Does the FPM as a Party Want Peace with Israehell

Peace agreement with Israel?


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Frisbeetarian

Frisbeetarian

Legendary Member
OK, but still not entirely true. The elites were both Maronite and Sunni Muslim. You’re ignoring the disproportionate hold the Sunni and Druze elite had on the Muslim side of the state and their full willingness to partake in the system as is. Ghandour, Spinneys, countless others were companies owned and managed by Sunni Beiruti elite families. It wasn't just the Maronites who prevented development in the South and Beqaa, in fact, they most likely played a secondary role in that regard.
Yes some prominent Sunni families were allowed to partake in the power structure. But the way Lebanon was set up by the French dictated Maronite supremacy in the hierarchy of sectarian rule. This rule isn't just about control of the state but of the country's resources and points of trade. This is still reflected in the way the social and economic capital is distributed in the country today. For instance the Maronite Church alone is the biggest landowner in Lebanon. That's discounting all the other land owned by the sectarian aristocracies.

If the state was so disproportionately in the hands of the Maronites, how was it possible that many Sunni Muslims and Druze openly benefitted from it as well?
Because that was the nature of the power 'sharing' agreement.

It serves to ask this question because there was no straightforward hegemonic culture in the Lebanese state, but competing ideologies.
We're not talking about a hegemonic ideology but a hegemonic sectarian ruling class that was artificially implanted by the French.

It doesn't stand to reason, then, that the the National Movement militias were fighting against "systemic injustice" when they simultaneously benefitted from it. Maybe the best sign of the Maronites’ inability to fully control the state was their lack of control over the army and the ease with which it was split and its elements aligning with the National Movement.
This broaches a different topic that we could delve into on its own.

Tangentially, the sectarian formulation is not solely a manifestation of French colonialism, but of 400+ years of developments in Ottoman administration. Our analysis wouldn’t be complete if we divorced Lebanon’s politics from the region, correct? Lebanon inherited a lot more from the 400+ years of Ottoman rule than it had from the ~25 years of French rule. The entire millet divisions, coupled with the Tanzimat reforms, were the basis of the sectarian divisions in the Lebanese state as well as some of the roots of the economic divide.
I would be inclined to disagree here as the notion of the sectarian bureaucratic state that france tried to implement in Lebanon was to be modeled along the nation building experiment that it underwent during the 19th century. Would you have supporting sources that delve into the issue with more detail?
 
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  • Muki

    Muki

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    The Jews control Jerusalem.

    To22o mouto @O Brother @Rafidi :cigar:
     
    Nonan

    Nonan

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    Yes some prominent Sunni families were allowed to partake in the power structure. But the way Lebanon was set up by the French dictated Maronite supremacy in the hierarchy of sectarian rule. This rule isn't just about control of the state but of the country's resources and points of trade. This is still reflected in the way the social and economic capital is distributed in the country today. For instance the Maronite Church alone is the biggest landowner in Lebanon. That's discounting all the other land owned by the sectarian aristocracies.



    Because that was the nature of the power 'sharing' agreement.



    We're not talking about a hegemonic ideology but a hegemonic sectarian ruling class that was artificially implanted by the French.



    This broaches a different topic that we could delve into on its own.



    I would be inclined to disagree here as the notion of the sectarian bureaucratic state that france tried to implement in Lebanon was to be modeled along the nation building experiment that it underwent during the 19th century. Would you have supporting sources that delve into the issue with more detail?
    Sectarian and French administration don’t mix. I think you’re giving too much credit to the Maronites as a community. The reality is that the French administration had to compose with a heavily feudal system that predated it and was nurtured under the Ottoman rule. What you’re calling Maronite domination was simply the removal of discriminatory rules from the Ottoman days (eg a Christian was not allowed to ride a horse through a Muslim village). That balancing of power, with the larger Maronite population and existing feudal system may have given the impression of Maronite privilege but it was far from it. The proof was in the 1958 revolt, the 1969 Cairo agreement, and the 1973 mini Sunnite revolt to stop the Army from quashing the Palestinian takeover of the country.
    The rest is history
     
    Nonan

    Nonan

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    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    And your view of how the war started is completely one sided too. Tell me, how did the Palestinian takeover help the impoverished areas in Lebanon from all communities. The “Atraf” are not only Shiites, they are also Maronites, Sunnites, Greek Orthodox. The only ones who didn’t live in the Atraf were the Druze.

    what’s next? You’re going to tell me that Joumblatt is a socialist and was fighting for social justice?
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

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    Sectarian and French administration don’t mix. I think you’re giving too much credit to the Maronites as a community. The reality is that the French administration had to compose with a heavily feudal system that predated it and was nurtured under the Ottoman rule. What you’re calling Maronite domination was simply the removal of discriminatory rules from the Ottoman days (eg a Christian was not allowed to ride a horse through a Muslim village). That balancing of power, with the larger Maronite population and existing feudal system may have given the impression of Maronite privilege but it was far from it. The proof was in the 1958 revolt, the 1969 Cairo agreement, and the 1973 mini Sunnite revolt to stop the Army from quashing the Palestinian takeover of the country.
    The rest is history

    What happened in 1973?
     
    Nonan

    Nonan

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    Muki

    Muki

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    And your view of how the war started is completely one sided too. Tell me, how did the Palestinian takeover help the impoverished areas in Lebanon from all communities. The “Atraf” are not only Shiites, they are also Maronites, Sunnites, Greek Orthodox. The only ones who didn’t live in the Atraf were the Druze.

    what’s next? You’re going to tell me that Joumblatt is a socialist and was fighting for social justice?
    His Palestinian friends liberated us in the South. Sorry, I should say they liberated our Christian villages from their Christian inhabitants. And where they failed, we thank Israel and no one else.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    Muslims rejected the idea of a Greater Lebanon at the time, in favor of merging with Syria.
    They feared they would be treated as second-class citizens in a Maronite-majority country.

    It's Maronites, and to some extent the Druze, who were most enthusiastic about the idea of a Lebanese state.

    You mean the Maronite/Western conception of a Lebanese state. Even without Christianity, a Lebanese identity can still exist.

    However, Christians in Lebanon do give the country an edge that isn’t found in other Middle Eastern countries.
     
    Genius

    Genius

    Legendary Member
    Yes some prominent Sunni families were allowed to partake in the power structure. But the way Lebanon was set up by the French dictated Maronite supremacy in the hierarchy of sectarian rule. This rule isn't just about control of the state but of the country's resources and points of trade. This is still reflected in the way the social and economic capital is distributed in the country today. For instance the Maronite Church alone is the biggest landowner in Lebanon. That's discounting all the other land owned by the sectarian aristocracies.



    Because that was the nature of the power 'sharing' agreement.



    We're not talking about a hegemonic ideology but a hegemonic sectarian ruling class that was artificially implanted by the French.



    This broaches a different topic that we could delve into on its own.



    I would be inclined to disagree here as the notion of the sectarian bureaucratic state that france tried to implement in Lebanon was to be modeled along the nation building experiment that it underwent during the 19th century. Would you have supporting sources that delve into the issue with more detail?
    When did the church become the landowners? Chi beda7ik. The french 2al.

    The three main cities in lebanon are mainly owned by Sunnis and still are. Except for a small part of avhrafyeh, where orthodox live, maronites lived in poor suburbs and ghettos. Just like the Shiites settled in da7yeh.

    By the way
    I have the number of schools and public hospitals in all the regions and their development since 1920. One day if I have the time wil jledeh I will post them. You will be surprised how much hate and propaganda you are fed and repeating it ... non sense.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    I think if Hassan Nassrala doesnt care about fighting corruption I dont the hell care about him or his party or his war with Israel...
    The jews are older then muslims in this land.. Its theirs, muslims took it by force...
    Jews are fighting back to re-take it... get over it..
    Correction... the Muslims conquered Palestine. The Arabs didn’t inject their own population into the country like the European Jews did (and are doing).
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
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    Hi, my favorite Armenian w*t**.

    Your claim is that Israehell does not broadcast regular speeches about their goal to destroy Lebanon, no matter what!!! What a claim. Let's see the facts from 2014, 2017, 2018. And while checking on those facts, and while you claim Israehell does not threaten to destroy Lebanon, well, they actually do not even need to...well, because they always have destroyed Lebanon. Actions speak louder than words.

    Lebanon will be blown back to the ‘Stone Age,’ Minister Katz warns

    Israel will return Lebanon to the Stone Age: minister


    Israel Threatens to Return Lebanon to Stone Age after Nasrallah Speech
    All these were in response to genocidal threats by Iran and their proxy, Hizbullah. It's right there in your links lol.

    Glad you're listening, though. You know the consequences of your actions and you can't pretend ignorance.

    Also, mods need to do their jobs.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    Please, yawn more, it's entertaining :lol:

    Is Jordan enjoying peace or not? Do you see Jordanians in western ghettos as refugees? No you don't. You see yourself and other Lebanese. This, despite Jordan being at the core of your WWI & II conspiracies against your umma. So, finally thank you for asking the straight question thus giving me a second chance to spoon feed you :)

    1- By signing Cairo agreement under the pressure of the then Arabic umma leaders - mainly Syria and Egypt backed by the khalijis- the ruling Maronite elite allowed a foreign bunch of gangsters to bring in their heavy and light weapons from Jordan that had expelled them, into Lebanon. According to the agreement, your army, consequently your own state, was denied control over the heavily armed camps where the bustards now had moved. Contemplate that. Imagine Sweden allowing you and its Somali refugees to stash canons, RPG's and automatic guns in the ghettos where they live.. LOL. Got the picture dude Bro.

    2- The Palestinians arms served the Lebanese leftists and Arabic umma wankers in their initially just demands for political reforms. The ruling Maronites never saw it coming, despite the strong warning of the 1958 events. Instead of taking the initiative and reform the political system to allow for the power share with their muslim partners, they kept yawning, just like you do now, unaware of the inevitable change. Enter PLO and the Syrians meddling in arming their gangs and amplifying our sectarian and ideological divisions. => Civil war.

    And this is the short story explaining why you are a refugee under an infidel roof.
    Objections 7abibi?
    If you can see this so clearly, it begs the question as to why you do not see Iran's gangsters in the same manner.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    I go a lot to Jordan for work, I don't think they are enjoying their peace as much as you think they are. The peace treaty they signed with Israel was not favorable towards the Jordanians and now there a lot of political tensions between them because of Netenyahu's willingness to annex the West bank. Plus there are a lot of Palestinian refugees in Amman.
    In what ways has the peace treaty harmed Jordan?
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
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    We get it bro, you dislike Islam.

    In any event, yes, the Jews were able to defeat the Arabs numerous times. But that’s mostly because the Arabs were all divided and corrupt to begin with.

    Now, are the Jews able to defeat a truly united Muslim force?

    Don’t bet on it. ;)
    I think hell will freeze before you see such a "united" Muzzie force. That you can bet on.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    The Jews are older than the Christians on earth. The earth is theirs. All other religions that came after Judaism or were instituted after Judaism had aliens from outer space embrace those religions. They dont belong to the earth...all Christians and Muslims should leave the earth for outer space, and allow the Jews to have peace on earth.
    Now you're talking. Baddi e3zmak 3a kas 3ara2 Shay.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    no.



    Absolutely.. they drove us here, it has always been their plan, and supported by the US and other powers... no one is naive here. But what have WE done to counter it? WHAT HAVE WE DONE? filled our caves with weapons?? GREAT! Israel will not dare shoot at Lebanon, and that is our ONLY victory.
    But here is where people are NAIVE... Israel knows the resistance in lebanon is STRONG, so they haven't really shot across lebanon for almost what? 14 years? GREAT! and they will probably not do it! What did they do instead? they hit us where it hurts, where they know we are weak.... our own corruption and STUPIDITY! they know we are selfish and opportunistic and we don't think as a NATION... so they just sat back, watched us bankrupt our country, and when we started running around looking for help, they used the US and EU and IMF and WB against us. Now they are putting their own conditions.
    WHAT HAVE WE DONE to fight back AT THAT LEVEL?
    NOTHING.
    and now SHN just sweetly hammered the last nail in this coffin.
    We cannot fight corruption. We cannot salvage our economy. We are going bankrupt... BY OUR OWN DOING. Israel didn't do that to us, we bankrupted ourselves. IsraHELL was smartly waiting for us around the corner, supported by the other world powers.

    So yes, we lost... OF OUR OWN DOING.

    and if you don't like what i am saying, tell me what is your solution out of the mess we are in? a real solution, not motherhood and apple pie like we've been hearing from some of our leaders.


    I don't think anyone is supporting naturalization or giving up any inch of land (at least people around me). And we have to fight back on both levels if there are any negotiations.
    But don't come looking at me and accusing me of anything... i am not the one who is corrupt or protecting the corrupt class. I am not the one who bankrupting the country and protecting those who are corrupting the country. I have been an avid supporter of the resistance for decades, and i do not deny at all that HA was the victorious in 2006, defeating the supreme power of Israel, and if it weren't for them, ISrael would've been attacking us every now and then like they dare attack Syria without any retaliation.
    But now what?
    We are bankrupt.
    If HA wanted to win THE WHOLE WAR, it would've preemptively strengthened its position internally, not only militarily, but also economically, making sure that the country it is defending still exists. We single handedly failed our own nation.
    They didn't fail their nation because this is not their nation. They were also working towards this goal - a failed, bankrupt Lebanon, because it will make it easier for them to rule. Their economy is not Lebanon's, and the poor and hungry of their people who dare speak up about their conditions get beaten as we saw not so long ago. Entire villages forced to apologize under duress.

    I'll tell you what, though. You'll fair better when they liberate al-Quds al-mo7tal 😂.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    Sis go convince so called Israel with peace before trying to convince anyone else!

    And please tell us when did so called Israel offer the region peace and respected it?
    The Oslo accords they butchered? if we can even call that thing peace.. which screwed the Palestinian more than anything else? What happened with this peace today or what is left of it?

    I don't think you even believe so called Israel wants peace!

    Peace here means the end of this European colonial state.. this what peace means.. so they will make sure not to have peace!
    You can go shove your peace up your ass and start digging holes.
     
    Muki

    Muki

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    The area 'ruled by muslims' is dotted with American bases and puppet regimes subservient to imperialism. Lovely how hate can make you blind to even obvious facts around you.
    And all these nations dotted with American bases are prospering while your country is broke and famine is knocking on your doors. Soon you'll be subsisting on UN handouts. Let me know how that works out for ya, as your neighbors to the South offer their children a bright future.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    You description of the Lebanese civil war reveals your christian fascist phalangist mentality. The war was mainly due to systemic injustices in Lebanon. While Lebanon was being called Swisra el Shar2 you had the entire beqaa without electricity. My grandparents rode donkeys to go from town to town and the advent of a television set in my hometown in the 60s caused a ruckus. Developed areas in Lebanon concentrated in Beirut and a few areas along the coast and mountains while the rest of the country wallowed in poverty and illiteracy. But nah it was the palestinians.
    Glad you are fairing better now 😂. Li byisma3ak bi2oul li b2a3 bitsadder shi gher l7asheeshi wil zo3ran will 7aramiyyi.
     
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