Great Lebanon 100 years commemoration and the debate about Lebanon ?? History

  • Thread starter Thawra # Furoshima
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Great Lebanon creation by the Maronite and the French Crusader

  • Was a historical mistake

    Votes: 7 58.3%
  • Was a great success

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Was moderate success

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • A scandal some Sunnis defend the Ottoman State and criticize the President

    Votes: 5 41.7%
  • The State was mistaken to abrogate 7 May Martyrs Day Holiday

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Lebanon is mainly a Phoenician History

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Lebanon is an Arab Country

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Lebanon civilization is Based on Western and Christians Values

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Lebanon is both Arabic and Phoenician

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Islam conquest of Middle East was a disaster

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Thank God Mount Lebanon protected the Christians from Muslim Oppression

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Thank God Lebanon is different than all Muslim or Arab Countries with its Christians face

    Votes: 3 25.0%
  • Muslim Conquest of the Middle East was good

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Muslim should dominate Lebanon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Friday should replace Saturday as a Holiday like all Muslim Countries

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12
Resign

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When it's an established pattern of muh mountain, it sure does! But please do explain the reasoning behind your little leap there ?
Pattern is gone
Druze and Christians always fought for dominance
Today they're both fighting for their existence or maybe relevance

Right now if Christians and Druze go into battle they'll be signing on their own death warrants
 
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  • Isabella

    Isabella

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    Pattern is gone
    Druze and Christians always fought for dominance
    Today they're both fighting for their existence

    Right now if Christians and Druze go into battle they'll be signing on their own death warrants
    You guys need to collectively understand that what is being discussed here is a theoretical state of mount Lebanon where only Druze and Christians exist! Historical context is relevant in this case in order to make an informed guess about its present state. Ye3ne Druze and Christians being both a minority in actual Lebanon is irrelevant! I'm discussing the state of the Christians in mount Lebanon previously Vs Lebanon now and a theoretical mount Lebanon Vs greater Syria I guess now

    Meaning Druze and Christians in theoretical mount Lebanon would actually still be fighting for dominance since they would not be eclipsed by the big bad Muslims
     
    Resign

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    You guys need to collectively understand that what is being discussed here is a theoretical state of mount Lebanon where only Druze and Christians exist! Historical context is relevant in this case in order to make an informed guess about its present state. Ye3ne Druze and Christians being both a minority in actual Lebanon is irrelevant! I'm discussing the state of the Christians in mount Lebanon previously Vs Lebanon now and a theoretical mount Lebanon Vs greater Syria I guess now
    You're right
    well in that case, i doubt Druze would fight the christians solo, they became on the disadvantage demographics wise long ago
    they might broker some invasion 'planning' to obtain power by force, which brings me back to my point saying that i think Lebanon in a Mount Lebanon setting wouldn't have survived the 20th century.
     
    Isabella

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    You're right
    well in that case, i doubt Druze would fight the christians solo, they became on the disadvantage demographics wise long ago
    they might broker some invasion and obtain power by force, which brings me back to my point saying that i think Lebanon in a Mount Lebanon setting wouldn't have survived the 20th century.
    In theoretical mount Lebanon you'd have no zahle, no kesserwan, no batroun, jbeil zgharta ehden etc. so a big chunk of Christians left behind. The civil war would have been 10 times worse for Christians as their closest support in the form of Israel would have had to come through Syrian territory and all the diplomatic jargon that accompanies that whereas there was no shortage of support from the nearby Muslim brothers for the pretend Muslims in mount Lebanon ?.

    But I do agree this version would not have survived a 20th century setting lol! Entire exercise is to make people actually think about it before spouting nonsense like the Christians were better off before the creation of Lebanon, oh yeah big historical mistake, and you know the rest of the sentimental crap
     
    Resign

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    In theoretical mount Lebanon you'd have no zahle, no kesserwan, no zgharta ehden etc. so a big chunk of Christians left behind. The civil war would have been 10 times worse for Christians as their closest support in the form of Israel would have had to come through Syrian territory and all the diplomatic jargon that accompanies that whereas there was no shortage of support from the nearby Muslim brothers for the pretend Muslims in mount Lebanon ?.

    But I do agree this version would not have survived a 20th century setting lol! Entire exercise is to make people actually think about it before spouting nonsense like the Christians were better off before the creation of Lebanon, oh yeah big historical mistake, and you know the rest of the sentimental crap
    But Keserwan and parts of the North were part of β€˜Mount Lebanon Mutasarifye’ prior 1920

    1568120087747.png
     
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    Oof yes I was thinking of modern day mount Lebanon not the 1861 version. Oh well more Christians to kill then :p
    (1) Consider a doctor for your Druze Derangement Syndrome and Christian Persecution Complex. A Maronite-Druze smaller Lebanon is still possible. And Maronites will rule. Most Druze are patriotic and realize we're too small of a minority to go back to our old political status. So a Druze-Israeli-like relation between Druze and Maronites can still be established in Smaller Lebanon (Mt Lebanon) if it was separated.

    (2) You seem to suggest that we should allow you to "trod on us" for you to feel at home. The point of the beehive model is "leave everyone be doing their own thing".

    (3) You and @Nonan ( أبو طيز Ψ₯دارية) should plan a visit to Ψ«ΩƒΩ†Ψ© المشرف and smell the walls. Maybe you'll feel a sense of shame and remember what your fathers did, since you like to speak about slaughtered elderly and women, when your side (and Aoun specifically) professed in that more than any group in Lebanon. The Druze are religiously ordained to never target women, children and elderly (even attested to by 1860 writings by Christians), And no group in Lebanon committed anything close to the horror of massacring hundreds of civilians welcoming them with roses and then busing them like ISIS. Or when Aoun ordered Syrian women to be strapped under tanks in the Unesco massacre while he masturbated in a jeep.
     
    Isabella

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    (1) Consider a doctor for your Druze Derangement Syndrome and Christian Persecution Complex. A Maronite-Druze smaller Lebanon is still possible. And Maronites will rule. Most Druze are patriotic and realize we're too small of a minority to go back to our old political status. So a Druze-Israeli-like relation between Druze and Maronites can still be established in Smaller Lebanon (Mt Lebanon) if it was separated.

    (2) You seem to suggest that we should allow you to "trod on us" for you to feel at home. The point of the beehive model is "leave everyone be doing their own thing".

    (3) You and @Nonan ( أبو طيز Ψ₯دارية) should plan a visit to Ψ«ΩƒΩ†Ψ© المشرف and smell the walls. Maybe you'll feel a sense of shame and remember what your fathers did, since you like to speak about slaughtered elderly and women, when your side (and Aoun specifically) professed in that more than any group in Lebanon. The Druze are religiously ordained to never target women, children and elderly (even attested to by 1860 writings by Christians), And no group in Lebanon committed anything close to the horror of massacring hundreds of civilians welcoming them with roses and then busing them like ISIS. Or when Aoun ordered Syrian women to be strapped under tanks in the Unesco massacre while he masturbated in a jeep.
    3. Is that why they did it in Rashaya? Even going so far as to slaughter infants?

    2. How exactly did the Christians trod on you in the 1860 war and after to push you to a state in which you brag about killing them? You literally stated it was "your mountain" when in reality the people who got slaughtered also called it their home.

    1. You must have missed the entire reason why I brought this discussion up. But once again since apparently you really enjoy playing the victim, I brought it up because you and others were claiming Christians were better off under the druze, that wasn't the case in reality as evidenced by historical facts! So you can take that Druze derangement syndrome thing and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
     
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    3. Is that why they did it in Rashaya? Even going so far as to slaughter infants?
    Not sure what you are referring to exactly. But it's probably an outlier. Part of Druze religious law, "if you see the women and children of enemies, do not target them but let them pass, even if they pass from your own towns." Hence, why you'd find that practiced in 1860 writings that attest that Druze didn't touch the women and children. Or when Druze won Zahle but didn't want to pillage the city or touch the townsmen (but Shiahs pillaged it due to old conflicts, eventually).

    If you're interested in citations, I can provide you ones from Christian websites.

    2. How exactly did the Christians trod on you in the 1860 war and after to push you to a state in which you brag about killing them? You literally stated it was "your mountain" when in reality the people who got slaughtered also called it their home.
    Refer to "Lebanon's Predicament". Christian leaders were publicly calling in 1841 for the total annihilation of the Druze, a minority, mostly for not being "Christian enough" and because of Druze inter-fighting (Qaysi vs Yemeni) that weakened our ranks. If Druze were not under existential threat, they wouldn't have been paranoid and arming up for 20+ years.

    I refer to it as "my mountain" because I live there, like the Maronite women in my village refers to it as "her mountain" and "her village". I'm not the sole owner of the mountain. If anything, the Druze are just numbers on a paper, and most of us are immigrants of a shrinking minority.

    1. You must have missed the entire reason why I brought this discussion up. But once again since apparently you really enjoy playing the victim, I brought it up because you and others were claiming Christians were better off under the druze, that wasn't the case in reality as evidenced by historical facts! So you can take that Druze derangement syndrome thing and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
    No, I was saying Christians would have been better off and would be better off if they worked out a Maronite - Druze Lebanon where the Maronites ruled. Druze would be given securities, but as the smaller fish, would naturally have less political power than the Christians.

    I believe people here don't seek Druze rulers. But believe original Lebanon is Druze + Maronites in the mountains. And could work out.
     
    Thawra # Furoshima

    Thawra # Furoshima

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    Not sure what you are referring to exactly. But it's probably an outlier. Part of Druze religious law, "if you see the women and children of enemies, do not target them but let them pass, even if they pass from your own towns." Hence, why you'd find that practiced in 1860 writings that attest that Druze didn't touch the women and children. Or when Druze won Zahle but didn't want to pillage the city or touch the townsmen (but Shiahs pillaged it due to old conflicts, eventually).

    If you're interested in citations, I can provide you ones from Christian websites.



    Refer to "Lebanon's Predicament". Christian leaders were publicly calling in 1841 for the total annihilation of the Druze, a minority, mostly for not being "Christian enough" and because of Druze inter-fighting (Qaysi vs Yemeni) that weakened our ranks. If Druze were not under existential threat, they wouldn't have been paranoid and arming up for 20+ years.

    I refer to it as "my mountain" because I live there, like the Maronite women in my village refers to it as "her mountain" and "her village". I'm not the sole owner of the mountain. If anything, the Druze are just numbers on a paper, and most of us are immigrants of a shrinking minority.



    No, I was saying Christians would have been better off and would be better off if they worked out a Maronite - Druze Lebanon where the Maronites ruled. Druze would be given securities, but as the smaller fish, would naturally have less political power than the Christians.

    I believe people here don't seek Druze rulers. But believe original Lebanon is Druze + Maronites in the mountains. And could work out.
    Which year the Druze felt they ceased to govern the mountain
    1750 ???
    Can you give a Druze perspective
    What do you feel about Fakhr al din maan 2
    1590/1635
    History is better than politics
     
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    Ice Tea

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    3. Is that why they did it in Rashaya? Even going so far as to slaughter infants?

    2. How exactly did the Christians trod on you in the 1860 war and after to push you to a state in which you brag about killing them? You literally stated it was "your mountain" when in reality the people who got slaughtered also called it their home.

    1. You must have missed the entire reason why I brought this discussion up. But once again since apparently you really enjoy playing the victim, I brought it up because you and others were claiming Christians were better off under the druze, that wasn't the case in reality as evidenced by historical facts! So you can take that Druze derangement syndrome thing and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
    There are still Christians in Rashaya and even Hasbaya, the Roums there actually live side by side with the Druze and interact everyday with them, go to the same schools etc. That is because they share the same civilized lifestyle. They are not like the last remaining Christians in Tripoli and Sidon who live completely isolated from Muslims, or the Christians from Nabatieh, Tebnine and Tyre who basically all left. And btw, Zahle used to have a Druze population.
     
    Isabella

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    Not sure what you are referring to exactly. But it's probably an outlier. Part of Druze religious law, "if you see the women and children of enemies, do not target them but let them pass, even if they pass from your own towns." Hence, why you'd find that practiced in 1860 writings that attest that Druze didn't touch the women and children. Or when Druze won Zahle but didn't want to pillage the city or touch the townsmen (but Shiahs pillaged it due to old conflicts, eventually).

    If you're interested in citations, I can provide you ones from Christian websites.
    I'm referring to the Rashaya massacre, which I just googled more in details and apparently the women weren't killed just the children

    Druze fighters massacred about 1,000 Christian males, adults and children, while sparing the women.[25] According to an account by a Christian survivor, "the men were slaughtered in the embrace of their wives and the children at the breasts of their mothers".[25] About 40-50 men survived after managing to escape.[25

    But yes please provide citations :p

    Regarding zahle, while it's true that Muslims were the ones doing the pillaging following Druze destruction, this is how it went down:

    On 18 June, Druze forces under Khattar Imad's command and reinforced by Shia peasants and Sunni Sardiyah Bedouin cavalry from Hauran (3,000 men altogether) began their assault on Zahle, some of whose defenders were feuding among each other at the time of the attack. The Druze assault was well-planned according to accounts of the battle, with some of their forces attacking Zahle's well-defended eastern, southern and western sides, while Imad's contingent launched a surprise attack against the town from the north. The Zahalni had not concentrated their fortifications at Zahle's north because they expected that side of town to be safe due to the heavy Christian presence there. Furthermore, they were still expecting Karam's men to be arriving from the north side (they had not yet been notified of his troops' halt at Bikfaya).[29] Imad disguised his contingent as Christians by adorning them with crosses and Christian flags taken from slain Christian fighters in previous battles. Thus, when Imad and his men approached Zahle from the north, its defenders enthusiastically welcomed them, believing them to be Karam's men.[30]

    As Imad's Druze forces entered Zahle, they proceeded to burn down its northern neighborhoods. When Druze forces commanded by Isma'il al-Atrash saw the flames emanating from northern Zahle, they stormed the town. Within hours, Zahle was under Druze control. Zahle's residents panicked and fled the town for Metn, Keserwan and al-Sahil. By 19 June, the town was emptied of its inhabitants. The Christians suffered between 40 and 900 casualties, while the Druze and their allies suffered between 100 and 1,500 casualties. The Druze agreed beforehand not to loot Zahle, but the Sardiyah Bedouin tribesmen plundered the town, taking money, horses and jewellery

    So while they didn't pillage it, their comrades in arms did, and they did burn some of it down.


    Refer to "Lebanon's Predicament". Christian leaders were publicly calling in 1841 for the total annihilation of the Druze, a minority, mostly for not being "Christian enough" and because of Druze inter-fighting (Qaysi vs Yemeni) that weakened our ranks. If Druze were not under existential threat, they wouldn't have been paranoid and arming up for 20+ years.
    And the Druze were upset about losing their special privileges as Muslims, and the Christians started a revolution against their Druze overlords, etc. The Druze seem to always be paranoid and under an existential threat, you just said you think they'll up and move to Syria whereas I don't really see anyone threatening their existence in Lebanon, but I guess you know more since it is your community!

    I refer to it as "my mountain" because I live there, like the Maronite women in my village refers to it as "her mountain" and "her village". I'm not the sole owner of the mountain. If anything, the Druze are just numbers on a paper, and most of us are immigrants of a shrinking minority.
    That's not the context in which you used this expression and you know it, especially since I pointed it out multiple times already lol!



    No, I was saying Christians would have been better off and would be better off if they worked out a Maronite - Druze Lebanon where the Maronites ruled. Druze would be given securities, but as the smaller fish, would naturally have less political power than the Christians.
    That's not something the Druze would agree to, even theoretically speaking! I understand the whole alliance of minorities concept, unfortunately that's not achievable, it's as much a pipe dream as looking nostalgically at a period marred by constant turmoil between the Druze and the Christians.

    I believe people here don't seek Druze rulers. But believe original Lebanon is Druze + Maronites in the mountains. And could work out.
    That's not technically what I said, at the time of 1860 war the druze were the de facto rulers since they hand the money, the land and the Christians were peasants. The original model of Lebanon did not work out, nor did the new model of Lebanon, there's something not clicking in a country where multiple civil wars occur. We're all basically an assembly of people who disagree with each other but happen to love this little piece of land so we tolerate each other for a while until it blows up again :p

    Side note: I need to point out that I have nothing against the Druze, I grew up with them and still have some old childhood friends that I keep in contact with (their parents were mostly ssnp refugees in our village), my interest in this discussion stops at my attempt to prove that the mount Lebanon model so many people hold dear was a failed one.
     
    Isabella

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    There are still Christians in Rashaya and even Hasbaya, the Roums there actually live side by side with the Druze and interact everyday with them, go to the same schools etc. That is because they share the same civilized lifestyle. They are not like the last remaining Christians in Tripoli and Sidon who live completely isolated from Muslims, or the Christians from Nabatieh, Tebnine and Tyre who basically all left. And btw, Zahle used to have a Druze population.
    Re. Rashaya and Hasbaya those were included in the 1860 discussion, and no I'm pretty certain there were no Druze in zahle, even Maronites were not allowed to enter zahle until later in history, still to this day zahle minus the suburbs is mostly Greek Catholic.

    I'm not interested in your little d*ck measuring contest re. Other Muslims so that's why it's been ignored
     
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    Which year the Druze felt they ceased to govern the mountain
    1750 ???
    Pretty much. But throughout Druze history, it was always tumultuous due to foreign powers. We lost a lot of lands and power to Ottomans and Sunnis in the 1600s.


    Can you give a Druze perspective
    What do you feel about Fakhr al din maan 2
    1590/1635
    History is better than politics
    Fakhr Al Din 2 is perhaps my favorite historic leader. He started as an inexperienced and isolated clan leader in the mountains, but mastered politics and cultural and economical reformation as if it was his natural talent. He ultimately failed . But was also was able to carry Christian and European culture into the Druze, who at that time were more of stubborn and isolated mountain warriors.
     
    Ice Tea

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    Re. Rashaya and Hasbaya those were included in the 1860 discussion, and no I'm pretty certain there were no Druze in zahle, even Maronites were not allowed to enter zahle until later in history, still to this day zahle minus the suburbs is mostly Greek Catholic.

    I'm not interested in your little d*ck measuring contest re. Other Muslims so that's why it's been ignored

    Zahle has always been regarded the Christian capital of Lebanon because it includes all Christian sects.

    65% Melkite Greek Catholic
    15% Maronite
    10% Greek Orthodox
    10% Syriacs, Armenians, Assyrians

    And yes, there used to be a Druze community in Zahle before the war.
     
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    Re. Rashaya and Hasbaya those were included in the 1860 discussion, and no I'm pretty certain there were no Druze in zahle, even Maronites were not allowed to enter zahle until later in history, still to this day zahle minus the suburbs is mostly Greek Catholic.

    I'm not interested in your little d*ck measuring contest re. Other Muslims so that's why it's been ignored
    Wrong on both accounts. Zahle had a good number of Maronite refugees. And it had a Druze population.
     
    Isabella

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    Zahle has always been regarded the Christian capital of Lebanon because it includes all Christian sects.

    65% Melkite Greek Catholic
    15% Maronite
    10% Greek Orthodox
    10% Syriacs, Armenians, Assyrians

    And yes, there used to be a Druze community in Zahle before the war.
    Historically speaking the Greek Catholics of zahle were not accepting of the Maronites, they were relegated to the suburbs mostly hosh l omara, they still like to pick on them as not the original inhabitants to this day.
     
    Isabella

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    Wrong on both accounts. Zahle had a good number of Maronite refugees. And it had a Druze population.
    Read what I wrote again! Maronite refugees lived in the suburbs not the main city. Re. Druze I'm not really sure which is why I said I'm pretty certain as opposed to being 100% sure
     
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    Druze fighters massacred about 1,000 Christian males, adults and children, while sparing the women.[25] According to an account by a Christian survivor, "the men were slaughtered in the embrace of their wives and the children at the breasts of their mothers".[25] About 40-50 men survived after managing to escape.
    It seems like the Druze fighters here were following Muhammedan "Banu Qurayza" law. Not the Druze faith.

    The Druze seem to always be paranoid and under an existential threat, you just said you think they'll up and move to Syria whereas I don't really see anyone threatening their existence in Lebanon, but I guess you know more since it is your community!
    I didn't say Leb Druze will move to Syria. I said the "political power" would. The ruling abayya. The ultimate source of Druze leadership.

    And no, currently, aside from ISIS which is almost dead, there's no existential threat to the Druze. Hezbollah is more a of a political danger. But we trust that Twelver Shiahs are not genocidalists.

    I understand the whole alliance of minorities concept, unfortunately that's not achievable, it's as much a pipe dream as looking nostalgically at a period marred by constant turmoil between the Druze and the Christians.
    Jews and Druze had a bit of turmoil in the 1800s too. With massacres involved. Wouldn't you say Druze are doing just fine in the Jewish nation of Israel? And why can a Druze prosper under a Jewish rule and not as well under a Maronite rule?


    That's not technically what I said, at the time of 1860 war the druze were the de facto rulers since they hand the money, the land and the Christians were peasants. The original model of Lebanon did not work out, nor did the new model of Lebanon, there's something not clicking in a country where multiple civil wars occur. We're all basically an assembly of people who disagree with each other but happen to love this little piece of land so we tolerate each other for a while until it blows up again :p
    Lebanon is not the same as before. It's now more of a summer house for immigrants than a nation with fighting clans. And so your drastic scenarios are far-fetched.
     
    Isabella

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    It seems like the Druze fighters here were following Muhammedan "Banu Qurayza" law. Not the Druze faith.

    I didn't say Leb Druze will move to Syria. I said the "political power" would. The ruling abayya. The ultimate source of Druze leadership.

    And no, currently, aside from ISIS which is almost dead, there's no existential threat to the Druze. Hezbollah is more a of a political danger. But we trust that Twelver Shiahs are not genocidalists.

    Jews and Druze had a bit of turmoil in the 1800s too. With massacres involved. Wouldn't you say Druze are doing just fine in the Jewish nation of Israel? And why can a Druze prosper under a Jewish rule and not as well under a Maronite rule?

    Lebanon is not the same as before. It's now more of a summer house for immigrants than a nation with fighting clans. And so your drastic scenarios are far-fetched.
    The Druze in Israel never thought of it as "their mountain" so they had no reason to kick the Jews out :p but regarding your Jewish- Druze conflict, why go so far in history? The ssnp had many Druze members who were among the first to fight the Israeli invasion, heck my best friend's father used to brag about getting shot in the head fighting Israel

    The entire point I'm trying to make is that the nostalgic view on mount Lebanon is not realistic, nor is your theoretical Druze Christian separation! How exactly would you go about it? Welcome the Christians that were kicked out of their homes in mount Lebanon back with open arms and then declare a sovereign nation?

    Also I'm not the one making scenarios here! You guys are with your theoretical Druze Christian nation where everyone holds hand and sings Kumbaya!
     
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