Federalism: Pros and Cons

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
True. How about we discuss HA's ability to honor such an arrangement?

As it stands right now, they're the ones with foreign ties that extend beyond the Lebanese state and are fighting a war outside the Lebanese borders on their own accord. In other words, if the Shiite majority gets Baalbak for example, how likely is that not to turn into Tehran 2.0?

HA is there because the government neglected the South.
Give the Shias an alternative and HA would probably disappear (HA can't exist without the support of their base).
 

Lebanese-Nationalist

Well-Known Member
If the Christians take East Beirut, the Sunnis should take West Beirut, deal? The Dahye could probably go with West Beirut, I don't see how would you make it an exclave of the other Shia cantons, that could result in an administrative nightmare.

Federalism in Lebanon should be based on geography. I hate it when the federalism discussion devolves into sects taking their "fair share". In any case, the geographical split will enable sects to have a majority in most provinces. Mount Lebanon would be Christian, the south would be Shi'ite, etc.. What if the federal division of provinces is based on the electoral areas of the 1960 law?

If anything, Beirut should be its own federal state on one level and the capital on the other level. The upside is that Beirut can be the only province where no sect has a monopoly.
 

Lebanese-Nationalist

Well-Known Member
HA is there because the government neglected the South.
Give the Shias an alternative and HA would probably disappear (HA can't exist without the support of their base).

You're naive to think that Hezbollah would relinquish any power. Who says it's in Hezbollah's interest for the state to grow more powerful and stable. The state ideally represents all Lebanese and treats them equally. This is not in line with Hezbollah's ideology. I agree that many Shi'ites will have no need for Hezbollah if the state is allowed to prosper; however, Hezbollah will never allow that because they will lose their monopoly.

Everything starts off for a reason but once great power is attained then why would anyone give that up?
 

JB81

Legendary Member
True. How about we discuss HA's ability to honor such an arrangement?

As it stands right now, they're the ones with foreign ties that extend beyond the Lebanese state and are fighting a war outside the Lebanese borders on their own accord. In other words, if the Shiite majority gets Baalbak for example, how likely is that not to turn into Tehran 2.0?

Can you remind me where is Saad now? Isn't he in his beloved country? I'm not talking about Lebanon...

If we're going to discuss things let it be straight forward .

You can't say that HA is the only party that have foreign ties. It is not good for your image and your wiseness. Enno 7atta el7akim elwatani told the Saudi embassy he is willing to do whatever the mamlaka demands for few $.

HA went to Syria so he can meet Saad in Damascus airport :D

On the other side, since you opened the subject... we would like to know about the Federal state you propose. More details to know the pros and cons.

For instance, if Federalism means tripoli turning into Riyadh 2.0... umm :(
 
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Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You're naive to think that Hezbollah would relinquish any power. Who says it's in Hezbollah's interest for the state to grow more powerful and stable. The state ideally represents all Lebanese and treats them equally. This is not in line with Hezbollah's ideology. I agree that many Shi'ites will have no need for Hezbollah if the state is allowed to prosper; however, Hezbollah will never allow that because they will lose their monopoly.

Everything starts off for a reason but once great power is attained then why would anyone give that up?

Without popular support, I wonder if they will still be able to survive with everybody against them and near the mighty IDF.
 

Lebanese-Nationalist

Well-Known Member
Without popular support, I wonder if they will still be able to survive with everybody against them and near the mighty IDF.

Popular support will move away once the state steps up to the plate. Hezbollah will never allow the state to do that since they know they will lose popular support.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Popular support will move away once the state steps up to the plate. Hezbollah will never allow the state to do that since they know they will lose popular support.

There is more state presence in the south and beqa3 than most Sunni regions.

Is the army allowed to go to Akkar? Or the army have to take permission from Khaled Daher before?

W 3ersal... 7adess wala 7araj...the army is being butchered by Hariris there on daily basis and the army is not allowed to restore the area under state control under 7ejjet Sunna wawa mazloumin majrou7in

When you want to talk about the state. You should first respect the state. Your party did not respect the constitution and went for extending for the Parliament.

Walk the walk before preaching others
 
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Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Popular support will move away once the state steps up to the plate. Hezbollah will never allow the state to do that since they know they will lose popular support.

We need a strong army that can defend us. Iran offered weapons but M14 refused. The US doesn't want the LAF to be able to face the mighty IDF.
 

WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
HA is there because the government neglected the South.
Give the Shias an alternative and HA would probably disappear (HA can't exist without the support of their base).

That's very true, however how can we be sure that HA will simply allow the state to take over? I mean we have to remember that this a country where the "Jame3it el moterat" protested when the government planned to provide some areas with 24 hour electricity.

Can you remind me where is Saad now? Isn't he in his beloved country? I'm not talking about Lebanon...

If we're going to discuss things let it be straight forward .

You can't say that HA is the only party that have foreign ties. It is not good for your image and your wiseness. Enno 7atta el7akim elwatani told the Saudi embassy he is willing to do whatever the mamlaka demands for few $.

HA went to Syria so he can meet Saad in Damascus airport :D

On the other side, since you opened the subject... we would like to know about the Federal state you propose. More details to know the pros and cons.

For instance, if Federalism means tripoli turning into Riyadh 2.0... umm :(

You really have a stick up your butt don't you?

The LF doesn't need to pull out its credentials. It defended Lebanon when no one else would, so let's not go down that road. I also don't want to go on a tangent here and derail the thread, especially with some one that distrusts Geagea so much. It would be a fruitless endeavor. You can also fall into misguided conspiracy theories about the FM, but at the end of the day they're a greater force of moderation than HA is, especially when they have never raised weapons against the state. Now if you want to talk about the FM funding terrorist groups please leave it for another thread. This thread is about loyalty to the Lebanese state, and a discussion about how to make it a viable strong entity.

Instead, let's focus on those who have proven time and time again to be completely loyal to the concept of Wilayat el Faqih and have fought and continue to fight wars outside the sphere of the Lebanese government's influence and borders. A point that you cannot disprove.

And to answer your last point, I do not have a complete picture about what a Lebanese federal state should look like. That is why I opened this thread. To discuss it, civilly, a concept that you do not seem nor are willing to understand by your juvenile arguments and demeanor.
 

WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
We need a strong army that can defend us. Iran offered weapons but M14 refused. The US doesn't want the LAF to be able to face the mighty IDF.

It's not that simple. The LAF's most advanced weaponry is based on the NATO standard. Iran's is based on it own as well as the Warsaw Pact's. Compatibility is a huge issue.

I don't know if that's their reasoning, but as some one on the outside it seems to be a reasonable assumption.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
That's very true, however how can we be sure that HA will simply allow the state to take over? I mean we have to remember that this a country where the "Jame3it el moterat" protested when the government planned to provide some areas with 24 hour electricity.



You really have a stick up your butt don't you?

The LF doesn't need to pull out its credentials. It defended Lebanon when no one else would, so let's not go down that road. I also don't want to go on a tangent here and derail the thread, especially with some one that distrusts Geagea so much. It would be a fruitless endeavor. You can also fall into misguided conspiracy theories about the FM, but at the end of the day they're a greater force of moderation than HA is, especially when they have never raised weapons against the state. Now if you want to talk about the FM funding terrorist groups please leave it for another thread. This thread is about loyalty to the Lebanese state, and a discussion about how to make it a viable strong entity.

Instead, let's focus on those who have proven time and time again to be completely loyal to the concept of Wilayat el Faqih and have fought and continue to fight wars outside the sphere of the Lebanese government's influence and borders. A point that you cannot disprove.

And to answer your last point, I do not have a complete picture about what a Lebanese federal state should look like. That is why I opened this thread. To discuss it, civilly, a concept that you do not seem nor are willing to understand by your juvenile arguments and demeanor.

Which Lebanese Forces you're talking about because the party went thru different stages.

If you're talking about LF Bashir and before... 3a rasna though I have reservations.

But LF under moughtasab sulta Gaga have became as he famously said: Al amrou li.

Anyone who objected his rule have witnessed the same destiny. His Al Amrou li started by eliminating his LF comrades and finished into war with the Lebanese army.

This is the LF you're talking about. It is gaga and only Gaga and what benefit gaga.

Now that he can't eliminate others by force... the only Gaga and what benefit gaga turned himself into prostitute for Al Saud to face Aoun.

So please when you want to talk about lf, you have say which LF you're talking about. Most LFERS who fought with Bashir are against Gaga! Do you know why? Are they also Syrian puppets?

So yeah! LF under Gaga became prostitute for the highest bidder, unfortunately. Bashir must be burning in his grave to see how Gaga turned his party into prostitution.
 
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WiseCookie

Well-Known Member
Which Lebanese Forces you're talking about because the party went thru different stages.

If you're talking about LF Bashir and before... 3a rasna though I have reservations.

But LF under moughtasab sulta Gaga have became as he famously said: Al amrou li.

Anyone who objected his rule have witnessed the same destiny. His Al Amrou li started by eliminating his LF comrades and finished into war with the Lebanese army.

This is the LF you're talking about. It is gaga and only Gaga and what benefit gaga.

Now that he can't eliminate others by force... the only Gaga and what benefit gaga turned himself into prostitute for Al Saud to face Aoun.

So please when you want to talk about lf, you have say which LF you're talking about. Most LFERS who fought with Bashir are against Gaga! Do you know why? Are they also Syrian puppets?

So yeah! LF under Gaga became prostitute for the highest bidder, unfortunately. Bashir must be burning in his grave to see how Gaga turned his party into prostitution.

Please don't try to divert the topic of this thread. This is about federalism and not your pseudo-history of Geagea. This video is my rebuttal to what you said and that's it.


Also, I hope your attempt to divert the topic of this thread isn't because of the unquestionable disloyalty to the Lebanese state and abhorrence to a strong government.
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Please don't try to divert the topic of this thread. This is about federalism and not your pseudo-history of Geagea. This video is my rebuttal to what you said and that's it.


Also, I hope your attempt to divert the topic of this thread isn't because of the unquestionable disloyalty to the Lebanese state and abhorrence to a strong government.

Really? You adopted this Gaga propoganda from 1990 while you were FPM during 1989-2006? Did you believe what this propaganda said and still Aounist during the period till 2006?

Where you confused back than or now?
 
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JB81

Legendary Member
I'm not the one who is trying to divert subject into other places. It is those who started to talk about HA being a foreign element bla bla bla

If you want to talk about HA foreign interference than you should not nag when others answer back.

Ok WiseCookie?
 

JB81

Legendary Member
Federalism in Lebanon should be based on geography. I hate it when the federalism discussion devolves into sects taking their "fair share". In any case, the geographical split will enable sects to have a majority in most provinces. Mount Lebanon would be Christian, the south would be Shi'ite, etc.. What if the federal division of provinces is based on the electoral areas of the 1960 law?

If anything, Beirut should be its own federal state on one level and the capital on the other level. The upside is that Beirut can be the only province where no sect has a monopoly.

Good proposal! While Christians in North South may accept such federalism despite their marginalization, it also means that Druze will be marginalized by Christian majority in Mount Lebanon. This is an issue.

I think having cazas small districts as local governments are better representation for Lebanese. Or some sort of combination of powers between Mou7afaza and kada2.

This way, the governor of Mount Lebanon may have some powers, so does shouf "druze" Kaem makam. Same for the North for instance, the governor may be Sunni, but he may not have total control over Christian kada2 Bshareh Zgharta koura and Batroun.

Same for the south for example. You may have a Shiite governor, but Jezzine and Saida will have some self governance.
 
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JB81

Legendary Member
So Federalism according to Mou7afaza/qada2. The Mou7afaza will have its governor with (debated powers)...and kada2 will have its ka2em makam with (debated powers).

Both positions governor/mou7afez or ka2em makam should be elected by the people accordingly .

What do you guys think of this combination? It is basically de-centralization without being too sectarian.

The mou7afazat and cazas exist already. It just needs regulations.
 
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Walidos

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Here is my proposal for a federal state:
- Sunnis go to Saudi Arabia
- Shias go to Iran
- Christians go to the USA
- politicians from all sects go to hell

We then plant trees and call it the country formerly known as Lebanon. in a million years, our descendants who survive the nuclear war and global warming, can come back and claim the land, now rich in petrol... All descendents if current politicians and assholes (you know who you are) are no longer eligible to come back
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
So Federalism according to Mou7afaza/qada2. The Mou7afaza will have its governor with (debated powers)...and kada2 will have its ka2em makam with (debated powers).

Both positions governor/mou7afez or ka2em makam should be elected by the people accordingly .

What do you guys think of this combination? It is basically de-centralization without being too sectarian.

The mou7afazat and cazas exist already. It just needs regulations.

That could work, especially since geography is very important.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
To guide our discussion about federalism/decentralization, we should ask ourselves: which powers should go to local governments?
 
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