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France's Le Pen is visiting Lebanon on 19 February

hola!

Member
Here is another example that went unnoticed...
Bill Clinton did the same before him during a visit to the Vatican...

Page not found | Weasel Zippersbiden-wouldnt-kiss-popes-ring-beneath-his-dignity/
Later, when he was to meet Pope John Paul II, Biden says his mother told him not to kiss the pope’s ring.
Biden, a Roman Catholic [more like CINO -ed.] descended from struggling Irish immigrants, says his dad said it was “all about dignity.”
 

My Moria Moon

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
No Hizballah visit? Wonder if Nasrallah would meet her uncovered if she asked for such a meeting.
Anyhow, for Lebanese in France I hope this visit would have some positive outcome if she becomes president. As for Lebanon the country, France ceased to be relevant since many decades. Her presidency will not bet2addim wala betakhir in much, just good if she remains friendly.
 

kmarthe

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
You are disappointing me. Are you now supporting colonialism? And do you have an idea about the French colonization of Algeria? Or colonization by Christians is OK?

And I guess Native Americans too should be grateful for European colonization?

I don't support colonization, never did, BUT:

a) When Arabs keep blaming colonization MANY decades after they ended it while failing to build prosperous countries and to create better situation than colonization, then I tend not to take their blame for colonization seriously. Can you name one single improvement that Arabs achieved after the end of colonization?

b) When someone like Macron goes into political prostitution mode to get the immigrants votes then changing his stances to please others, that also I don't respect and I don't think he should be at the head of a state because he is no better than the opponents he accuses of being hypocrites.
 
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Dark Angel

Legendary Member
So I guess you would welcome colonization by a more advanced alien civilization even if they exploit humans.

you were colonized in Lebanon.

you experienced 500 years of the ottoman empire.
you experienced couple of decades of french colonization.
and then, you experienced your independence.

can you point out in which period you were most respected as a human being and which of these periods had the most promise for your future?

when you do that i will answer your question.
 

nonsense

Legendary Member
It all goes down to Idealism vs. Realism. Sometimes, practicing realism may protect Idealism from potential threats. Idealism can be exploit it in order to gain power than turn against it when enough power is in hand.

This is how some French feels about the growing Muslim population. They think their secular humanistic ideals are under threat. Are their fears founded or not; and how much it is exaggerating; if yes, what's the proper way to deal with it. This should be the focus of the discussion. Idealism and practical realism, pragmatism can work together to protect one another.
I agree there is a balance that should be struck when talking about idealism and being pragmatic, speaking broadly.

But its obvious the muslim population growth fears etc. are vastly inflated. Its the same story it was with various immigrant populations. The world is a complex place, and some people prefer to keep us fighting over identity issues and tiny-impact topics, rather than take the fight to where it really is, such as political representation, equality and an economy that serves the people. We as humans are not programed to tackle complex things, so politicians and financial elites play us for the monkeys we are. Not that they necessarily coordinate it, but they know the rules of the game better than we do. Still, there are places like Lebanon, that despite its occasional conflicts and identity issues, has been a refugee for a multi-colored people since over a thousand years. Not that we know the game any better, it is complicated after all.
 

My Moria Moon

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Attention whore. As if she went without knowing of such a protocol. Why go in the first place.

Citizen gave the answer.

So Marine Lepen got exactly what she wanted from her visit to Lebanon: more media attention.
Let's examine the mufti visit:
- Had she met him without a veil it would have been a win for her
- Not meeting him because of the veil is a win for her
- The meeting itself outside of the context of the veil show was pointless. She is not exactly trying to soften her image to go after voters with more moderate views on the subject, the latter already gave up on her.

Now regarding the Lebanese and French Lebanese interests, I am not fully versed on the subject but I tend to think that the EU membership and the dual citizenship have been beneficial.
 

hola!

Member
I agree there is a balance that should be struck when talking about idealism and being pragmatic, speaking broadly.

But its obvious the muslim population growth fears etc. are vastly inflated. Its the same story it was with various immigrant populations. The world is a complex place, and some people prefer to keep us fighting over identity issues and tiny-impact topics, rather than take the fight to where it really is, such as political representation, equality and an economy that serves the people. We as humans are not programed to tackle complex things, so politicians and financial elites play us for the monkeys we are. Not that they necessarily coordinate it, but they know the rules of the game better than we do. Still, there are places like Lebanon, that despite its occasional conflicts and identity issues, has been a refugee for a multi-colored people since over a thousand years. Not that we know the game any better, it is complicated after all.

Can’t agree more other than I doubt using the same approach repetitively will lead different results.
Digging a tunnel through a mountain in order to connect two opposite civilizations need the use of explosives just like removing cancerous growth from a human body needs surgery.
Radical approaches from Trump and Le Pen are long overdue and the only game in town after decades of confusion…
I say, let the chips fall where they may…
 

Holaco

Well-Known Member
I don't know much about Marine Le Pen. 1st time I hear about her

Some one tell me why people call her a fascists and racists ?! If she is against immigration and refugee coming to her country that make her an evil, facist and racist woman ?!!
 

nonsense

Legendary Member
Can’t agree more other than I doubt using the same approach repetitively will lead different results.
Digging a tunnel through a mountain in order to connect two opposite civilizations need the use of explosives just like removing cancerous growth from a human body needs surgery.
Radical approaches from Trump and Le Pen are long overdue and the only game in town after decades of confusion…
I say, let the chips fall where they may…
I would disagree with radical approaches. I distrust both extremes, because they feed off each other and erase those who stand in between. I don't buy in to their baskets just because I like some of their fruits. I believe in creating better baskets, that maintain human rights at home and abroad. Besides, humanity is all connected whether we like it or not, in both positive and negative ways. If we don't find a way to peacefully get along then climate change will do us a favor, I think.
 

hola!

Member
I would disagree with radical approaches. I distrust both extremes, because they feed off each other and erase those who stand in between. I don't buy in to their baskets just because I like some of their fruits. I believe in creating better baskets, that maintain human rights at home and abroad. Besides, humanity is all connected whether we like it or not, in both positive and negative ways. If we don't find a way to peacefully get along then climate change will do us a favor, I think.
Radical approaches are desperate approaches when we are faced with life or death situations.
Ask any victim beheaded by ISIS which approach would they take if they were to go back in time. I bet you each and everyone of them will kneel and kiss Trump's and Le Pen's feet for cracking the shell of stagnation and status quo.
 

Nonan

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
In the same way the Lebanese Americans hope that they will not be subject to the travel bans, the Lebanese French hope they will also be the exception.
That said, some do consider it a fair price to pay.
I came to notice that the Niemoller quote below falls completely flat on the mainstream Lebanese culture.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

This is what fascinates me about the trump / le pen supporters. They have likely not lived through the Pasqua days where you had to register every time you had to leave France because you were Lebanese. In the US, if your birthplace is Lebanon, you have to go to secondary immigration checking, even if you hold a different passport (not American). Wake up people. There are constitutions on both France and the US that does not allow these countries to discriminate based on religion. They will do it based on nationality / country of birth. Guess where Lebanon will fall when push comes to shove!

And Lebanese are by no means the only ones behaving like this. My mother in law keeps saying she opposes dual nationality when all her grandchildren are dual nationals (some even triple when you count the Lebanese nationality)
 

GrumpForTrump

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
This is what fascinates me about the trump / le pen supporters. They have likely not lived through the Pasqua days where you had to register every time you had to leave France because you were Lebanese. In the US, if your birthplace is Lebanon, you have to go to secondary immigration checking, even if you hold a different passport (not American). Wake up people. There are constitutions on both France and the US that does not allow these countries to discriminate based on religion. They will do it based on nationality / country of birth. Guess where Lebanon will fall when push comes to shove!

And Lebanese are by no means the only ones behaving like this. My mother in law keeps saying she opposes dual nationality when all her grandchildren are dual nationals (some even triple when you count the Lebanese nationality)


Lebanese Christians get the same suspect treatment at US airports.
 

Robin Hood

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
you were colonized in Lebanon.

you experienced 500 years of the ottoman empire.
you experienced couple of decades of french colonization.
and then, you experienced your independence.

can you point out in which period you were most respected as a human being and which of these periods had the most promise for your future?

when you do that i will answer your question.

Lebanon got lucky for demographic reasons.
Not the same thing in Algeria...
 

Nonan

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
Lebanon got lucky for demographic reasons.
Not the same thing in Algeria...
People should stop saying random things
1) Lebanon was never a colony. France had a mandate over Lebanon for ~25 years. Not the same things
2) Algeria was not a colony. It was considered part of France (unlike Morocco and Tunisia).

People use terms randomly. They should see what colonizing countries did to Africa. That doesn't mean subsequent rulers are not to blame but the colonizing powers put n place the root causes of the problems we saw afterward
 

Dark Angel

Legendary Member
Lebanon got lucky for demographic reasons.
Not the same thing in Algeria...

the algerian revolution was not all that different from the syrian revolution. most probably the people had the same motivation. some of the demands of the people were rightful, but do not warrant destroying their country and all the prospects of a decent life for it.

if you look at algeria today it has nothing to offer to its own citizens, and the same algerians who rejected the french citizenship once are now risking their lives to cross the mediterranean for a chance to live in france.

but do not think that algeria was a helpless victim when it was occupied. from 1800 to 1820, algeria was getting 10% of the united state annual revenues in ransoms for kidnapped us citizens and ships. and that was only from the us. in fact in 200 years algeria and tunesia have captured and sold more than 1.250.000 white Christian slaves from europe. in fact that was the very reason why the us marine force was founded.

and although the colonial powers should have done a better job in preparing the people under their mandate to become autonomous, the people were simply not ready, and it turned out they still aren't..
 

hola!

Member
Veiled surprise: Lebanon, meet Le Pen | Fox News

Veiled surprise: Lebanon, meet Le Pen

Published February 21, 2017



Marine Le Pen, French National Front (FN) political party leader and candidate for the French 2017 presidential elections, stands in front of the logo of the Christian Lebanese Forces party during her meeting with Samir Geagea, leader of the party, in Maarab, north of Beirut, Lebanon February 21, 2017. (REUTERS/Mohamed Azakir)

Sometimes, it’s not what’s in your head, but on it -- or rather not on it – that gets you remembered. France’s populist candidate for President, Marine Le Pen, just had such a moment. She’s feeling good about it.

Le Pen, who is running for her country’s top job on the right-wing National Front ticket, was in Lebanon this week to meet that country’s president. She also had a session scheduled with the country’s top Sunni Muslim cleric.

Her talk with President Michel Aoun, who is Christian, went well enough, according to most press reports. But when it came time to meet with Sheikh Abdel-Latif Derian, the French candidate was told that women were required to don headscarves before entering the presence of the religious leader.

Le Pen refused, and after a few awkward moments between her staff and the sheikh’s, abruptly called off the audience and left. “I consider the headscarf a symbol of a woman’s submission,” she said afterward. “I will not put on the veil.”

Whether Le Pen was truly surprised by the dust-up, or playing to her audience at home is an open question. She insists that her team informed the mufti’s staff the night before that she would show up bare-headed. Derian’s camp says she had agreed to don the veil.

Le Pen, who is leading in presidential polls before April’s first round of national elections, has long called for limits on immigrants coming to France – many of whom are Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. Her dramatic, attention-getting play in Beirut may not convince centrist French voters who are wary of her hardline positions, but it is certain to galvanize her core supporters.

Le Pen’s timing could not have been better. On the same day that she snubbed the Muslim mufti, police arrested three suspects in southern France for plotting what they called “an imminent terror attack.” That headline, juxtaposed with Le Pen’s face-down of a Muslim grandee, will reinforce her warning that France already has too many immigrants.

The Lebanon incident was covered quite differently by various news organizations. The Associated Press included this quote from Le Pen, referring to herself in the third person: “I note that when Marine Le Pen refuses to don the headscarf, it is criticized, but when Michelle Obama refused to do it in Saudi Arabia, it was considered admirable.”

Al Jazeera, which is funded by the ruling family of Qatar, was less generous. “This was a trap and a set-up because she wanted to send a message to her own voters and supporters that she somehow refused to respect the local customs in a Muslim-majority country,” its online report noted.

Note to Al Jazeera: you got it right, but for the wrong reason.

Le Pen has the same ability to sense the voters’ mood in her country as a long-shot candidate in the United States named Trump demonstrated last year on his way to the White House. That she is being criticized for taking a strong stand is only further evidence of the media’s double-standard toward conservative politicians.

Indeed, America’s former first lady, Michelle Obama, was credited with making “a bold political statement” when she declined the veil during her husband’s visit to the kingdom in 2015. Another former first lady, Laura Bush, also appeared with then-King Abdullah without head covering in 2006.

The Catholic Church used to request that women shroud their heads when they met with the Pope, but that custom has nearly faded from Vatican protocol. Hillary Clinton, when she was first lady, met Saint Pope John Paul II, her hair free to blow in the wind.

Bellwether thinks Le Pen smelled an opportunity to demonstrate strength and embrace Western values, and took it. She might not be popular in part of Lebanon, but her actions there shouted: “Vive La France!”
 
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