Fighting Corruption: Law to Reclaim Stolen Funds

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  • Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Sectarian minds are not evolved enough for such endeavors. Even worse, they are the fuel for corruption to strive.
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

    Legendary Member
    Sectarian minds are not evolved enough for such endeavors. Even worse, they are the fuel for corruption to strive.
    The FPM and FPMers have been whining all along that Hezballah isn't leaving up to expectation in fighting corruption.

    This is a great opportunity to fight corruption. Any a$$hole who has embezzled public funds should have his assets confiscated by govt. This law should be passed. And this is the test for the FPM to pass. They should support such a law if they are truly serious about fighting corruption. Or failure to pass this law will mean the slogans about fighting corruption are just political gimmicks and nothing more.
     
    Nasser

    Nasser

    Well-Known Member
    Staff member
    I'm all for it. Not only do I want the state to return stolen funds, also convicted thieves who were found to be harboring corruption or misconduct of their positions should be punished and jailed aswell.

    I hope Nasrallah is honest about this. He then should return all the custom fees his party didn't pay for the products they import to Lebanon, that should account for hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The FPM and FPMers have been whining all along that Hezballah isn't leaving up to expectation in fighting corruption.

    This is a great opportunity to fight corruption. Any a$$hole who has embezzled public funds should have his assets confiscated by govt. This law should be passed. And this is the test for the FPM to pass. They should support such a law if they are truly serious about fighting corruption. Or failure to pass this law will mean the slogans about fighting corruption are just political gimmicks and nothing more.
    Such laws already exist and I'm not sure what a new law can bring, that we don't already have.
    Our problem is not with the EXISTENCE of laws, but with the APPLICATION of laws. And with a corrupt police and security system as well as a corrupt and/or incapacitated judiciary system, not to mention a corrupt general culture and mentality, all this well cemented by deep rooted sectarianism, I can't see this country going anywhere.

    If we want to fight corruption, we need to start with an anti-mafia law, similar to those implemented in Italy, but we need to add to it the power to criminalize sectarianism and fight it with all possible tools and ways. (Which implies amending the constitution btw)
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

    Legendary Member
    The question is, what if this fight leads to a an issue with Amal and Berri? What will take precedence, fighting corruption or HA/Amal unity?
    It will not lead to any fight. Amal MPs and the speaker have immunity from prosecution. The system and our laws already protect the big heads. So even if they are corrupt as FPMers are alleging, no one can do anything about Berri or his MPs. The law on reclaiming stolen funds will target mainly ministers and lower public servants. Maybe another law or amendment should be made to lift the immunity of MPs. We cannot have criminals ruling us. Outlaws who feel they are demigods and beyond prosecution for their ills.

    Our parliamentary system is dictatorship of political parties and sectarian warlords. And similarly, we need a law banning MPs becoming ministers and even, tenure limitation.

    How can we have a Jumblatt, Hariri, Berri, Aoun, Gmayyel or Bassil be in parliament for 10, 15, 20 or 30 years? We, as Lebanese people, are all screwed by our so called leaders who are using the system to milk the country to their own advantage and at the expense of the general populace.

    An MP should have two tenures (whether four, five or six years each). Serving for 8, 10 or 12 years is enough to achieve whatever. Time should not be in their favor. When they feel time is not limited for them to be in power, they relax and do as they like.

    Both the speaker post and the PM post should also have tenure limits like the presidency does. But if anyone says a thing, it will be misunderstood in the sectarian context. If I, as a Shia, propose such a law for the PM, it will be seen as an intrusion on a Sunni reserved post. As if these posts aren't national seats and they are only for one sect. We are a lawless people. We dont like to abide by laws or be checked by authorities. We always like to be exempted. And if a Christian says the same about the speaker, it will be seen as an intrusion. We are divided and mutilated into sects that we cannot even raise our voices on national issues. And those parties that should collectively make such decisions will not because the sectarian and parliamentary dictatorship status quo favors them. They want to remain in power for decades and continue toying with the future of the country. When they agree, they suck the people's blood. When they disagree, they shed the people's blood. This is the sectarian mafia system we have in place in Lebanon. And we cannot complain because we continue, as a people, to be scared of ourselves on sectarian basis while our mafia leaders use that fear to milk us and steal. They are all thieves. They aren't fighting to be where they want to be because they love me, as a Lebanese or even on the sectarian level, or because they love you as a Lebanese or Christian. Everyone needs to wake up. When there was compulsory military services, to send their kids to serve the nation was a heavy duty. The service ended up scrapped.

    It is the dream of all those ruling us to remain in power for decades and then their children after them. Some cannot while others, with the slightest opportunity are doing it. Lebanon needs constant change of leadership at the government levels. If anyone wants to remain relevant in power, it should be at the political party level and not at the government, state or public levels. They can turn their political parties into their bedrooms and file in new faces and names into parliament and government and in public positions. We are tired of seeing the same old ugly faces of the thieves ruling us.

    Saad Hariri will likely continue to be prime minister of Lebanon for the next two to three or four decades. Berri is already speaker for three decades. The Aoun family won't mind having a grip on the presidency for another ten decades. Its all a sham. They are all a sham. And we as a people are stupid if we dont wake up!
     
    Rachel Corrie

    Rachel Corrie

    Legendary Member
    I'm all for it. Not only do I want the state to return stolen funds, also convicted thieves who were found to be harboring corruption or misconduct of their positions should be punished and jailed aswell.

    I hope Nasrallah is honest about this. He then should return all the custom fees his party didn't pay for the products they import to Lebanon, that should account for hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more.
    It is a shame that a moderator is cracking jokes on serious matter and derailing the thread by raising up distractions. I believe weapons meant to protect the country (for instance, for the army) aren't taxed. Take your jokes elsewhere. And that doesn't amount to corruption because no one's money is looted. These weapons aren't for business purposes to be taxed. They are for self defense. And you don't need to sound like a sour b**** and loser trying to destroy the country with such antics when others are looking for ways to stop cash theft.
     
    Nasser

    Nasser

    Well-Known Member
    Staff member
    It is a shame that a moderator is cracking jokes on serious matter and derailing the thread by raising up distractions. I believe weapons meant to protect the country (for instance, for the army) aren't taxed. Take your jokes elsewhere. And that doesn't amount to corruption because no one's money is looted. These weapons aren't for business purposes to be taxed. They are for self defense. And you don't need to sound like a sour b**** and loser trying to destroy the country with such antics when others are looking for ways to stop cash theft.
    That wasn't a joke. And that wasn't about weapons either.
    HA indeed does not pay custom fees on alot of goods and products they import whether through sea port or airport, real products and not weapons.
    You're ignorant about this subject apparently, so I forgive your bad words.
     
    walidos

    walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Such laws already exist and I'm not sure what a new law can bring, that we don't already have.
    Our problem is not with the EXISTENCE of laws, but with the APPLICATION of laws. And with a corrupt police and security system as well as a corrupt and/or incapacitated judiciary system, not to mention a corrupt general culture and mentality, all this well cemented by deep rooted sectarianism, I can't see this country going anywhere.

    If we want to fight corruption, we need to start with an anti-mafia law, similar to those implemented in Italy, but we need to add to it the power to criminalize sectarianism and fight it with all possible tools and ways. (Which implies amending the constitution btw)
    I agree, and I am asking, if a police force wants to arrest an Amal guy or close to Berri, will HA stand by the police or by Berri for unity considerations? That’s the question... enforcing the law is great when you don’t worry about the police being beaten up and then reprimanded for doing their job
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Such laws already exist and I'm not sure what a new law can bring, that we don't already have.
    Our problem is not with the EXISTENCE of laws, but with the APPLICATION of laws. And with a corrupt police and security system as well as a corrupt and/or incapacitated judiciary system, not to mention a corrupt general culture and mentality, all this well cemented by deep rooted sectarianism, I can't see this country going anywhere.

    If we want to fight corruption, we need to start with an anti-mafia law, similar to those implemented in Italy, but we need to add to it the power to criminalize sectarianism and fight it with all possible tools and ways. (Which implies amending the constitution btw)
    it is very easy not just to solve the corruption but also to resurrect the country from the economic abyss it is spiraling into. the state needs 1/3 the number of the employees who are on the payrolls, the remaining two thirds should be gradually let go without a ta3weed, and instead of receiving salaries they should be given food stamps for a transitional period. in addition to reducing the packages offered to the military forces that will not only eliminate the budget deficit but will also reduce the budget to half.

    in order to do that, they should amend some laws to allow for public employees to be easily let go if their performance is not adequate. ye3ne in other words you need to hold them to the same standards of the public sector. no need for taftish markaze, any manager should be able to severe the employment of his subordinates.

    there is also about 350 million dollars spent yearly on the tuition of the children of many public employees in private schools. that should stop and the amount should be invested just once in restructuring the public education sector and it will make for a better standard than the one offered in most private schools.

    PS: i meant the plan is very easy. the execution however may result in a blood bath.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I agree, and I am asking, if a police force wants to arrest an Amal guy or close to Berri, will HA stand by the police or by Berri for unity considerations? That’s the question... enforcing the law is great when you don’t worry about the police being beaten up and then reprimanded for doing their job
    There is no need nor use in politicizing such issue by building up scenarios against this or that side. This is the best way used by politicians to derail anything.
    Everyone needs to get out of this bubble of inertia.
    Look at it from this angle: Within the right framework, not only no one would protest an intervention, but better yet, no one could even stop it.
     
    walidos

    walidos

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I agree, and I am asking, if a police force wants to arrest an Amal guy or close to Berri, will HA stand by the police or by Berri for unity considerations? That’s the question... enforcing the law is great when you don’t worry about the police being beaten up and then reprimanded for doing their job
    im
    There is no need nor use in politicizing such issue by building up scenarios against this or that side. This is the best way used by politicians to derail anything.
    Everyone needs to get out of this bubble of inertia.
    Look at it from this angle: Within the right framework, not only no one would protest an intervention, but better yet, no one could even stop it.
    sorry but the track record here speaks volumes, someone will invent a story about how the criminal is innocent and how no one should touch them... anyhow the idea and plan is good, I’m just skeptic
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    it is very easy not just to solve the corruption but also to resurrect the country from the economic abyss it is spiraling into. the state needs 1/3 the number of the employees who are on the payrolls, the remaining two thirds should be gradually let go without a ta3weed, and instead of receiving salaries they should be given food stamps for a transitional period. in addition to reducing the packages offered to the military forces that will not only eliminate the budget deficit but will also reduce the budget to half.

    in order to do that, they should amend some laws to allow for public employees to be easily let go if their performance is not adequate. ye3ne in other words you need to hold them to the same standards of the public sector. no need for taftish markaze, any manager should be able to severe the employment of his subordinates.

    there is also about 350 million dollars spent yearly on the tuition of the children of many public employees in private schools. that should stop and the amount should be invested just once in restructuring the public education sector and it will make for a better standard than the one offered in most private schools.

    PS: i meant the plan is very easy. the execution however may result in a blood bath.
    Exactly. Solutions are easy and all around. But when there is no will, there is no way. At the end of the day, we cannot expect that the mafia ruling the country, starts dismantling the structure that maintains it in power and provides it with wealth. Normally at this level, people get to the street and a new dynamic is born and allows for change. But then again, people in this country, and I mean the most educated ones, not even the dumb ones, are so sectarian that any attempt to unite them around a common project is futile. We have reached a point where anything and everything the Lebanese do, has a sectarian motive. It's a mental disease that will always cripple them and keep them in a state of poverty and slavery. And they can't blame anyone but themselves.

    Many years ago, I suggested on this forum to bring in a law that criminalizes sectarianism, just like racism and other forms of discrimination forms. You wouldn't believe the replies I got, and that's from so-called educated people. Completely insane. I also was a loud critic of that saying of GMA about abolishing sectarianism "Fi L Noufous Qabl Al Noussous". Again, wrong on all counts. Sectarianism should be fought by force of law and by any possible mean, be it with "Sha77ata 3ala El Rou2ouss".

    And any fight against corruption, needs to be coupled with a fight against sectarianism, because in the specific case of Lebanon, they are both different sides of the same coin.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    im

    sorry but the track record here speaks volumes, someone will invent a story about how the criminal is innocent and how no one should touch them... anyhow the idea and plan is good, I’m just skeptic
    If you have the proper law with the proper judge with the proper elite task force directly attached to his command and the proper fund and equipment and legal tools, then the first one who pops his head will join the others. It's not complicated.

    And you're right to be skeptical, just like I am, for any law that does not deal with the issue in the way I am describing it. So to me and for the time being, any claim about fighting corruption is just poetry and populism and any slight action is just smokes and mirrors.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Exactly. Solutions are easy and all around. But when there is no will, there is no way. At the end of the day, we cannot expect that the mafia ruling the country, starts dismantling the structure that maintains it in power and provides it with wealth. Normally at this level, people get to the street and a new dynamic is born and allows for change. But then again, people in this country, and I mean the most educated ones, not even the dumb ones, are so sectarian that any attempt to unite them around a common project is futile. We have reached a point where anything and everything the Lebanese do, has a sectarian motive. It's a mental disease that will always cripple them and keep them in a state of poverty and slavery. And they can't blame anyone but themselves.

    Many years ago, I suggested on this forum to bring in a law that criminalizes sectarianism, just like racism and other forms of discrimination forms. You wouldn't believe the replies I got, and that's from so-called educated people. Completely insane. I also was a loud critic of that saying of GMA about abolishing sectarianism "Fi L Noufous Qabl Al Noussous". Again, wrong on all counts. Sectarianism should be fought by force of law and by any possible mean, be it with "Sha77ata 3ala El Rou2ouss".

    And any fight against corruption, needs to be coupled with a fight against sectarianism, because in the specific case of Lebanon, they are both different sides of the same coin.
    trouble is that none of the people who are involved in bankrupting the country are actually what one might call believers, let alone pious ones. one of the most upsetting and demoralizing scenes that i have witnessed within FPM is the transition to adopting a Christian speech at a time when other options were not only available but also awaited. and not only that, but there was a sort of a complete withdrawal from certain very vital issues under the pretext that they do not carry much of a Christian concern. and they no longer bothered expanding their support base in non-Christian areas. from then on, the political speech no longer addressed the parties, and not even the Lebanese, but rather openly addressed sunnis, shiias and Christians, and if you examine things closely today, FPM is calling for a duality inside each major sect, as if it is not only impossible to overcome the dividing lines between the sects in order to rally people around a national political agenda, but also it is impermissible to do so.

    all the political parties in Lebanon, are undisputed champions of identity politics, with the tournament trophy going to FPM, because while others still shy away from addressing the Lebanese in their sectarian identity, FPM does not shy away form using direct terms. it goes without saying that from this frame set they cannot seek to bring any public figure to face justice for anything. the best they can do is publish books, and leave it for thunder to strike down the corrupt folks.

    don't get me wrong, it is not that there was a need to restore the balance of power after the ta2ef disaccord, but if this is how things are going to be going forward, then why not push for full fledged federalism instead of prolonging the agony of all Lebanese? it is already established aslan and the ta2ef accord was indirectly pushing in that direction through the decentralization process.

    one of the key psychological factors in Lebanon that need to be understood is that people work only when others get slightly ahead of them, either to catch up or to pull them back, inno hey waynak raye7? mesh fawda el ossa, mamnou3 tkoun a7san men 7ada. in this case maybe the federal states could put an end to the plague of "6 w 6 mkarrar" and could compete positively to achieve prosperity. inno 128 parliament member all of them dodd el fassed w not a single one of them named anything by name, except the bawekhir issue, cause jebran ma 3indo militia.
     
    Last edited:
    J

    joseph_lubnan

    Legendary Member
    How do you fight corruption in a country under occupation?
     
    J

    joseph_lubnan

    Legendary Member
    trouble is that none of the people who are involved in bankrupting the country are actually what one might call believers, let alone pious ones. one of the most upsetting and demoralizing scenes that i have witnessed within FPM is the transition to adopting a Christian speech at a time when other options were not only available but also awaited. and not only that, but there was a sort of a complete withdrawal from certain very vital issues under the pretext that they do not carry much of a Christian concern. and they no longer bothered expanding their support base in non-Christian areas. from then on, the political speech no longer addressed the parties, and not even the Lebanese, but rather openly addressed sunnis, shiias and Christians, and if you examine things closely today, FPM is calling for a duality inside each major sect, as if it is not only impossible to overcome the dividing lines between the sects in order to rally people around a national political agenda, but also it is impermissible to do so.

    all the political parties in Lebanon, are undisputed champions of identity politics, with the tournament trophy going to FPM, because while others still shy away from addressing the Lebanese in their sectarian identity, FPM does not shy away form using direct terms. it goes without saying that from this frame set they cannot seek to bring any public figure to face justice for anything. the best they can do is publish books, and leave it for thunder to strike down the corrupt folks.

    don't get me wrong, it is not that there was a need to restore the balance of power after the ta2ef disaccord, but if this is how things are going to be going forward, then why not push for full fledged federalism instead of prolonging the agony of all Lebanese? it is already established aslan and the ta2ef accord was indirectly pushing in that direction through the decentralization process.

    one of the key psychological factors in Lebanon that need to be understood is that people work only when others get slightly ahead of them, either to catch up or to pull them back, inno hey waynak raye7? mesh fawda el ossa, mamnou3 tkoun a7san men 7ada. in this case maybe the federal states could put an end to the plague of "6 w 6 mkarrar" and could compete positively to achieve prosperity. inno 128 parliament member all of them dodd el fassed w not a single one of them named anything by name, except the bawekhir issue, cause jebran ma 3indo militia.
    Seems that FPM became now all of a sudden pro-khasskhasssa :)

    I think I should start calling FPM, the Orange Dhimmi Party, they follow power, money and whatever Hezbollah tells them :)
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    Seems that FPM became now all of a sudden pro-khasskhasssa :)

    I think I should start calling FPM, the Orange Dhimmi Party, they follow power, money and whatever Hezbollah tells them :)
    in this region of the world we usually go with the lesser evils, and in reality that is what FPM is, and until it pulls itself out of this downward spiral or a until an alternative materializes, it will remain as such. and believe it or not, the worst evil is the so called civil societies, if the other parties were colera, these civil movements are cancer, ebola and full blown AIDS.
     
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