Saint Paul. They believe this narrative.

    So do Twelver Shi'a, they believe that their narrative that was written in the eighteenth century actually was written by Ali.

    Twelver Shi'a the way it is taught today did not exist when I was a kid visiting Lebanon. It did not exist in South Lebanon.

    Only after the Iranian Revolution and the entry of Hezbollah that the Mahdi made his way to Lebanon.

    Mafatih el Jinnan was translated from Persian into Arabic in 1982. Neither I, nor my father have ever heard of this book, and so didn't all our grandparents.

    It was written by an Iranian theologian in the late eighteenth century. He does not mention his sources. He just writes a book. He claims the book is the sayings of Ali. He translates it into Arabic and tells the Lebanese it came back to its original language. But where is his source in the original language.
    What beliefs do you hold now? And where do you live?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    What beliefs do you hold now? And where do you live?
    I hold the beliefs I saw my father practice. He never prayed five or even three times a day. He never fasted. He did not believe in heaven and hell. But he was a good man.

    As to where I live, I am a nomad an Israelite in diaspora.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

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    I hold the beliefs I saw my father practice. He never prayed five or even three times a day. He never fasted. He did not believe in heaven and hell. But he was a good man.

    As to where I live, I am a nomad an Israelite in diaspora.

    Kif rekbeh ma3ik haydeh? A Jewish Metwali yet non praciticing Lebanese Israelite. Ma tkouneh Jaish La7ed o_O
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Kif rekbeh ma3ik haydeh? A Jewish Metwali yet non praciticing Lebanese Israelite. Ma tkouneh Jaish La7ed o_O
    No I am not. My village was not occupied by Israel. I never lived there anyhow.
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    @manifesto

    It seems that what I contemplated about Ameli was true. I looked into the history of Tabari and it seems that the Ameli were an Arabized tribe from Yemen. Actually Tabari says that Judaism originated in Yemen. What is clear in here is that they are Mustaarab and not Arabs. This contradicts some sources that assume that the Ghassanides were actually Arabs. They seem to have been also Hebrews from Yemenn that were Arabized. When you go online you would find some sources giving Arab ancestry to Kahtan and others giving ancestry to Aber. Obviously they were Arabized and not Arabs.

    [article]

    ومات المثنى بن حارثة وتزوج سعد بن أبي وقاص امرأته سلمى ابنة خصفة وذلك في سنة أربع عشرة وأقام تلك الحجة للناس عمر بن الخطاب ودخل أبو عبيدة بن الجراح تلك السنة دمشق فشتا بها فلما أصافت الروم سار هرقل في الروم حتى نزل أنطاكية ومعه من المستعربة لخم وجذام وبلقين وبلي وعاملة وتلك القبائل من قضاعة غسان بشر كثير ومعه من أهل أرمينية مثل ذلك فلما نزلها أقام بها وبعث الصقلار خصيا له فسار بمائة ألف مقاتل معه من أهل أرمينية اثنا عشر ألفا عليهم جرجة ومعه من المستعربة من غسان وتلك القبائل من

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    [/article]
    [article]

    حدثنا ابن حميد قال حدثنا سلمة عن ابن إسحاق عن أبي مالك بن ثعلبة بن أبي مالك القرظي قال سمعت إبراهيم بن محمد بن طلحة بن عبيدالله يحدث أن تبعا لما دنا من اليمن ليدخلها حالت حمير بينه وبين ذلك وقالوا لا تدخلها علينا وقد فارقت ديننا فدعاهم إلى دينه وقال إنه دين خير من دينكم قالوا فحاكمنا إلى النار قال نعم قال وكانت باليمن فيما يزعم أهل اليمن نار تحكم بينهم فيما يختلفون فيه تأكل الظالم ولا تضر المظلوم فلما قالوا ذلك لتبع قال أنصفتم فخرج قومه بأوثانهم وما يتقربون به في دينهم وخرج الحبران بمصاحفهما في أعناقهما متقلديها حتى قعدوا للنار عند مخرجها الذي تخرج

    (1/427)


    النار منه فخرجت النار إليهم فلا أقبلت نحوهم حادوا عنها وهابوها فذمرهم من حضرهم من الناس وأمروهم بالصبر فصبروا حتى غشيتهم وأكلت الأوثان وما قربوا معها ومن حمل ذلك من رجال حمير وخرج الحبران بمصاحفهما في أعناقهما تعرق جباههما لم تضرهما فأصفقت حمير عند ذلك على دينه فمن هناك وعن ذلك كان أصل اليهودية باليمن

    [/article]
     
    Genius

    Genius

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    This page was written by a Twelver Shi'a that only reads Twelver Shi'a books. He is exactly like the Wahabi.

    Twelver Shi'a theology only emerged in the ninth century. Ja'fari was there since the Umayyads.

    Twelver Shi'a was elaborated on as a theology in eighteenth century Iran. In Iraq there were Ja'afari yet endorsing the importance of the Twelve Imams but not considering them as legitimate heirs to any Imamat.

    If you go to Maronite sites, they will tell the story of Saint Maroun as if it started with Saint Paul. They believe this narrative.

    So do Twelver Shi'a, they believe that their narrative that was written in the eighteenth century actually was written by Ali.

    Twelver Shi'a the way it is taught today did not exist when I was a kid visiting Lebanon. It did not exist in South Lebanon.

    Only after the Iranian Revolution and the entry of Hezbollah that the Mahdi made his way to Lebanon.

    Mafatih el Jinnan was translated from Persian into Arabic in 1982. Neither I, nor my father have ever heard of this book, and so didn't all our grandparents.

    It was written by an Iranian theologian in the late eighteenth century. He does not mention his sources. He just writes a book. He claims the book is the sayings of Ali. He translates it into Arabic and tells the Lebanese it came back to its original language. But where is his source in the original language.
    Which maronite sites link st maroun to Paul as you claim?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Which maronite sites link st maroun to Paul as you claim?
    Some Maronite woman in a coffee shop was telling the story of her dogma, and how her Church originated with Jesus Christ and Saint Peter. You know how in Lebanon people are high on religion and keep talking about the truth of their history.
     
    Genius

    Genius

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    Some Maronite woman in a coffee shop was telling the story of her dogma, and how her Church originated with Jesus Christ and Saint Peter. You know how in Lebanon people are high on religion and keep talking about the truth of their history.
    A maronite woman in a coffee shop? :)

    You just claimed in this very page that maronite SITES (in plural) claim a link between paul and maroun.

    You realize what this means. What this makes you. Right?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    Can someone change Paul to Peter in the original post please?
     
    Mighty Goat

    Mighty Goat

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    A maronite woman in a coffee shop? :)

    You just claimed in this very page that maronite SITES (in plural) claim a link between paul and maroun.

    You realize what this means. What this makes you. Right?
    This thread is called Deep into Shi'a Islam. Now, if you want to adopt a Jihadi position in defense of Maronite, maybe you should open a thread and call it Deep into Maronite Christianity or maybe see a shrink to deal with your compulsive defensive disorder.
     
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