Gebran Bassil - Head of FPM, Leader of the Strong Lebanon Bloc and Former Minister of Foreign Affairs

dyyyy

dyyyy

Well-Known Member
Sorry to be pedantic about this, but I'm going to be pedantic about this. If we're going to criticize FPM for hiding corruption, let's at least be accurate. It does not make you an accessory to corruption if you make an electoral alliance or if you enter the same government. What makes you an accessory to corruption is being an accessory to corruption. If, for example, you're in the energy ministry and there are two choices of electricity before you, ships and plants. X wants you to pick ships because he gets a cut, but no one would get a cut of plants and it's a better deal. You pick ships so X can get a cut (even if you don't get a cut), you're an accessory to corruption. On the other hand, you know X is corrupt and you do an electoral alliance or enter the same government does not make one an accessory to corruption. The former is a completely valid criticism of a party abusing its power to cover corruption, and even participating in corruption. The latter is empty rhetoric made to rile people up and devoid of political power analysis.
I think the problem is that we take it as granted that corruption exists and we ignore it and try to work around it.

There was a whole revolution asking for an independent government, FPM has decided to make a government with Franjieh and give Amal the finance ministry in exchange of getting their own ministers. (This is where the 30 deputies come in handy when you ask what could they have done.)

There were demands for an independent judiciary system and the law was there to let the judges vote for themselves instead of letting politicians assign them.
They all obstructed it quietly where they could have made a huge change.

The problem is they loose us with all the speeches and the blames that you get lost trying to find who blocked what and who did what and believe me I know people from every party who thinks they're the ones who were proposing laws and fighting corruption and the others were blocking them.
 
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  • Dr. Strangelove

    Dr. Strangelove

    Nuclear War Expert
    Staff member
    There was a whole revolution asking for an independent government, FPM has decided to make a government with Franjieh and give Amal the finance ministry in exchange of getting their own ministers. (This is where the 30 deputies come in handy when you ask what could they have done.)
    You speak as if FPM controls the political scene the same way one would control The Sims.

    Do we have to explain how politics work every time? Law bterja3 lal FPM, bya3mlo government kemel FPM w bi kebbo el kel barra. If political newcomers win a few MPs next elections and get the right to oversee a couple of ministries, they will have to share that cabinet with other parties, new or old. If the newcomers want to have any hope of passing a law in parliament, they will have to coordinate with parties like the FPM. Does that mean they are now complicit? Allies? Best friends forever and ever?

    No. This is just politics. This is how democracies are run.
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I think the problem is that we take it as granted that corruption exists and we ignore it and try to work around it.

    There was a whole revolution asking for an independent government, FPM has decided to make a government with Franjieh and give Amal the finance ministry in exchange of getting their own ministers. (This is where the 30 deputies come in handy when you ask what could they have done.)

    There were demands for an independent judiciary system and the law was there to let the judges vote for themselves instead of letting politicians assign them.
    They all obstructed it quietly where they could have made a huge change.

    The problem is they loose us with all the speeches and the blames that you get lost trying to find who blocked what and who did what and believe me I know people from every party who thinks they're the ones who were proposing laws and fighting corruption and the others were blocking them.
    Yeah, I think the diagnosis of the problem is right and I agree. How would FPM have given anyone any ministries or even demanded a completely unaffiliated government with 29 MPs (27? I dunno I lost count of how many ditched the block)? They weren't in a position to fulfill or reject the revolution's demands alone. You deal with the cards the voters dealt.

    Where I think we diverge is the implicit criticism here is that they should have remained an (ineffective) loud opposition on the sidelines and not sacrificed their purity. And I can't accept that. As a party that was given some modicum of power by voters it was their obligation to--by any means available--attempt to exercise that power. Oppositions (in parliamentary systems, generally, but Lebanon's especially) are fairly useless. Did they make mistakes? Yes, the list is lo-o-ong. But should their supporters be mad they made them? I don't think so. You get scars trying to exercise power and you learn from it. I think/hope FPM is learning from it.

    I know people from every party who thinks they're the ones who were proposing laws and fighting corruption and the others were blocking them.
    Who can legitimately claim they did this in parliament though? Maybe, mayyyybe Kataeb in like the last few years? I also know people who think Nabih Berri has never put a penny in his pocket that belonged in state coffers, we don't have to believe them if they have no evidence to show for it ;)
     
    dyyyy

    dyyyy

    Well-Known Member
    You speak as if FPM controls the political scene the same way one would control The Sims.

    Do we have to explain how politics work every time? Law bterja3 lal FPM, bya3mlo government kemel FPM w bi kebbo el kel barra. If political newcomers win a few MPs next elections and get the right to oversee a couple of ministries, they will have to share that cabinet with other parties, new or old. If the newcomers want to have any hope of passing a law in parliament, they will have to coordinate with parties like the FPM. Does that mean they are now complicit? Allies? Best friends forever and ever?

    No. This is just politics. This is how democracies are run.
    Yeah, I think the diagnosis of the problem is right and I agree. How would FPM have given anyone any ministries or even demanded a completely unaffiliated government with 29 MPs (27? I dunno I lost count of how many ditched the block)? They weren't in a position to fulfill or reject the revolution's demands alone. You deal with the cards the voters dealt.
    They couldn't make the government without FPM this time because the others were divided but they chose other

    FPM did their part of the pressure (this is why it took so long to form the government), that's how they got their ministers, if they refused to give the trust to the government unless it's all independent, or at least without Amal getting the finance minister, it would have worked.
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    They couldn't make the government without FPM this time because the others were divided but they chose other

    FPM did their part of the pressure (this is why it took so long to form the government), that's how they got their ministers, if they refused to give the trust to the government unless it's all independent, or at least without Amal getting the finance minister, it would have worked.
    Putting aside whether or not it's accurate to label Akar, Najm and others FPM, it probably won't surprise you to know I pretty strongly disagree with this. It wasn't an option between this government and a truly independent government devoid of political affiliation, it was an option between this government and the previous government in some (cloaked) form. As much as we may wish otherwise, the independent people had very little leverage here without access to formal power. If FPM had stomped its feet in disagreement, my guess is we'd be looking at a FM-LF-HA-AMAL-PSP government or something resembling that. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how quickly others can coalesce to preserve themselves and their power. Everyone (maybe minus HA, to a degree (?)), would've been giddy to show FPM the door to the opposition room. And I think FPM recognized this when Bassil publicly stated that they would be in opposition if necessary around the time of the consultations that named Diab. In other words, if FPM hadn't given HA the Diab option and cornered Berri (and to an extent FM), it would be basically the same thing as before Oct. 17 minus FPM (and let's not pretend like this wouldn't have been given cover with the "most hated man in Lebanon" narrative). It's exactly what Hariri was looking for when he resigned, but was initially hobbled by LF. FPM played it smart here IMO, but, ultimately, neither of us can prove a counterfactual. Just making educated guesses based on the parties' behaviors and circumstances.

    I agree there should've been more pressure to get a better finance minister. I suppose they thought he could be balanced out with the PM/other ministers. But I agree that's a fight that shouldn't have been abandoned.
     
    Steven Gerrard

    Steven Gerrard

    New Member
    Putting aside whether or not it's accurate to label Akar, Najm and others FPM, it probably won't surprise you to know I pretty strongly disagree with this. It wasn't an option between this government and a truly independent government devoid of political affiliation, it was an option between this government and the previous government in some (cloaked) form. As much as we may wish otherwise, the independent people had very little leverage here without access to formal power. If FPM had stomped its feet in disagreement, my guess is we'd be looking at a FM-LF-HA-AMAL-PSP government or something resembling that.
    FPM wanted Hariri back. They didn't mind, I don't think we would have seen FPM in the opposition, I mean the country was in political vacuum for 2 years for FPM to get the presidency, so I don't think for them to throw in the towel and become the opposition after fighting hard to get the most coveted seat in the country. The only thing I'll give FPM credit for is that they didn't fall into Hariri's political schemes again and gave him what he wanted.
     
    Dr. Strangelove

    Dr. Strangelove

    Nuclear War Expert
    Staff member
    FPM wanted Hariri back. They didn't mind, I don't think we would have seen FPM in the opposition, I mean the country was in political vacuum for 2 years for FPM to get the presidency, so I don't think for them to throw in the towel and become the opposition after fighting hard to get the most coveted seat in the country. The only thing I'll give FPM credit for is that they didn't fall into Hariri's political schemes again and gave him what he wanted.
    If one thing is for sure, it was that FPM didn't want Hariri back. After erroneously betting on Hariri to come good and paying the political price for it for so long, and especially after Hariri made his intentions to stab FPM in the back clear with his resignation (a move FPM were not keen on for good reason despite how horrible the previous government was), FPM were absolutely pissed with Hariri. Remember the childish anti-Bassil headlines coming out daily from Hariri's camp? FPM were so opposed to him coming back that it visibly threatened their relationship with Hezbollah, who were lobbying for him to come back.

    I am in total agreement with @HalaMadrid's assessment of that situation, with the obvious disclaimer that we can only guess as to what really happened based on what we were seeing on the outside. Gebran and the FPM don't (can't?) get the credit they deserve for successfully pirouetting around a political minefield to make Diab's government a reality. Another example of a party acting in the best interest of the country with little political rewards to show for it (beyond the credit they would hopefully receive one day if their bet pays off and the country is put firmly on the right track).
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

    Paragon of Bacon
    Orange Room Supporter
    They couldn't make the government without FPM this time because the others were divided but they chose other

    FPM did their part of the pressure (this is why it took so long to form the government), that's how they got their ministers, if they refused to give the trust to the government unless it's all independent, or at least without Amal getting the finance minister, it would have worked.
    eh ken reji3 saad ra2is ma3 jumblat w anal(w ha) w LF w sami.
    w yaatik el 3afiye

    dont forget that they left fom out in 2005
     
    dyyyy

    dyyyy

    Well-Known Member
    eh ken reji3 saad ra2is ma3 jumblat w anal(w ha) w LF w sami.
    w yaatik el 3afiye

    dont forget that they left fom out in 2005
    eh w lek wein sar FPM min wa2ta la halla2 la2eno ma meche ma3oun.

    halla2 ok FPM jouwwa bas chou stafadna?
    fet ma3oun bi hay lle3be w rayya7o rasoun minno w be2e ll systeme houeh zeto.
     
    dyyyy

    dyyyy

    Well-Known Member
    Putting aside whether or not it's accurate to label Akar, Najm and others FPM, it probably won't surprise you to know I pretty strongly disagree with this. It wasn't an option between this government and a truly independent government devoid of political affiliation, it was an option between this government and the previous government in some (cloaked) form. As much as we may wish otherwise, the independent people had very little leverage here without access to formal power. If FPM had stomped its feet in disagreement, my guess is we'd be looking at a FM-LF-HA-AMAL-PSP government or something resembling that. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how quickly others can coalesce to preserve themselves and their power. Everyone (maybe minus HA, to a degree (?)), would've been giddy to show FPM the door to the opposition room. And I think FPM recognized this when Bassil publicly stated that they would be in opposition if necessary around the time of the consultations that named Diab. In other words, if FPM hadn't given HA the Diab option and cornered Berri (and to an extent FM), it would be basically the same thing as before Oct. 17 minus FPM (and let's not pretend like this wouldn't have been given cover with the "most hated man in Lebanon" narrative). It's exactly what Hariri was looking for when he resigned, but was initially hobbled by LF. FPM played it smart here IMO, but, ultimately, neither of us can prove a counterfactual. Just making educated guesses based on the parties' behaviors and circumstances.

    I agree there should've been more pressure to get a better finance minister. I suppose they thought he could be balanced out with the PM/other ministers. But I agree that's a fight that shouldn't have been abandoned.
    Look what you're saying is understandable, yes if FPM put pressure they could have put them aside and make a government without them.
    But at least people would have a leader to stand with.
    The biggest problem with the protests is that they don't have a leader. Imagine what would have happened if when the protests started FPM was still in the opposition.

    If we don't make a REAL change we will spend our lifes celebrating the fact that out of millions of corruption cases we're able to open 1 case every couple of years (with noone getting arrested of course) and have a small project working every now and then.

    This is where we are now.
     
    Iron Maiden

    Iron Maiden

    Paragon of Bacon
    Orange Room Supporter
    eh w lek wein sar FPM min wa2ta la halla2 la2eno ma meche ma3oun.

    halla2 ok FPM jouwwa bas chou stafadna?
    fet ma3oun bi hay lle3be w rayya7o rasoun minno w be2e ll systeme houeh zeto.
    what is this talk, this is one of the most efficient gvt we’ve ever had, making the most critical choices that will define the future of the country. u would’ve prefered that fpm be out of it and let saad and nabih handle how it steers thing?

    tell me, in your social circles and ur oersonal social media, how many messages abd bids do you recieve daily abt the dams, electricity and corruption? do you know they are all lies? manipulations? how many vidz do you receive other parties i am curious to know why do
    you think that is.k
    the point is that fpm on the inside is a much more reliable tool than having them alone steer the country by miles. its high time you woke up to that idea already.
     
    Chanklish

    Chanklish

    Well-Known Member
    يعني يا فاسدين و ما بدكن تحاربوا الفساد .. يا مكسكسين و مش قادرين تحاربوا الفساد .. نقو وحدة
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Look what you're saying is understandable, yes if FPM put pressure they could have put them aside and make a government without them.
    But at least people would have a leader to stand with.
    The biggest problem with the protests is that they don't have a leader. Imagine what would have happened if when the protests started FPM was still in the opposition.

    If we don't make a REAL change we will spend our lifes celebrating the fact that out of millions of corruption cases we're able to open 1 case every couple of years (with noone getting arrested of course) and have a small project working every now and then.

    This is where we are now.
    I hear ya. I guess I'm just sort of cynical and have soured on the idea of "real" change and the possibility of it coming about short of literal pitchforks and guillotines, not figurative ones. And even then I'm sour on the idea that what the status quo would be replaced with is better and not worse. I'm coming around to the fact that politics is an insider game and change comes through some measure of incrementalism and how incremental it is depends on how serious the actors inside of it are, the amount of leverage they have on one another, and--to a lesser degree--the substantive pressure for policy change people are able to put on it.

    I also vehemently disagree that the people or the protesters (generally speaking, maybe you personally would have maybe some others would have) seen FPM as any sort of leader for them had they taken a principled stance outside the government. The hate and vitriol for FPM is real and palpable among the more prominent voices on the internet at least (and I'm not even talking about internet clowns like Gino, I mean serious people), and I think that's reflected in the population. I just don't see--no matter how principled FPM's stance would have been--how any of those folks would have even praised the party, much less stood beside it, for taking a principled stance. I don't know how you support a party (much LESS see them as a leader of the movement) that you've already labeled as "castrated fascists" <--that's just one of the many colorful descriptions I've seen, Megaphone, for example, has had some other fun ones. I certainly wouldn't support a party I put that label on.

    PS - the protests starting when FPM was in opposition is a counterfactual I think many of us agree we'd love to be in. :/
     
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