Does the FPM as a Party Want Peace with Israehell

Peace agreement with Israel?


  • Total voters
    26
Frisbeetarian

Frisbeetarian

Legendary Member
Let me ask you two questions:

What has Lebanon gained by HA claiming they will destroy Israel?

What would Lebanon lose if HA stopped making such remarks and instead focused on international diplomacy?
You don't do diplomacy with the threat of a gun pointed at your head. That's called capitulation. It may be hard for you to absorb; but have you considered that maybe, just maybe Israel and the U.S are the aggressors? Radical idea i know...
 
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  • Frisbeetarian

    Frisbeetarian

    Legendary Member
    Actually, I have two: the Armenian genocide and the Lebanese civil war.
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    New Member
    The thing is, if the majority of the population in the British Mandate at the time was Christian, there would've been no wars. Christians would've accepted sharing the land with our persecuted Jewish brothers. The reason Arab Muslims decided to not only not accept the partition plan but also launch a war on poor Holocaust survivors was 100% based on their religious views.
    You know PLO were secular right? and most who sympathized with them were very left leaning secular parties and druze right? like Kamal Jumblatt's PSP. Also, the SSNP were majority Christians and sympathized with the Palestinian cause. Shias for example did not really care until Israel started land grabbing in the South in 1976 till 2000. You knew that right? and btw did you know the Vatican opposed the Israel state until the early 1990s? so I think it's naive to say there wouldn't have been any war. War was inevitable after the nakba of 1948. Everything could have been avoided if the Balfour declaration never materialized and followers of the Jewish faith would have just moved into Palestine rather than forcing their identity on other people who have been in those lands for such a long time.
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    New Member
    I did not miss anything. You are arguing in circles. Either your ultimate goal is peace, or you want a perpetual state of war. If it's the former, one must act accordingly. So far, based on HA's claims and behaviour, they want the latter.
    Oh please.

    You completely missed my point on occupation. You don't sympathize with others and you don't understand why we are in a state of war. You are claiming that it's always HA's fault but reject that Israel were the aggressors from the very beginning starting in 1976 when they started occupying land. Then they used their puppets the SLA to do their dirty work by torturing and killing civilians who were against the occupation. You want to know why HA are the way they are? because of those events.

    I want what is best for the country, and if it is a peace treaty under very favorable terms for Lebanon then so be it, but if it's just a peace treaty for the sake of it and would be detrimental to our sovereignty then forget it.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    I salute your patience in spoon feeding her.
     
    Rafidi

    Rafidi

    Legendary Member
    You know PLO were secular right? and most who sympathized with them were very left leaning secular parties and druze right? like Kamal Jumblatt's PSP. Also, the SSNP were majority Christians and sympathized with the Palestinian cause. Shias for example did not really care until Israel started land grabbing in the South in 1976 till 2000. You knew that right? and btw did you know the Vatican opposed the Israel state until the early 1990s? so I think it's naive to say there wouldn't have been any war. War was inevitable after the nakba of 1948. Everything could have been avoided if the Balfour declaration never materialized and followers of the Jewish faith would have just moved into Palestine rather than forcing their identity on other people who have been in those lands for such a long time.
    They never intended to move in and coexist or live and let live. They came with a racist, apartheid ideology- Zionism; to impose themselves and cleanse others. That isnt/wasnt peaceful.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    Why were the phalanges created?
    In fear and response to what and who?
    Ufos??
    Muslims should not complain about fascism when the whole Islamic doctrine is fascist and totalitarian, and they were the first allies of fascist europe in order to persecute Jews. Hitler is still popular today in the middle east. Russia and England, the enemies had to invade iran to keep nazis out and away from their iranian allies.
     
    Nevermore

    Nevermore

    New Member
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    Your description of the causes of the civil war precludes a basic understanding of what "systemic injustices" entail and how that might have been the cause of a war between different groups - one seeking greater political power, and the other seeking to maintain their survival in an increasingly hostile environment. Given that the same exact conditions that you've outlined applied to my Christian Beqaai family, telling us your personal sob story doesn't indicate any systemic injustices against a particular group, but against a whole population of working people, Muslim or Christian. According to you, however, those working class Christians were all fascists, and the Muslim elite who were already in power (and seeking more), consented, condoned, and actively reinforced the system, including Kamal Jumblatt, are absolved of wrongdoing. Please try harder.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Oh please.

    You completely missed my point on occupation. You don't sympathize with others and you don't understand why we are in a state of war. You are claiming that it's always HA's fault but reject that Israel were the aggressors from the very beginning starting in 1976 when they started occupying land. Then they used their puppets the SLA to do their dirty work by torturing and killing civilians who were against the occupation. You want to know why HA are the way they are? because of those events.

    I want what is best for the country, and if it is a peace treaty under very favorable terms for Lebanon then so be it, but if it's just a peace treaty for the sake of it and would be detrimental to our sovereignty then forget it.
    Read the parts in red, then re-read my posts in this thread.

    This whole post is a strawman.
     
    Frisbeetarian

    Frisbeetarian

    Legendary Member
    Your description of the causes of the civil war precludes a basic understanding of what "systemic injustices" entail and how that might have been the cause of a war between different groups - one seeking greater political power, and the other seeking to maintain their survival in an increasingly hostile environment. Given that the same exact conditions that you've outlined applied to my Christian Beqaai family, telling us your personal sob story doesn't indicate any systemic injustices against a particular group, but against a whole population of working people, Muslim or Christian. According to you, however, those working class Christians were all fascists, and the Muslim elite who were already in power (and seeking more), consented, condoned, and actively reinforced the system, including Kamal Jumblatt, are absolved of wrongdoing. Please try harder.
    Were there Christian Fascist parties? Yes. Does that mean that all christian parties were fascists? Of course not. That's obvious, but you're sadly trying to hard at a gotcha.

    I generally agree that the conflict was and is directed at the working class. At the same time we have to remember that the ruling oligarchy was mainly composed of Maronite Christians who were installed by the French. That sectarian formulation is intimitately reflected in development levels across Lebanon. That social and economic divide even persists to this day. To point it out and make sense of the structure of the ruling oligarchy is not an indictment directed against Christians. But rather is a formulation that seeks to highlight the sectarian nature of the corruption that grips Lebanon.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    If it is only talk, talk without walking the walk then you might be right here..

    But honestly I would't make a big deal about HA threatening so called Israel because destruction is already among us and the country is living it already!

    The destruction was upon on us from the moment the British created this Zionist disease in the heart of our region!

    International diplomacy was never on our side to begin with and there is zero faith in it for the vast majority of people of this region!
    Just take example of the Oslo accord or the Joulan Heights and how much diplomacy and international law was respected there!

    You were specifically talking about peace and how the weaker side is not allowing peace!
    Clearly, you have no clue how diplomacy works. If you insist on saying that your aim is to destroy another country, you lose your ability to then negotiate a peaceful agreement. No one will take you seriously.

    As you said, what HA is doing is "just talk" to flex their muscles. But when it comes to being tough in negotiations, in a way that would truly yield positive results for Lebanon, they fail big time.

    So now please answer my questions the one I asked you :)

    How come that you always feel for the so called Israel but never feel for us?
    I feel sorry for Lebanon for being stuck in the battle between zionists and islamists.

    That's what I feel sorry for.
     
    Frisbeetarian

    Frisbeetarian

    Legendary Member
    Why were the phalanges created?
    Same as all other ultra right fascist anti communist paramilitary forces around the world.

    Muslims should not complain about fascism when the whole Islamic doctrine is fascist and totalitarian, and they were the first allies of fascist europe in order to persecute Jews. Hitler is still popular today in the middle east. Russia and England, the enemies had to invade iran to keep nazis out and away from their iranian allies.
    Ya3ne saraha ya raytak khrit w ma hkit.

    There weren't even a hundred nazi advisors in the entirety of Iran when the USSR and the British invaded. They just used the pretext of Nazi involvement as a means to grab resource rich regions. They went ahead and reoccupied the country by overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953.
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Spare us your fascist christian indoctrination. The people of this region whether Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other denomination will not break under domination no matter how severe. Your sectarianism is a testament to how indoctrinated and servile you've become. Ma byenfa3 el 2a3de b Canada wel tonzir men wara el computer ya indie.
    The area 'ruled by muslims' is dotted with American bases and puppet regimes subservient to imperialism. Lovely how hate can make you blind to even obvious facts around you.
    You don't do diplomacy with the threat of a gun pointed at your head. That's called capitulation. It may be hard for you to absorb; but have you considered that maybe, just maybe Israel and the U.S are the aggressors? Radical idea i know...
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    Your rants have failed to addresse my point: for the Christians of Lebanon, the islamists you identify with are oppressors and colonialists. You don't want to be ruled by westerners, and Christians don't want to be ruled by islamists. You could simply say "fair enough." Instead you choose to have a temper tantrum and call others names for having different experiences and a different worldview from you.

    You act like a perpetual victim; but history doesn't start when you want it to start. The whole Levant, Turkey, and North Africa used to be part of "the west." Cleopatra was Greek. The Berbers were Christian. Constantinople was a Christian capital. Muslims took all of that through centuries of violent conquests, reducing some people to slavery, arriving at the gates of Vienna in an attempt to conquer Europe. But here you are playing the victim over the tiny parcels of land called Israel and Lebanon...WHICH WERE PART OF THE WEST TO BEGIN WITH.

    Oh but you poor thing didn't have a TV until the 60's and had to travel on donkeys. Well guess what, Armenians at the time couldn't even afford donkeys, and many didn't have a telephone or TV well into the 80's. So spare us your crocodile tears!
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Same as all other ultra right fascist anti communist paramilitary forces around the world.



    Ya3ne saraha ya raytak khrit w ma hkit.

    There weren't even a hundred nazi advisors in the entirety of Iran when the USSR and the British invaded. They just used the pretext of Nazi involvement as a means to grab resource rich regions. They went ahead and reoccupied the country by overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953.
    You haven't addressed anything.
    Why were the phalanges created?

    100 nazi advisors? 3addaytoun? You proved my point that the muslim world was pro fascism and nazism. Similar doctrines, goals and totalitarian practices.

    Since you are googling what I m feeding you, perhaps you could look at what the Egyptians promised the nazis if they ever make it to Egypt.

    As for you crying and playing the victim about your bekaa without electricity, this happens in every country where the development is concentrated around the big cities. Even in the us and europe.
    Of course you sectarian fascist mind turned in t into persecution of the muslims by the Christian govt, as if the Christian villages and population had better infrastructure in the bekaa.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    As for you crying and playing the victim about your bekaa without electricity, this happens in every country where the development is concentrated around the big cities. Even in the us and europe.
    Of course you sectarian fascist mind turned in t into persecution of the muslims by the Christian govt, as if the Christian villages and population had better infrastructure in the bekaa.
    I have to disagree with you on this. Throughout Lebanon's history, the Shiite community has always suffered from deprivation and marginalization.
    Yes, Christians living in the Bekaa suffered equally, but Shiite-majority areas as a whole were much more neglected than say Mount Lebanon, Batroun or the Chouf.

    By reducing the issue to a matter of centralization, you are whitewashing Lebanese modern history and the motives behind the civil war.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    I have to disagree with you on this. Throughout Lebanon's history, the Shiite community has always suffered from deprivation and marginalization.
    Yes, Christians living in the Bekaa suffered equally, but Shiite-majority areas as a whole were much more neglected than say Mount Lebanon, Batroun or the Chouf.

    By reducing the issue to a matter of centralization, you are whitewashing Lebanese modern history and the motives behind the civil war.
    The civil war was mainly between Sunnis-plo- leftists- druze agaisnt the christians.

    Let's agree that druze and Sunnis were not lacking resources, opportunities, or discriminated against. And that was not the cause of the war. This will not pass.

    Shias lived along other communities in the far regions and I agree, the rural areas were not the most developed and not much better today. It is worst in fact.
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    New Member
    The civil war was mainly between Sunnis-plo- leftists- druze agaisnt the christians.

    Let's agree that druze and Sunnis were not lacking resources, opportunities, or discriminated against. And that was not the cause of the war. This will not pass.

    Shias lived along other communities in the far regions and I agree, the rural areas were not the most developed and not much better today. It is worst in fact.
    Shia akalo kakha when the PLO entered then when the Israelis took their place. I remember my grandfather used to tell me how the PLO took his bistan and claimed it to be PLO property. Even Imam Mousa El Sadr asked Sheikh Pierre Gmeyel to help him against the PLO in Dahye back in the late 70s (I think it was in 77?) during the civil war. It's because of what @AtheistForYeezus said is what made it easier for Iran to sow seeds of their political ambitions in Lebanon and what made it worse is having Israel occupying the south for more than 20 years, even after when the PLO left Lebanese lands.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Shia akalo kakha when the PLO entered then when the Israelis took their place. I remember my grandfather used to tell me how the PLO took his bistan and claimed it to be PLO property. Even Imam Mousa El Sadr asked Sheikh Pierre Gmeyel to help him against the PLO in Dahye back in the late 70s (I think it was in 77?) during the civil war. It's because of what @AtheistForYeezus said is what made it easier for Iran to sow seeds of their political ambitions in Lebanon and what made it worse is having Israel occupying the south for more than 20 years, even after when the PLO left Lebanese lands.
    I am not arguing that.

    However the shias were not involved directly in the initial clashes in Beirut and surrounding.

    The good relationship between al Sadr and gemayels is very well known to many. Unfortunately forgotten today through the waves of propaganda.
     
    Nevermore

    Nevermore

    New Member
    Were there Christian Fascist parties? Yes. Does that mean that all christian parties were fascists? Of course not. That's obvious, but you're sadly trying to hard at a gotcha.

    I generally agree that the conflict was and is directed at the working class. At the same time we have to remember that the ruling oligarchy was mainly composed of Maronite Christians who were installed by the French. That sectarian formulation is intimitately reflected in development levels across Lebanon. That social and economic divide even persists to this day. To point it out and make sense of the structure of the ruling oligarchy is not an indictment directed against Christians. But rather is a formulation that seeks to highlight the sectarian nature of the corruption that grips Lebanon.
    OK, but still not entirely true. The elites were both Maronite and Sunni Muslim. You’re ignoring the disproportionate hold the Sunni and Druze elite had on the Muslim side of the state and their full willingness to partake in the system as is. Ghandour, Spinneys, countless others were companies owned and managed by Sunni Beiruti elite families. It wasn't just the Maronites who prevented development in the South and Beqaa, in fact, they most likely played a secondary role in that regard.

    If the state was so disproportionately in the hands of the Maronites, how was it possible that many Sunni Muslims and Druze openly benefitted from it as well? It serves to ask this question because there was no straightforward hegemonic culture in the Lebanese state, but competing ideologies. It doesn't stand to reason, then, that the the National Movement militias were fighting against "systemic injustice" when they simultaneously benefitted from it. Maybe the best sign of the Maronites’ inability to fully control the state was their lack of control over the army and the ease with which it was split and its elements aligning with the National Movement.

    Tangentially, the sectarian formulation is not solely a manifestation of French colonialism, but of 400+ years of developments in Ottoman administration. Our analysis wouldn’t be complete if we divorced Lebanon’s politics from the region, correct? Lebanon inherited a lot more from the 400+ years of Ottoman rule than it had from the ~25 years of French rule. The entire millet divisions, coupled with the Tanzimat reforms, were the basis of the sectarian divisions in the Lebanese state as well as some of the roots of the economic divide.
     
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