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Do you think Lebanese Muslims are to blame for Lebanon's demise?

NewLeb

NewLeb

Member
Muslims never accepted a Christian presence from the Mamlouk to the Otomans to now. Christians never accepted to live like Dhimmis or under Muslim rule.

But overall Christians are facing a Muslim expansion from the birth of Islam until today
What does “Christian presence” mean? Christian communities still exist after centuries of Muslim rule, and there are plenty of churches in the modern-day Gulf Peninsula.
 
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  • Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    What does “Christian presence” mean? Christian communities still exist after centuries of Muslim rule, and there are plenty of churches in the modern-day Gulf Peninsula.
    Autonomous rule or political rights.

    No MENA Christian has any except Lebanese Christians.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    Member
    Autonomous rule or political rights.

    No MENA Christian has any except Lebanese Christians.
    Sure, but that’s only because of Lebanon’s unique demographics. There’s just not enough Lebanese Christians (in Lebanon) to warrant total Christian rule, but federalism is always an option.
     
    V

    vicking747

    Member
    What does “Christian presence” mean? Christian communities still exist after centuries of Muslim rule, and there are plenty of churches in the modern-day Gulf Peninsula.
    I mean not living like Dhimmis. Christian political presence which is the only part that can bring prosperity. Muslims were never able to bring prosperity as they would be englued in wars or would not be able to forgive or turn the page quickly. Compare Christian’s pardon to Syria to Muslims pardon to Israel,.. if it was up to Christians, we would have found a way to strike a peace agreement with Israelis.

    Christians don’t have eternal enemies and it would be a religious sin which is the opposite of the Muslims who believe they would get rewarded by God if they fight with Israel
     
    Dynamis

    Dynamis

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Historically, Lebanese Christians have always embraced a nationalistic agenda, which focused on Lebanon's sovereignty and distancing from regional conflicts.

    Lebanese Muslims, on the other hand, have often put regional interests above their country's, be it Pan-Arabism or the liberation of Palestine. Lebanon's sovereignty wasn't always on their list priorities, as they favored unity with the Arab world.

    Let's examine these four points:

    1-The 1958 crisis:
    Lebanese Muslims pushed the government to join the newly created United Arab Republic, while the Christians wanted to keep Lebanon aligned with Western powers. The crisis caused a brief civil war.

    2-Lebanese Civil War: Muslims allied with the PLO, turning Lebanon into a launch pad for attacks against Israel.

    3-Lebanese-Israeli conflict: Muslims opposed the May 17 Agreement of 1983, which could have resulted in a peace treaty with Israel.

    4-Lebanese-Syria conflict: While most Lebanese fought Syrian occupation, the Shiites supported it, and were even sad to see Syrian forces leave Lebanon.

    Taking the the aforementioned points into account, do you think Lebanon would have been better off as a purely Christian country?
    Do you think the Christians' neutral policies could have spared Lebanon all these wars?
    Muslims are not a monolith. However, I do blame the mostly Sunni Muslim religious and political leaders for Lebanon's demise. The Sunni political and religious class has NEVER believed in Lebanon as an independent entity from the rest of the Sunni world. They were always agents of mischief in this republic.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    Member
    I mean not living like Dhimmis. Christian political presence which is the only part that can bring prosperity. Muslims were never able to bring prosperity as they would be englued in wars or would not be able to forgive or turn the page quickly. Compare Christian’s pardon to Syria to Muslims pardon to Israel,.. if it was up to Christians, we would have found a way to strike a peace agreement with Israelis.

    Christians don’t have eternal enemies and it would be a religious sin which is the opposite of the Muslims who believe they would get rewarded by God if they fight with Israel
    Given that Lebanese Christians are more influenced by modern Western standards, they tend to be more well-off and educated than their Muslim counterparts. This is especially the case when considering that Christians had the powerful backing of France (and the Catholic Church), which ensured them better economical and political rights. This is one reason for example why poor Shiite familes send their kids to Catholic schools.

    You can’t say Muslims didn’t bring prosperity. Say what you want about him, but Rafiq Hariri was a billionaire who did put a lot of money in rebuilding Lebanon (or at least Beirut). Again, this was mainly because of his Western education and ties with Western forces, but it does show us that Lebanese Muslims don’t necessarily have to go down the same route that the typical rag-head Arab does....
     
    Dynamis

    Dynamis

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Given that Lebanese Christians are more influenced by modern Western standards, they tend to be more well-off and educated than their Muslim counterparts. This is especially the case when considering that Christians had the powerful backing of France (and the Catholic Church), which ensured them better economical and political rights. This is one reason for example why poor Shiite familes send their kids to Catholic schools.

    You can’t say Muslims didn’t bring prosperity. Say what you want about him, but Rafiq Hariri was a billionaire who did put a lot of money in rebuilding Lebanon (or at least Beirut). Again, this was mainly because of his Western education and ties with Western forces.
    That is all stereotype. 40% of Lebanese Christians are not Maronite or Catholic...The Orthodox, Armenians, Syriacs, etc were poor but hard-working. Same for the Maronites. You are taking a very narrow view. The Mercantile Sunni Class and the religious Sunni leadership are a real cancer in Lebanon in addition to Jumblatt and his lackies.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    Member
    That is all stereotype. 40% of Lebanese Christians are not Maronite or Catholic...The Orthodox, Armenians, Syriacs, etc were poor but hard-working. Same for the Maronites. You are taking a very narrow view. The Mercantile Sunni Class and the religious Sunni leadership are a real cancer in Lebanon in addition to Jumblatt and his lackies.
    Poor and hard-working does not translate into political dominance. You need money for that, and the Catholic Church has a lot of it.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Given that Lebanese Christians are more influenced by modern Western standards, they tend to be more well-off and educated than their Muslim counterparts. This is especially the case when considering that Christians had the powerful backing of France (and the Catholic Church), which ensured them better economical and political rights. This is one reason for example why poor Shiite familes send their kids to Catholic schools.

    You can’t say Muslims didn’t bring prosperity. Say what you want about him, but Rafiq Hariri was a billionaire who did put a lot of money in rebuilding Lebanon (or at least Beirut). Again, this was mainly because of his Western education and ties with Western forces, but it does show us that Lebanese Muslims don’t necessarily have to go down the same route that the typical rag-head Arab does....
    This is complete BS

    Literacy rate is pretty much equal among the sects.

    France did not offer any advantages to anyone, christians had a slightly head start because of missionary schools and early mass emigration.

    Now it all evened out, arguably reversed in some cases.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    Member
    This is complete BS

    Literacy rate is pretty much equal among the sects.

    France did not offer any advantages to anyone, christians had a slightly head start because of missionary schools and early mass emigration.

    Now it all evened out, arguably reversed in some cases.
    Literacy rates? I’m talking about things like the Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and the Industrial Revolution... and you bring up literacy rates???
     
    Elvis left the building

    Elvis left the building

    Legendary Member
    Historically, Lebanese Christians have always embraced a nationalistic agenda, which focused on Lebanon's sovereignty and distancing from regional conflicts.

    Lebanese Muslims, on the other hand, have often put regional interests above their country's, be it Pan-Arabism or the liberation of Palestine. Lebanon's sovereignty wasn't always on their list priorities, as they favored unity with the Arab world.

    Let's examine these four points:

    1-The 1958 crisis:
    Lebanese Muslims pushed the government to join the newly created United Arab Republic, while the Christians wanted to keep Lebanon aligned with Western powers. The crisis caused a brief civil war.

    2-Lebanese Civil War: Muslims allied with the PLO, turning Lebanon into a launch pad for attacks against Israel.

    3-Lebanese-Israeli conflict: Muslims opposed the May 17 Agreement of 1983, which could have resulted in a peace treaty with Israel.

    4-Lebanese-Syria conflict: While most Lebanese fought Syrian occupation, the Shiites supported it, and were even sad to see Syrian forces leave Lebanon.

    Taking the the aforementioned points into account, do you think Lebanon would have been better off as a purely Christian country?
    Do you think the Christians' neutral policies could have spared Lebanon all these wars?
    a series of unfortunate bad decisions were indeed made by most if not all of political islamic parties

    thankfully, we christians rectified this balance when our FPMers and Geageaist also took decisions that doomed the country

    before those 2 came along the national cancer was pretty much one sided
     
    V

    vicking747

    Member
    Overall I don’t believe in countries where multiple religions coexist.
    Lebanon would be advanced at peace with its neighbours if only Christians.

    Muslims create their own misery and are becoming too behind on the technology and science part. Soon you will have colonies in Space while Muslims would still be fighting among each other.

    We will all be judged when we die, and better to follow the teaching of God, Jesus as he won over the death by resurrecting which is not the case of a single Islamic figure
     
    latinorange

    latinorange

    Well-Known Member
    This whole thread topic is misleading but for the sake of debate...

    Some here continue to believe that France had a real and genuine interest in creating a safe haven for christians in the region. You are so naive. Early XX century Republican France never gave a fk about a bunch of old time christians forgoten in the middle east. They faced tough resistance from the muslims and druze in Syria and so they had to settle for christians as temporary allies. The creation of Lebanon in its new borders was a trap, and the french knew it wouldnt work. There is books about it in which french officials state it. It will not work. It is a joke of a system in a joke of a fake country just made up using impossible formulas in the most unstable region in the world. They knew they would have a chance to come back at some point. And they will.

    About muslims being to blame for i dont know what. One could ask the opposite question. Why did many lebanese christians chose to side with the west and israel in the 50s turning their backs on their egyptian or syrian brothers, whose christians were courageously fighting Israel and western collonialism in the region.
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    Member
    Overall I don’t believe in countries where multiple religions coexist.
    Lebanon would be advanced at peace with its neighbours if only Christians.

    Muslims create their own misery and are becoming too behind on the technology and science part. Soon you will have colonies in Space while Muslims would still be fighting among each other.

    We will all be judged when we die, and better to follow the teaching of God, Jesus as he won over the death by resurrecting which is not the case of a single Islamic figure
    US of A is a of multi ethnic multi religious country. They are doing just fine.
     
    latinorange

    latinorange

    Well-Known Member
    Overall I don’t believe in countries where multiple religions coexist.
    Lebanon would be advanced at peace with its neighbours if only Christians.

    Muslims create their own misery and are becoming too behind on the technology and science part. Soon you will have colonies in Space while Muslims would still be fighting among each other.

    We will all be judged when we die, and better to follow the teaching of God, Jesus as he won over the death by resurrecting which is not the case of a single Islamic figure
    You continue to think, talk, move, dance, walk, breath, marry from a "christian" perspective...
    Christians continue to believe that we all must be aware of their Christianity at all times...bro we know you are christian and it is fine, nobody wanna kill u and honestly nobody gives a fk...in fact some of you are more radical and narrow minded than most muslims.

    You live in the middle of a sea of muslims...you should ask yourself one thing. Why is it that the west put all its weight behind israel and the jews? Why are they all ready to finance israel and go to war and sanction its enemies and fk up the whole region just for the sake of a jewish state? Instead, middle eastern christians were abandoned and continue to be left aside by the same western powers you desperately look up to. France, your saviour, does not care for you. You should have integrated into the arab world and supported liberal arab movements even if that meant giving up thinking sectarian. Your forefathers were living in lalaland and were not smart enough. They thought they had foreign backup. After 70 years you are broke and nobody came to the rescue.

    My intention is to make you understand that the west does not think in terms of christian vs muslim. You are all alone in that thought...you are so concerned about your christianity, its decadence and survival that you are blind to see. The west is non religious. It is a brutal capitalist system that only thinks rich vs poor. Business and trade is what matters. Muslims are more than welcome as long as they facilitate business and trade. Poor muslims are conquered and humiliated, just as poor christians are. Why? because you have nothing to offer. Only religious tales.

    This last comment about Jesus, well...i have my own thoughts. Out of respect i will only say that the fact that islam does not have a single resurrection story to tell should make you raise an eyebrow or two...it is not necessarily a matter of pride., if you know what i mean.
     
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