Federalism: Pros and Cons

Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
And even in this hypothetical scenario, my stances are more fair than yours. You get exactly what everyone else gets, nothing less, nothing more. But as a true Hariri and Saudi follower, unless you become the sole proprietor of what belongs to everyone else, you consider yourself a weakened victim.

Right. Or your argument lacks logic. I wonder which one it is.

Option A) One Beirut-Saida canton that has a Sunni majority, and is geographically contiguous.

Option B) Four different cantons in a stretch of land that is less than 20 square miles. This rule applies only to the Beirut area, and no other cantons, because feelings and stuff.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Is splitting the capital a good idea?

As for Saida, no it shouldn't be ruled by Tyre.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Saida is a Sunni enclave in a Shia dominated region of the country. Do you suggest that this small town have its own canton? Or, in your words, would it be "dominated by Shiites"?



It wouldn't make sense to split them like that. Why increase the red tape and make things more complicated? They are the same religion, and next to each other geographically.



Your argument does not follow and you are not understanding what I mean. You just said that you want to turn Beirut into an administrative nightmare (one canton, 3 different regions and governments), for the purpose of having it be the capital for all Lebanese. Then you said that there should be a small independent capital zone similar to DC for the parliament and government buildings. Which one is it?

So what I understand from your post. You want to screw Shiites in Dahiyeh in order to have a canton for Sunni Saidao_O

Saida-Marje3iyoun is not enough screwing Christians there. You also want to screw poor Da7iyeh.

What red tapes? Let each municipality runs it's region. All are happy :)

Not a small capital but a governmental zone. Unless you want to pay for its expenditures. Again mashkourin :D
 
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Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
Is splitting the capital a good idea?

As for Saida, no it shouldn't be ruled by Tyre.

I think that the capital should be a tiny plot of land encompassing the parliament and PM office. What do you think about Beirut? Two/three different cantons/governments?
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Right. Or your argument lacks logic. I wonder which one it is.

You're delusional and incapable of using logic even when things are spelled out for you a trillion times.

Option A) One Beirut-Saida canton that has a Sunni majority, and is geographically contiguous.

Geographical continuity, while nice, isn't the main thing to consider if you want to divide fairly.

Option B) Four different cantons in a stretch of land that is less than 20 square miles. This rule applies only to the Beirut area, and no other cantons, because feelings and stuff.

Beirut metropolitan area is 40 to 80 square miles. And the size of the area doesn't matter as much as the number of people living there.

You actually want to monopolize the CAPITAL of the country, while everyone else is offering to split it fairly, and you call others sectarian?

I am starting to understand more and more what certain forumers mean when they speak of "logique à la bleu!"
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
I think that the capital should be a tiny plot of land encompassing the parliament and PM office. What do you think about Beirut? Two/three different cantons/governments?

I prefer Beirut to be its own given it's the capital. I prefer it serves as a symbol of unity than of division.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
I prefer Beirut to be its own given it's the capital. I prefer it serves as a symbol of unity than of division.

Even the zone of such canton is weird. It's the only canton that stretch from the sea to the Syrian border.
 

Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
So what I understand from your post. You want to screw Shiites in Dahiyeh in order to have an enclave for Sunni Saidao_O

Saida-Marje3iyoun is not enough screwing Christians there. You also want to screw poor Da7iyeh.

Totally ridiculous. Are the Shia in Mt. Lebanon "getting screwed"? Are the Sunnis in Bekaa "getting screwed"? The federal system, no matter how you split it, will have minorities in every canton. It's pretty obvious from looking at the map that Sunnis get the short end of the stick in a federal system, so please, enough with playing the victim.

What red tapes? Let each municipality runs it's region. All are happy :)

Lebanon is already tiny. Federalism shouldn't seek to create a dozen tiny states, but ideally only 6 or 7 which can function properly. Two Christian cantons right next to each other makes zero sense.

Not a small capital but a governmental zone. Unless you want to pay for its expenditures. Again mashkourin :D

I think the governmental zone should be the capital. Generally that is how it works in a federal state.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Can some people please remember that Lebanon will still be one country? Partition is forbidden.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Totally ridiculous. Are the Shia in Mt. Lebanon "getting screwed"? Are the Sunnis in Bekaa "getting screwed"? The federal system, no matter how you split it, will have minorities in every canton. It's pretty obvious from looking at the map that Sunnis get the short end of the stick in a federal system, so please, enough with playing the victim.



Lebanon is already tiny. Federalism shouldn't seek to create a dozen tiny states, but ideally only 6 or 7 which can function properly. Two Christian cantons right next to each other makes zero sense.



I think the governmental zone should be the capital. Generally that is how it works in a federal state.

No matter how it is redefined. Some will be screwed. Christians will be screwed in Akkar and Tripoli. Why Sunni of the South share the same fate as Christians in the North?

As RH said. Let's keep Beirut as one as a symbol of unity... divided into three municipalities. Than we'll see how can we find solution for Saida. And Sunni Saida should be no better than Christian Jezzine. Why you want to create a Sunni canton not a Christian one for Jezzine and parts of Shouf and west beqa3?
 

Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
Beirut metropolitan area is 40 to 80 square miles. And the size of the area doesn't matter as much as the number of people living there.

Beirut city is 20 square miles. Did you look at the map I posted earlier? You see places like Baabda? They are considered a part of Beirut metropolitan area, along with a bunch of other highly populated Christian areas which would be considered a part of the Christian canton. That's something you should consider, because you keep adding in areas and populations that we aren't discussing here.

You actually want to monopolize the CAPITAL of the country, while everyone else is offering to split it fairly, and you call others sectarian?

I want to create the most logical system that will be agreeable to all parties. You fail to realize that the "half the population lives in Beirut" line you keep repeating takes into account the metropolitan Christian population which would incorporated into the Christian canton, and forgetting that the reason why Beirut's population is so large in the first place is because Sunnis are heavily concentrated in cities, not the countryside. You keep mentioning the large number of Shia in southern Beirut means we need to create three cantons out of Beirut, well proportionally speaking I can make a similar argument about many other cantons, as I stated. Raw numbers mean nothing here, proportions do.

I am starting to understand more and more what certain forumers mean when they speak of "logique à la bleu!"

Great, stop pretending to be neutral, honest discussion is far superior.
 

Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
And I want to drive a point home here. EVERYONE gets a vote in the canton. This isn't a partition where minority sects will be oppressed. It is a federalism. So Shia in Beirut won't be "screwed" in my model, in fact they will probably have a larger vote than they had in the past.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Beirut city is 20 square miles. Did you look at the map I posted earlier? You see places like Baabda? They are considered a part of Beirut metropolitan area, along with a bunch of other highly populated Christian areas which would be considered a part of the Christian canton. That's something you should consider, because you keep adding in areas and populations that we aren't discussing here.



I want to create the most logical system that will be agreeable to all parties. You fail to realize that the "half the population lives in Beirut" line you keep repeating takes into account the metropolitan Christian population which would incorporated into the Christian canton, and forgetting that the reason why Beirut's population is so large in the first place is because Sunnis are heavily concentrated in cities, not the countryside. You keep mentioning the large number of Shia in southern Beirut means we need to create three cantons out of Beirut, well proportionally speaking I can make a similar argument about many other cantons, as I stated. Raw numbers mean nothing here, proportions do.



Great, stop pretending to be neutral, honest discussion is far superior.

What do Christian areas have to do with Dahyeh? Where did I argue that Christians should get more of Beirut than what they actually occupy currently? Same with Sunni areas of Beirut. Where did I suggest that west Beirut should be given to anyone else?

But what about the Shias in all this? Why shouldn't they get their part of Beirut like everyone else?

As for downtown Beirut, it used to be for everyone and it should remain so. Just because Hariri took over the area illegally, doesn't mean it now belongs to Sunnis. There are no Lebanese living there, Sunni or otherwise, except for a few crooks.
 

Indie

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Great, stop pretending to be neutral, honest discussion is far superior.

I never pretended to be neutral. I said I'm independent. And being independent and non-sectarian doesn't mean you won't fight back when others are being sectarian against you or others.
 

Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
No matter how it is redefined. Some will be screwed. Christians will be screwed in Akkar and Tripoli.Why Sunni of the South share the same fate as Christians in the North?

As I stated earlier, yes, some will be screwed no matter how you slice the pie.

And Sunni Saida should be no better than Christian Jezzine. Why you want to create a Sunni canton not a Christian one for Jezzine and parts of Shouf and west beqa3?

I wonder why you don't ask: how come the Sunni in eastern and northern Bekaa doesn't get his own canton? You have a one track mind and fail to realize that plenty of Sunnis get screwed in this model as well.

The reason why Saida and western Beirut are an important piece of the puzzle is because half the Sunni population of the country lives in this small stretch of land. So if you are looking for a consensual model that can be peacefully implemented with 75%+ popular support...you can't break this stretch of land and along with it 700,000 people's support for your model.
 

WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
I apologize for being out of the loop. It's the weekend after all. I'll just jump in where you guys left of.

And I want to drive a point home here. EVERYONE gets a vote in the canton. This isn't a partition where minority sects will be oppressed. It is a federalism. So Shia in Beirut won't be "screwed" in my model, in fact they will probably have a larger vote than they had in the past.

Exactly @Bandar, I think people are confusing federalism with confederalism. We're not suggesting creating a union of states that each have their own different set of rules and constitutions. There will be one constitution that safeguards the rights of all the people regardless of which state they fall under.

The point of dividing the country into states is to give each area's governor more power to tend to the needs of each separate state. The central government in Beirut will lose a little bit power as a consequence, but the Lebanese state as a whole should grow stronger economically and politically as a result.

As a side note, Beirut should be its own state since it's the capital. But it's vote should be equal to that of all the other states. The biggest problem historically has been the disproportionate amount of infrastructure investment into Beirut. Placing more money into the hands of local governors (in theory) could lead to more jobs being created outside of the capital creating a win-win scenario. Beirut will be less crowded, and areas outside of the capital will attract more investment.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
As I stated earlier, yes, some will be screwed no matter how you slice the pie.

And your proposal will screw the capital of Lebanon.

You took a city that is supposed to be for all Lebanese and minimize it into sectarian canton. A Beiruti have so much common with mashghara than his neighbor in Dahiyeh or Ashrafiyeh.

Beirut should be neutral. It is for all Lebanese
 
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Bandar

Well-Known Member
Orange Room Supporter
ok KHALAS let's leave beirut and saida for a bit and discuss other regions and maps. BRB after my tea.
 

WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
ok KHALAS let's leave beirut and saida for a bit and discuss other regions and maps. BRB after my tea.

True. How about we discuss HA's ability to honor such an arrangement?

As it stands right now, they're the ones with foreign ties that extend beyond the Lebanese state and are fighting a war outside the Lebanese borders on their own accord. In other words, if the Shiite majority gets Baalbak for example, how likely is that not to turn into Tehran 2.0?
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
If the Christians take East Beirut, the Sunnis should take West Beirut, deal? The Dahye could probably go with West Beirut, I don't see how would you make it an exclave of the other Shia cantons, that could result in an administrative nightmare.
 
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