Fascism & Nazism vs. Socialism

Indie

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Its both the left and the right that are on the streets...melenchons as well as lepens and both are looking to recup the movement...its not a right/left issue...
People who rant against the bourgeois are usually leftists. That being said, far-right people can have socialist ideals as well. The Nazis were socialists. It's even in their name.
 
  • Advertisement
  • Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    People who rant against the bourgeois are usually leftists. That being said, far-right people can have socialist ideals as well. The Nazis were socialists. It's even in their name.
    I think everyone should retire that whole Nazis were socialists disc they like to play at every occasion! It's in their name yes but that's where it stops! Socialists and Communists were the first victims of nazi concentration camps!

    Both the left and the right are on the streets, le Pen was among the first trying to hijack this movement as their own
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think everyone should retire that whole Nazis were socialists disc they like to play at every occasion! It's in their name yes but that's where it stops! Socialists and Communists were the first victims of nazi concentration camps!
    Like-minded people competing with each other.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    Like-minded people competing with each other.
    Lol sure! It's not at all that the name was picked to appeal to the masses and Hitler's rise to power was modelled after fascism no, it's those damn dirty socialists!

    Nazism - Wikipedia
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Lol sure! It's not at all that the name was picked to appeal to the masses and Hitler's rise to power was modelled after fascism no, it's those damn dirty socialists!

    Nazism - Wikipedia

    Fascism is a branch of socialism. This is a historical fact.


    But feel free to argue with yourself.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Fascism is a branch of socialism. This is a historical fact.


    But feel free to argue with yourself.
    It is not a fact, it is lies and misinformation.
    Citing a known propaganda medium masquerading as an academic institution does not give your claims any credence.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Fascism is a branch of socialism. This is a historical fact.


    But feel free to argue with yourself.
    all the fascist parties in europe began as either socialists or marxists. but somehow the lessons are lost despite the fact that people from that generation are still alive.

    a sample from benito mussolini:
    By now, he was one of Italy's most prominent socialists. In September 1911, Mussolini participated in a riot, led by socialists, against the Italian war in Libya. He bitterly denounced Italy's "imperialist war", an action that earned him a five-month jail term.[35] After his release he helped expel from the Socialist Party two "revisionists" who had supported the war, Ivanoe Bonomi and Leonida Bissolati. As a result, he was rewarded the editorship of the Socialist Party newspaper Avanti! Under his leadership, its circulation soon rose from 20,000 to 100,000.[36] John Gunther in 1940 called him "one of the best journalists alive"; he was a working reporter while preparing for the March on Rome, and wrote for the Hearst News Serviceuntil 1935.[23] Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[37]During this period, Mussolini, like all revolutionaries, considered himself a Marxist and he described Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."[38]
    In 1913, he published Giovanni Hus, il veridico (Jan Hus, true prophet), an historical and political biography about the life and mission of the Czech ecclesiastic reformer Jan Hus and his militant followers, the Hussites. During this socialist period of his life, Mussolini sometimes used the pen name "Vero Eretico" ("sincere heretic").[39]
    Mussolini rejected egalitarianism, a core doctrine of socialism.[6] He was influenced by Nietzsche's anti-Christian ideas and negation of God's existence. [40] Mussolini felt that socialism had faltered, in view of the failures of Marxist determinism and social democratic reformism, and believed that Nietzsche's ideas would strengthen socialism. While associated with socialism, Mussolini's writings eventually indicated that he had abandoned Marxism and egalitarianism in favor of Nietzsche's übermensch concept and anti-egalitarianism.[40]
     
    Noborders

    Noborders

    Legendary Member
    all the fascist parties in europe began as either socialists or marxists. but somehow the lessons are lost despite the fact that people from that generation are still alive.

    a sample from benito mussolini:
    By now, he was one of Italy's most prominent socialists. In September 1911, Mussolini participated in a riot, led by socialists, against the Italian war in Libya. He bitterly denounced Italy's "imperialist war", an action that earned him a five-month jail term.[35] After his release he helped expel from the Socialist Party two "revisionists" who had supported the war, Ivanoe Bonomi and Leonida Bissolati. As a result, he was rewarded the editorship of the Socialist Party newspaper Avanti! Under his leadership, its circulation soon rose from 20,000 to 100,000.[36] John Gunther in 1940 called him "one of the best journalists alive"; he was a working reporter while preparing for the March on Rome, and wrote for the Hearst News Serviceuntil 1935.[23] Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[37]During this period, Mussolini, like all revolutionaries, considered himself a Marxist and he described Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."[38]
    In 1913, he published Giovanni Hus, il veridico (Jan Hus, true prophet), an historical and political biography about the life and mission of the Czech ecclesiastic reformer Jan Hus and his militant followers, the Hussites. During this socialist period of his life, Mussolini sometimes used the pen name "Vero Eretico" ("sincere heretic").[39]
    Mussolini rejected egalitarianism, a core doctrine of socialism.[6] He was influenced by Nietzsche's anti-Christian ideas and negation of God's existence. [40] Mussolini felt that socialism had faltered, in view of the failures of Marxist determinism and social democratic reformism, and believed that Nietzsche's ideas would strengthen socialism. While associated with socialism, Mussolini's writings eventually indicated that he had abandoned Marxism and egalitarianism in favor of Nietzsche's übermensch concept and anti-egalitarianism.[40]
    I think this topic is way more complex than this..

    Take Julios Evola he was called the fascist intellectual and a radical traditionalist and the leading philosopher of Europes neofascist movements and the man was not a socialist at all!

    Actually a very interesting figure that had big influence on many of today far right political movements in Europe.

    The Italian Fascist leader Benito Mussolini, the Nazi Grail seeker Otto Rahn, and the Romanian fascist sympathizer and religious historian Mircea Eliade admired Julius Evola.[17][58][13][8] After World War II, Evola's writings continued to influence many European far-right political, racist and neo-fascist movements. He is widely translated in French, Spanish, partly in German, and mostly in Hungarian ....


    Julius Evola - Wikipedia
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    all the fascist parties in europe began as either socialists or marxists. but somehow the lessons are lost despite the fact that people from that generation are still alive.

    a sample from benito mussolini:
    By now, he was one of Italy's most prominent socialists. In September 1911, Mussolini participated in a riot, led by socialists, against the Italian war in Libya. He bitterly denounced Italy's "imperialist war", an action that earned him a five-month jail term.[35] After his release he helped expel from the Socialist Party two "revisionists" who had supported the war, Ivanoe Bonomi and Leonida Bissolati. As a result, he was rewarded the editorship of the Socialist Party newspaper Avanti! Under his leadership, its circulation soon rose from 20,000 to 100,000.[36] John Gunther in 1940 called him "one of the best journalists alive"; he was a working reporter while preparing for the March on Rome, and wrote for the Hearst News Serviceuntil 1935.[23] Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[37]During this period, Mussolini, like all revolutionaries, considered himself a Marxist and he described Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."[38]
    In 1913, he published Giovanni Hus, il veridico (Jan Hus, true prophet), an historical and political biography about the life and mission of the Czech ecclesiastic reformer Jan Hus and his militant followers, the Hussites. During this socialist period of his life, Mussolini sometimes used the pen name "Vero Eretico" ("sincere heretic").[39]
    Mussolini rejected egalitarianism, a core doctrine of socialism.[6] He was influenced by Nietzsche's anti-Christian ideas and negation of God's existence. [40] Mussolini felt that socialism had faltered, in view of the failures of Marxist determinism and social democratic reformism, and believed that Nietzsche's ideas would strengthen socialism. While associated with socialism, Mussolini's writings eventually indicated that he had abandoned Marxism and egalitarianism in favor of Nietzsche's übermensch concept and anti-egalitarianism.[40]
    Did you reach the end of your quoted paragraph? While he was a Marxist at some point he ended up rejecting Marxism.

    Can we stop pretending like fascism started as a "leftist ideology" when in actuality, it started as the rejection of all that was socialist/communist? Especially considering it is characterized as ultra nationalism, disdain for human rights and anyone even remotely different even using them as a scarecrow for unity, promotion of religious ideals and even mingling them with government, power is taken away from the people for the sake of the elite, heck even economically speaking they were entirely opposed to socialism..

    You can say the rejection of socialism and " "leftist" politics led to the rise of the extreme right in the form of Nazism and fascism however you cannot really say these parties started as leftist!
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Did you reach the end of your quoted paragraph? While he was a Marxist at some point he ended up rejecting Marxism.

    Can we stop pretending like fascism started as a "leftist ideology" when in actuality, it started as the rejection of all that was socialist/communist? Especially considering it is characterized as ultra nationalism, disdain for human rights and anyone even remotely different even using them as a scarecrow for unity, promotion of religious ideals and even mingling them with government, power is taken away from the people for the sake of the elite, heck even economically speaking they were entirely opposed to socialism..

    You can say the rejection of socialism and " "leftist" politics led to the rise of the extreme right in the form of Nazism and fascism however you cannot really say these parties started as leftist!
    Read carefully. Fascists didn't reject socialism. They thought they could improve aspects of it.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    Read carefully. Fascists didn't reject socialism. They thought they could improve aspects of it.
    Mussolini was mad he was kicked out as editor of a Marxist newspaper for hatred against the Germans and started his fascist movement shortly after! He rejected egalitarianism the quintessential aspect of socialism for the sake of ultra nationalism. Seriously let's stop pretending fascism and socialism are the same thing against all available information and resources!
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Mussolini was mad he was kicked out as editor of a Marxist newspaper for hatred against the Germans and started his fascist movement shortly after! He rejected egalitarianism the quintessential aspect of socialism for the sake of ultra nationalism. Seriously let's stop pretending fascism and socialism are the same thing against all available information and resources!
    No one ever argued that fascism and socialism are the same thing; only that one is inspired by the other, that both attract the same kind of people, and that many fascists started as socialists.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    No one ever argued that fascism and socialism are the same thing; only that one is inspired by the other, that both attract the same kind of people, and that many fascists started as socialists.
    No, it was that fascist parties started as socialists, that Nazism was a socialist ideology despite all evidence and historical facts, and that "fascism is a branch of socialism". The posts are still there!

    One was inspired by the total and complete rejection of the other! And no they don't attract the same kind of people, they attract the exact opposite kind of people! You can think of it like old indie Vs new indie kind of people!
     
    Indie

    Indie

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    No, it was that fascist parties started as socialists, that Nazism was a socialist ideology despite all evidence and historical facts, and that "fascism is a branch of socialism". The posts are still there!

    One was inspired by the total and complete rejection of the other! And no they don't attract the same kind of people, they attract the exact opposite kind of people! You can think of it like old indie Vs new indie!
    "Fascism was inspired by communism."

    "Fascism is a branch of communism."

    They mean the same thing. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

    And no...it's not the same as old Indie vs. new Indie: new Indie has no intention of reforming or strenghtening leftism; new Indie rejects leftism.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Did you reach the end of your quoted paragraph? While he was a Marxist at some point he ended up rejecting Marxism.

    Can we stop pretending like fascism started as a "leftist ideology" when in actuality, it started as the rejection of all that was socialist/communist?
    pretending? it is a fact that the nazis were a socialist party. heck their name is the "National Socialist German Workers' Party". they were classified as far right because they were as racist as they were socialists. the same applies to mussolini, he left the social party not because he rejected marxism, but rather because he rejected the concept of equality.

    Especially considering it is characterized as ultra nationalism, disdain for human rights and anyone even remotely different even using them as a scarecrow for unity, promotion of religious ideals and even mingling them with government, power is taken away from the people for the sake of the elite, heck even economically speaking they were entirely opposed to socialism..
    you are extremely wrong. by definition the left takes the power from the individual and invests it in the state, in contrast the right diminishes the state in favor of the individual. more to it, across history, disdain for human rights almost always occurs under leftist communist/socialist rule, as the individual's value is measured only by their contribution to the group. this is why close to 40 million people were killed in concetration camps in russia, and close to 100 million were killed in china, millions in kambudia etc...
    You can say the rejection of socialism and " "leftist" politics led to the rise of the extreme right in the form of Nazism and fascism however you cannot really say these parties started as leftist!
    i could say that, but i would be wrong. because history factually disproves your wishful thinking.
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Hitler upheld private property, individual entrepreneurship, and economic competition, and disapproved of trade unions and workers’ interference in the freedom of owners and managers to run their own enterprises. Capitalism was left in place under the Nazis who used "socialism" in the name of their party and socialist ideas in their writings and speeches in order to broaden their appeal in service of the one true goal: raw totalitarian power in a racially superior state with abundant living space. Unlike in the US or much of European countries today, it is not the market which determined economic development -- it was the state, the Nazi state. This is general knowledge and the reason why I dismissed your claims as lies and misinformation, not because of your cited source.

    5 minute soundbites by propagandists are no replacement for academic scholarship.
     
    Isabella

    Isabella

    The Queen Of "Bazella"
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Fascism was inspired by communism."

    "Fascism is a branch of communism."

    They mean the same thing. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

    And no...it's not the same as old Indie vs. new Indie: new Indie has no intention of reforming or strenghtening leftism; new Indie rejects leftism.

    Neither did fascists have any interest in strengthening or reforming socialism, fascists rejected socialism!

    Anyway I'm done with this subject, feel free to keep spreading misinformation
     
    Top