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Do we need a sexual predators registry in Lebanon ?

Discussion in 'Lebanon Away From Politics' started by Isabella, May 18, 2017.

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  1. Yes

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  2. No

    0 vote(s)
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  3. I need additional information

    1 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Since pedophilia as an epidemic keeps being brought up in various discussions, by me and other people, I thought why not make a thread dedicated to this issue...

    Not much is being done in our Lebanese society to protect our youth and to raise awareness about the fact that sexual predators exist, and that they seem to be growing in numbers...

    Maybe we can help here in our own little way about spreading awareness, and please if you have kids make sure they know not to talk to strangers, or even trust anyone in your own entourage (as pedophilia is often close to home) encourage them to tell you exactly what's happening in their lives, and make them feel safe to express themselves, basically just make sure they know you won't judge them if they speak up about anything bad that has happened to them!

    Anyway in regards to the question being asked in the title, do you think Lebanon needs a sexual predators registry? If no please explain your position
     
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  2. My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon Well-Known Member
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    On what premises will such a database be set up, and by who? Will it contain convicted as well as suspects?
    Do you trust Lebanese authorities for its accuracy and up_to_date management (so no innocent people are falsely hanged)?
    How do you think it should be used to effectively fight pedophilia?
     
  3. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    I think it would be something like the foreign model, set up by l amn l 3am...

    A sex offender registry allows government authorities to keep track of sex offenders, regarding where they live, what they do etc. Then people included on this list become subject to restrictions including where they live, where they can go, and how far they need to be from the nearest child... I also think such a registry should be public information, discrimination against a convicted criminal is a okay in my book lol!

    Now different criteria are set up to include people on a registered sex offender list, these criteria include risk, sentence and degree of offense... I'm not saying it's a totally wonderful system as often people are included without committing an actual crime, it still is better than nothing though...


    no I don't really trust the Lebanese authorities nor do I trust the Lebanese in general.. but I think we need something lol! Sex offenders cannot just get away with it which is the case for a good majority of them since children often blame themselves when they fall victim to these people and don't share with their parents, of course that's also related to the lack of sexual education in Lebanon, and a concrete and objective definition of what constitutes abuse and what doesn't! Or Shu lli byekhdoush l haya2 l 3am w shou lli ma byekhedsho! For example I think a man in his 30s or 40s marrying a teenage girl is extremely offensive, a couple of consenting adults having sex in public i don't really give a fuck about lol!

    If we are to make a sex offenders registry I think it should be risk based to minimise repeat offenders, offense based registries do not actually minimise the risk of sexual offenses... That said, a guy was able to take advantage of 10 different children in 2013 medre 2014 because not a single one of his victims spoke up about it! This is not normal lol!

    Awareness about this issue starts at home... Then the authorities need to do their jobs! So should majlis l nuweb and all other authorities! Our children are already robbed of their childhood in Lebanon, let's not rob them of their innocence as well!
     
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  4. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Lebanon: Pass Bill to End Child Marriage

    Would Set Minimum Age at 18, Punish Violators


    (Beirut) – Lebanon’s parliament should quickly pass legislation to end child marriage in the country, Human Rights Watch said today.

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    EXPAND

    The parliament building in downtown Beirut, Lebanon October 27, 2016.

    © 2016 Reuters
    Lebanon has no minimum age for marriage for all of its citizens or any civil code regulating personal status matters. Instead, religious courts set the age based on 15 personal status laws, some of which allow girls younger than 15 to marry. A draft law, introduced on March 28, 2017, would set the minimum age for marriage at 18, with no exceptions.

    “Legislation prohibiting child marriage is long overdue for Lebanon,” said Lama Fakih, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “Setting 18 as the national minimum age for marriage will go a long way toward protecting children from the horrors of early marriage.”

    Legislation prohibiting child marriage is long overdue for Lebanon. Setting 18 as the national minimum age for marriage will go a long way toward protecting children from the horrors of early marriage.
    Lama Fakih
    Deputy Middle East Director

    The draft law would penalize anyone contributing to or complicit in the marriage of a child with fines equal to 10 times the minimum wage and prison sentences ranging from six months to two years. The bill was prepared by the Lebanese Women’s Democratic Gathering and introduced by Elie Keirouz, a member of parliament.

    According to a 2016 UNICEF report, six percent of women in Lebanon ages 20 to 24 married before they turned 18. Child marriage appears to be on the rise among the more than 1 million Syrian refugees in the country, with one 2017 study finding that 24 percent of refugee girls ages 15 to 17 are married. Women’s rights organizations in Lebanon, including Kafa and Abaad, have long worked on campaigns to set the minimum age for marriage at 18.

    Early marriage can have dire lifelong consequences, often halting or harming a girl’s ability to realize a wide range of human rights, Human Rights Watch said. Girls who marry early are more likely to leave school and are at heightened risk of marital rape, domestic violence, poor access to decent work, exploitation, and a range of health problems due to early childbearing.

    The benefits of ending child marriage are transformative and far-reaching. Tackling child marriage is a strategic way to advance women’s rights and empowerment in several areas, including health, education, work, freedom from violence, and participation in public life, Human Rights Watch said.

    In addition to passing the law and ensuring enforcement, Lebanon’s authorities should pursue criminal cases against adult spouses, parents, and local authorities who continue the practice. Authorities should also develop programs to prevent child marriages such as empowering girls with information and support networks, ensuring girls’ access to quality education, and engaging and educating parents and community members about the negative effects of child marriage.

    Lebanon is party to a number of international conventions that explicitly prohibit or have been interpreted to prohibit child marriage, including the Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. The United Nations committees that oversee their implementation have also called for state parties to set the minimum age for marriage at 18 and to take measures to eliminate child marriage.

    A number of other countries in the Middle East and North Africa have set the minimum age for marriage at 18 or higher, with some allowing exceptions in limited circumstances. These include: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Jordan, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.

    Lebanon’s parliament should take additional steps to protect women’s rights in the country, Human Rights Watch said. It should criminalize marital rape and repeal article 522 of the penal code, which allows rapists to escape prosecution by marrying their victims.

    “Setting 18 as the minimum age of marriage is a common-sense measure that will have a real impact on the lives of girls in Lebanon,” Fakih said. “Parliament should pass the law without delay.”

    Lebanon: Pass Bill to End Child Marriage | Human Rights Watch






    Does anyone know what happened to this bill as well?? Especially considering that 1% of women in Lebanon are married by age 15, 6% by age 18! Lebanon - Child Marriage Around The World. Girls Not Brides
     
  5. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    No we don't. And even if we did, we do not have the competence, the honesty and the integrity to make such lists.
     
  6. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Please explain, why not?

    I do agree that we lack both the competence and integrity... This sex offenders list is suggested as a way to minimise sexual predators risk, but there are also other factors that can contribute to minimising that risk....

    Anyway I think you can add an interesting perspective regarding pedophilia in Lebanon, are there specific laws against it? What's the typical sentence for someone convicted of the crime? And I'm not sure if you're familiar with this last one or not, but what's the percentage of repeat offenders in regards to sexual predators in Lebanon ?
     
  7. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    For example @Abou Sandal is what they are saying in this video true? This guy will be out in 5 years? What's to stop him from doing the same thing to 10 other children?
     
  8. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Legendary Member
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    the risks of incompetence and lack of honesty and integrity, pale in front of the risks of child abuse.
    We cannot use any such excuses to let predators roam free. Something should be done, and if there are risks of mismanagement, then we deal with the mismanagement..
     
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  9. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    First of all, I do not believe in the benefit of such system, and I do not think that people should be tagging and policing each others. and I do not believe that this system helps in suppressing crime, I do believe however in a system where when you commit a crime, you get punished for it, and when you pay your dues to the society, then you need to be left alone. And if you're considered a risk to the society, then it should be up to the police to monitor your movements discretely.

    Second, no matter what one's opinion about such measures is, in this country, we need first to have a proper police department, a proper system of justice, and a non corrupt and competent authority, before doing anything. Because as things are, as of today, I see such system object of abuse, and a tool for blackmail, slander and defamation, more than anything else. I see a lot of people being unjustly tagged and I don't see any real culprit arrested or punished.
     
  10. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Such systems can follow the Canadian or the Australian models not the us ones where only law enforcement agencies are privy to this list... I understand that we need a competent justice system and law enforcement agencies... But in the meantime guys like that serial rapist will be out in 2-3 years and none would be the wiser....

    The other problem here is that children fall prey to these people and they're too ashamed to report it to anyone... This guy was actively raping children for 14 years before he was caught! And he himself was raped when he was 8! In ashrafieh to top it off not some isolated town in Tripoli! There should be a system put in place so that the minute he gets out of prison he would not be allowed in the proximity of children... That's what this sexual registry guarantees! That your children's teachers, their gardiens, any adult in their proximity would not be a convicted sexual predator!
     
  11. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Legendary Member
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    the part in red applies when you commit a crime like stealing, or destroying public properties, or commit fraud, or get into a fight with another adult... when you have a history of sexually abusing children, you cannot say go to jail for a couple of years, then you're good to go.
    You steal, you serve your time, you get out, and if you steal again, you go back to jail, fair.
    You abuse a child, you serve your time, you get out, if you abuse another child, that's ruining a life of a child... and that's not the same. When it comes to children and sexual predators, it is very serious, it is not just another crime. I WILL WANT TO KNOW if my neighbor next door has a history of raping children... ! if my child is abused and I know later that my neighbor predator had a history and no one bothered to tell me, I will definitely.... break the law ;)

    On the pitfalls of applying this in Lebanon, again, I agree, we live in a screwed up system, but once again, we cannot just turn away from this problem just because our system is not fair.
     
  12. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    I have to admit that this is probably the only time I see you taking a stance, based on emotions, rather than reason. But I can understand that.

    However, I must still disagree. This matter is a pure technical issue, and I must insist, that even though you might have the impression that you would be more ready to prevent and react, in presence of such procedures, I'm afraid that this is only an illusion.

    Matter of fact is that the best thing that can protect a citizen so far, is the strict enforcement of just laws, with the help of an effective justice.

    This is still the most adequate and safe way to prevent crime, and citizens taking matters with their own hands, has never proven to be either effective or beneficial, whether for individuals themselves, or society as a whole.

    As for the nature of the crime, sure, all crimes are not identical in nature, and some are more horrific than others, but still, enforcement of the law needs to be the same for all. Again, only passion and emotion drives one to the conclusion that a specific crime needs to be worn on the forehead of the one who committed it, for life, even after him paying for it.

    This in itself, is against basic human rights, and is absolutely counterproductive, let alone of a any utility. Again, with an adequate enforcement of the law, you as a citizen, should not have to even worry about having to take such matters into your own hands.

    And if you are a good parent, then the same precautions you would take to protect yourself and your kids from any stranger, should be sufficient to protect them from an ex-felon. Because at the end of the day, you would teach your children to act and beware the same way vis-a-vis any stranger, no matter if you know his past or not. No matter if his past is stained or not.

    Because you know well that any stranger might present a potential danger, no matter who he is, even if he never committed a crime. Or maybe he was just simply never caught. In all cases, you will never take the risk no matter what. So again, that list never helps, it only creates problems, and complicates matters.

    Not to mention that it can ruin many lives, in so many ways. Let alone it being in complete opposition of the basic fundamentals of the modern society's system of justice, under the rule and guidance of human rights. Such listing is equivalent to witch hunting and other practices that are from the middle-ages, and societies evolved and learned that these practices should be eradicated. We can discuss that in volumes, but that is a long debate about the history and evolution of justice and law.

    Besides, while child abuse is horrific, other crimes are horrific too. Murder, rape, torture,etc...etc...And by the same logic, anyone could argue that these too need to have a public registry. Actually, by that logic, any crime could be argued to be in need of such public registry.

    Again, that is fundamentally a medieval practice that cannot be compatible, and is in complete opposition with the modern concept of law and justice. On so many levels, such practices would send our societies backward,

    While all it takes, is good education as a mean of prevention, and good enforcement of laws, under a serious judicial watch. Societies evolved through centuries, and experienced all kind of theories, before ending up with this conclusion.
     
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  13. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    Without a competent and non corrupt system of law and order and justice, you have no one capable or entitled or entrusted to make that list. So there could not be any possible "in the meantime"

    You said it yourself. The guy was actively raping children for 14 years before being caught. That's proof enough that the registry guarantees nothing.

    The best guarantee is a good education and a good enforcement of the law under a serious judicial watch. There is no secret recipe in this.
     
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  14. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Legendary Member
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    i do admit i do get emotional about this... maybe because i hear what's happening sometimes in Lebanon, and hardly anything is done about it. And truth is, i have a soft spot for two groups of people: kids and the elderly... both are generally insecure, scared, and helpless.

    Now emotions aside, sex offender registries do not need to be public for the purpose of shaming the offenders.. registries are sometimes in the hands of the police, where offenders have to report their place of residence on a regular basis, more or less to make them feel continuously monitored, rather than feel too comfortable to commit their offenses repeatedly. These registries exist in many developed countries, and not in third world countries. i understand what you are saying about Lebanon not being a "normal" country for something sensitive like that to be developed, but my point is, and this is my personal opinion, we cannot turn a blind eye (by sending offenders for 2-3 years in jail and then forget about it), just because we dont trust the system. Instead of doing nothing, we should fight for a system that works, and that protects children. There must be a solution, probably not perfect, but something should be done.
    And no, i disagree with the comparison with other crimes... if you kill someone intentionally (premeditated) in most cases you go to jail for life.. why? so that you won't ever do it again, no one wants to take the risk. Child abusers get only a couple of years in jail, and then what?
     
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  15. Isabella

    Isabella The Queen Of "Bazella"
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    Yes I agree that a good education and maybe some awareness is needed... Even in the united states only about 30% of abuse cases get reported! When I was working on this issue that number was close to 10% in Lebanon

    My issue here is not with the registry, rather with the fact that children don't know any better it's up to the parents to guide them and let them know about any red flags they may encounter... Most sexual predators are not strangers to kids, they are usually someone in their entourage... Like this guy was a social worker working exclusively with children, so parents need to also be wary of who they let their children be around, whether in school, after school, at a birthday party etc. And teach their children that if some sick freak takes advantage of them, it is not their fault and they need to speak up immediately! If this guy's first victim had said anything and the crime was reported maybe 9 other children would have been saved the same fate! But no it's always the parents not believing their children or keeping hush hush about it because 3ayb


    But thank you for your input abou sandal, sorry about the rant
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  16. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Legendary Member
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    that is true... education at home, monitoring at school, and strict law enforcement are the most important steps.
    i saw a vide recently on social media about people going to parks and luring kids with candy and pets, just to show their parents how vulnerable kids could be.. which freaked out the parents.
    Parents getting involved at schools is essential too.. to make sure there are adequate rules and procedures to monitor and deal with any possible issues. There was a case here in Toronto where teachers in a DAYCARE! were too busy on texting on their phones they didnt notice several little kids sneaking out, crossing the street and going into a mall...
    Nothing will ensure 100% protection.. sometimes parents and grandparents are the abusers.. all one can do is a lot of education and monitoring as much as (practically) possible.
     
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  17. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    Just as a side note, a murderer can be released after few years in jail, for many reasons. However let's forget about murder. How about rape, torture, beating women...Trust me, they can be more horrific sometimes, than certain cases that are classified as "child molestation" or even "child rape". Truth is after all, that no one can tell any victim, that the crime that she was victim of, is more or less horrific than any other. And this is why it is perfectly legitimate when adopting such logic, to ask for extending it to other crimes.

    Now about the registry. Sure, as long as the registry is not public and stays within the secrecy of law enforcement agencies, and as long as no measures are taken, that can hinder living a normal life, or oppress, I am all for it. This is precisely what I had in mind when I said that what is needed, is a good law enforcement under a serious judicial watch.

    That is not only fine by me, it's actually what I would advocate for in the case of many crimes, including theft and more particularly felony.

    Still my only problem remains in such case, at least for the time being, is that I neither trust the law enforcement system, nor the justice system. They are rogues, corrupt, incompetent and completely unjust.

    I don't trust them. I don't trust their findings. I don't trust their conclusions. It is inconceivable for me today, to even think of building anything, as long as these departments are not radically reformed.

    Any serious action cannot see the light of day, if it doesn't start from here.It pains me to say it, but it is a fact.
     
  18. loubnaniTO

    loubnaniTO Legendary Member
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    absolutely, a registry is not limited to child abuses... it extends to all sex offenders.
     
  19. Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal Legendary Member
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    Even more. I would see that a law enforcement agency, that has the task of discretely monitoring and following up certain categories of ex-felons and ex-criminals, could be efficient and very beneficial, to the whole law enforcement process. I think it might be complicated to establish in big countries, but in a small country like Lebanon, I am more than sure that it can be extremely easy to operate and valuable in its results.
     
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