HA and its supporters - Discussion of Wilayat Al Faqih

Dry Ice

Dry Ice

Legendary Member
Avec des si, tout le monde pourrait mathématiquement être le pape...
You don't get it, Khamenei told Hezbollah that it's OK to go on so they did. There's no IF there.

Revenant à tes suppositions insidieuses, qui relève plutôt du débat byzantin:
1. Fadlallah est Libanais et est une référence pour les shias (comme Khamenei)
No one spoke of Fadlallah


4. C'est la majorité qui viole la constution et non pas notre Grande Résistance Nationale
Unrelated


5. Khamenei est pour certains chiites l'équivalent du pape pour les catholiques. A quoi çà sert de leur faire des procès d'intentions?
If the Lebanese Forces (the closest thing to the Hezbollah from the other side) decide to base their electoral participation upon guidance from the pope, they're as much guilty.


Que veux-tu dire, que les Libanais shias sont irresponsables, ne méritent pas d'être considérés en adultes et ne doiven pas être traités à égalité avec les autres.
Je te félicite pour ce genre de réflexions...
You're missing it completely
 
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  • nizaryahya

    nizaryahya

    Well-Known Member
    So if Al Wali Al Faqih tells the Lebanese leadership of HA that such a move would have been non-islamic, that wouldn't have been tantamount to decision-making?
    What is the point you are making? People who follow global principles that spread to areas outside Lebanon should not exist in Lebanon?

    This is like asking what if the league of socialist parties decided that a certain move is not acceptable in general.
    The international bank issues many doctrines of how economies should be directed... The European union issues many declarations on how things should go. The Pope issues so many doctrines on how politics should be exercised and how people should be addressed (including perceptions about Prophet Muhammad and muslim minorities in Europe, and the life style in Turkey)...
    If someone follows these directions is he less of a Lebanese?
    Why all these are respected and Phobia is spread when it comes to a Shia marja3/faqih (be it khamenei, fadlallah, or sistani).


    Anyway the guidelines were yes, an islamic party should engage in local politics and should follow local laws and order.
    You either respect those people and their line of thinking, or you reject them and alienate them.

    I hope you exit this cycle of alienation and engage in the reality that they are open minded and contributing and will be here for a long period of time.
     
    حسن

    حسن

    New Member
    You don't get it, Khamenei told Hezbollah that it's OK to go on so they did. There's no IF there.



    No one spoke of Fadlallah




    Unrelated




    If the Lebanese Forces (the closest thing to the Hezbollah from the other side) decide to base their participation upon guidance from the pope, they're as much guilty.




    You're missing it completely
    Tu sembles ne pas avoir compris ce que j'ai dit. Alors je vais te le répéter []... :
    1. Fadlallah est une référence religieuse pour les chiites du monde entier, tout comme Khamenei. les gens du HA peuvent tout a fait suivre l'un ou l'autre
    .
    2. Le pape qui est la référence des catholiques est ussi faillible que Khamenei ou Fadlallah (il a meme ete enrole de force dans les jeunesses hitlérienne et semble en garder quelques choses)

    3. Tu pointe sur HA et sa fidélité première à la référence de Khamanei avant le Liban et sa constitution, je te réponds qu'en attendant ce n'est pas HA qui ne respecte pas le Liban et sa constitution et tu me réponds que cela n'a rien avoir. Donc au moins tu reconnais donc que ce sont la calamité du 14 fevrier qui viole la constitution du Liban alors que HA a donné des mlilliers de martyrs pour libérer le Liban et le défendre face aux agressions israéliennes dont la dernière a été lancée en connivence avec la calamité du 14 fevrier

    4. Donc selon toi HA est coupable et les LF POURRAIENT l'etre. Je te félicite pour ta clairvoyance. Et c'est quoi cette culpabilité grave que tu prete a SHN? J'ai l'impression de perdre mon temps en répondant à de telles absurdités

    5. Tu reviens sur ce que tu as dit au début et tu reconnais donc aux libanais shias le droit d'etre traites a egalite avec les autres. Ce qui prouve que tes questions ne valaient pas plus que celles sur le sexe das anges...
     
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    Dry Ice

    Dry Ice

    Legendary Member
    What is the point you are making? People who follow global principles that spread to areas outside Lebanon should not exist in Lebanon?

    This is like asking what if the league of socialist parties decided that a certain move is not acceptable in general.
    The international bank issues many doctrines of how economies should be directed... The European union issues many declarations on how things should go. The Pope issues so many doctrines on how politics should be exercised and how people should be addressed (including perceptions about Prophet Muhammad and muslim minorities in Europe, and the life style in Turkey)...
    If someone follows these directions is he less of a Lebanese?
    Why all these are respected and Phobia is spread when it comes to a Shia marja3/faqih (be it khamenei, fadlallah, or sistani).
    There's quite a difference between the above example and a systematic process preached within Hezbollah and its relationship to Wilayat Al Faqih.


    Anyway the guidelines were yes, an islamic party should engage in local politics and should follow local laws and order.
    You either respect those people and their line of thinking, or you reject them and alienate them.
    Here comes the middle line of respecting while disagreeing on their line of thinking. If disagreement is equal to rejection/alienation then surely there should be something wrong in the system.


    I hope you exit this cycle of alienation and engage in the reality that they are open minded and contributing and will be here for a long period of time.
    Dunno how you reached that conclusion but here's your answer:

    FPM did its job and "shaped" with Hizb the skeleton of the solution. The framework for such a solution is quite definable, fixed and has a 1, 2, 3 and some side-notes.

    The 1 and 2 are crystal-clear. The 3 might be elastic but here are my questions to the government you support and the world powers who support that government (actually keep it in existence) and claim that resolving the weapons issue is a top priority for them:

    Where the heck have you been? What have you contributed to finding a solution? Are you that impotent not to be able to put some flesh and skin on that skeleton we built for you at zero-cost in lives or material? Isn't all that cost expended since July, with no end in sight for it, 10-fold the cost that was needed to make that item 3 elastic-no-more and turn it into a reality? Is a "solution" to the weapons issue and solidifying state authority your real goal? We're starting to have doubts... maybe the problem you have is not in the 1, 2, or 3... maybe it's somewhere in the side-notes... who knows!

    Do you?
    Fully agree on the need to think of the how as much if not more than the what...
    I think we should implement your plan anyway but as you (the real you) say: how? I am all ears.
    Coopting both the Shiite constituency of Hezbollah and Hezbollah members/leaders themselves.

    I guess what FPM is doing is a start whoever it remains to be seen whether it's a tactical vs a strategic alliance and for what specific goals.
     
    Dry Ice

    Dry Ice

    Legendary Member
    1. Fadlallah est une référence religieuse pour les chiites du monde entier, tout comme Khamenei. les gens du HA peuvent tout a fait suivre l'un ou l'autre
    Fadlallah is a reference to Shiites, Khamenei is a reference to a political party.


    2. Le pape qui est la référence des catholiques est ussi faillible que Khamenei ou Fadlallah (il a meme ete enrole de force dans les jeunesses hitlérienne et semble en garder quelques choses)
    Unrelated


    3. Tu pointe sur HA et sa fidélité première à la référence de Khamanei avant le Liban et sa constitution, je te réponds qu'en attendant ce n'est pas HA qui ne respecte pas le Liban et sa constitution et tu me réponds que cela n'a rien avoir. Donc au moins tu reconnais donc que ce sont la calamité du 14 fevrier qui viole la constitution du Liban alors que HA a donné des mlilliers de martyrs pour libérer le Liban et le défendre face aux agressions israéliennes dont la dernière a été lancée en connivence avec la calamité du 14 fevrier
    Unrelated


    4. Donc selon toi HA est coupable et les LF POURRAIENT l'etre. Je te félicite pour ta clairvoyance. Et c'est quoi cette culpabilité grave que tu prete a SHN? J'ai l'impression de perdre mon temps en répondant à de telles absurdités
    Clarify yourself, are you saying that in the matter of following the guidance/recommendations of a foreign religious figure on a major political decision, Hezbollah have been guilty of doing so while the LF are still to be found guilty of such a behavior?

    Then if you would cite the example of the LF incorporating a system like Wali Al Faqih in their ideology and having faced a situation like that of Hezbollah's 1992, go ahead and do it and I would in advance agree with you that this is wrong behavior, unless you want to play an apologist for the LF in order to justify Hezbollah's own actions.


    5. Tu reviens sur ce que tu as dit au début et tu reconnais donc aux libanais shias le droit d'etre traites a egalite avec les autres. Ce qui prouve que tes questions ne valaient pas plus que celles sur le sexe das anges...
    You're missing the point where you equate a criticism to Hezbollah's ideology as a statement of unequality towards Lebanese Shiites, an expected but not acceptable rhethoric.
     
    nizaryahya

    nizaryahya

    Well-Known Member
    There's quite a difference between the above example and a systematic process preached within Hezbollah and its relationship to Wilayat Al Faqih.
    Here stems the misunderstanding. There is no real difference.
    Wilayat al Faqih is an academic authority.
    The Wali through institutions rules whether a certain behaviour/action is or is not in sink with the philosophy of Islam.
    The international bank rules whether or not it is in sink with the open market.
    The pope rules whether it is in sink with catholic teachings.
    These all are systematic processes within enetities that regard the autorities highlighted above.
    More examples: the human rights NGOs, the Jewish Lobbying groups, the anti-globalization NGOs, the anti-nuclear proliferation organizations, the leftist parties across the world, DELL branches across the world, Intel branches across the world, the United Nations, IBM braches across the world, Nike across the world, Exxon-Mobil across the world, etc...

    There are lots of cross-border organizations with very well defined processes that give authority (more than just guidelines) to non-locals.

    Here comes the middle line of respecting while disagreeing on their line of thinking. If disagreement is equal to rejection/alienation then surely there should be something wrong in the system.
    If you respect their line of thinking and can deal with it (since it is transparent, clear, and predictable) then I salute you.
    Alienation is the worst thing you can do. Engaging "thinking" people and challenging them in a healthy manner will lead them to "think" and provide solutions and compromises.
    The understanding between then and FPM is one proof.
     
    حسن

    حسن

    New Member
    Fadlallah is a reference to Shiites, Khamenei is a reference to a political party.




    Unrelated




    Unrelated




    Clarify yourself, are you saying that in the matter of following the guidance/recommendations of a foreign religious figure on a major political decision, Hezbollah have been guilty of doing so while the LF are still to be found guilty of such a behavior?

    Then if you would cite the example of the LF incorporating a system like Wali Al Faqih in their ideology and having faced a situation like that of Hezbollah's 1992, go ahead and do it and I would in advance agree with you that this is wrong behavior, unless you want to play an apologist for the LF in order to justify Hezbollah's own actions.




    You're missing the point where you equate a criticism to Hezbollah's ideology as a statement of unequality towards Lebanese Shiites, an expected but not acceptable rhethoric.
    1. Fadlallah et Khamenei sont tous les deux avec quelques uns d'autres les référence ou guides pour les chiites, Khamenei étant en plus celui choisi comme Guide de la révolution d'Iran (guide qui n'est pas forcément iranien)

    2. Tout chiite a le droit de choisir son guide

    3. HA est un parti chiite plébiscité par plus de 2/3 des chiites libanais (pour ne pas dire 99%, cad y compris les athées:wink:)

    4. Le pape qui est le guide des catholiques est ussi faillible que Khamenei ou Fadlallah. Les LFs se vantent de suivre le pape même en enfer...

    5. Tu reconnais que ce sont la calamité du 14 fevrier qui viole la constitution du Liban alors que HA a donné des mlilliers de martyrs pour libérer le Liban et le défendre face aux agressions israéliennes dont la dernière a été lancée en connivence avec la calamité du 14 fevrier

    6. Il faut juger HA sur des faits. Cite des faits répréhensibles contre HA. i.e., Les LF, PSP et FM suivent actuellement les décisions de la référence Fieltman. Pour preuve, tous les accords passés avec HA ont été renié à la demande de ce dernier. LF, PSP et FM n'ont fait qu'apauvrir le liban, tuer ses enfants et soutenir l'agression barbare de juillet dernier

    7. tu reconnais aux libanais shias le droit d'etre traites a egalite avec les autres. Et aujourd'hui, la calamité du 14 fevrier constituée de LF, PSP et FM bafoue ce droit et viole la constitution créant une crise sans précédent pouvant conduire à son explosion. Et toi tout ce que tu as à parler c'est la tradition chiite de suivre une référence.

    8. je ne suis pas plus off topic que tu l'es
     
    Mey

    Mey

    Well-Known Member
    Nizar I do hope you bear with me.

    The duty of Waliy Al Faqih is to preserve and look after the good of the Umma, what if the good of the Umma (islamic) does not coincide with the good of the society (which is decided by the society's democratically elected government). What if Waliy Al Faqih sees things differently than my government, Waliy Al Faqih can interfere in this matter and give directions to HA and HA being believers in Wilayat Al Faqih will comply no ?
    The difference is that we have no political party in Lebanon whose ideology says that they should follow the pope or the IBM or whatever.

    Our problem is that HA as a political party in its ideology believes that they have to follow Waliy il Faqih. So in my quote there is a concern that a political party will follow what the head of the Iranian state (Khamen2i) say.

    So again a party whose decision are affected by a figure outside the Lebanese politics, this could lead to a contradiction later on.

    HA policy now is for engaging peacefully in the state, and I have discussed this issue with HA members I know and their strategy for example is that now this is the way to go.

    Concerning for example the Palestinean cause, if Waliy Al Faqih calls for Armed Liberation of Palestine, HA will comply since this is the benefit of the Umma as they see it.

    This issue is what concerns us, and I repeat HA has the right to believe what they want, and so do their members and supporters. That is a given right no one is arguing that, however we have the right to be concerned and discuss this issue since we disagree with it.

    No one is alienating them, we are simply discussing a line of thought which we disagree with, we do acknowledge they have the right to exist and we don't want to eradicate them, and we as FPM moved a step in this regard, but it is my right to wonder about this issue, especially since we have an MoU that stresses on a civil society, how can we have a civil society with a concept of Wilayat Al Faqih ?
     
    AlGhaliboon

    AlGhaliboon

    Active Member
    Salam Mahyar,

    Interesting points you bring up. Nevertheless,

    We are not removing or forcibly liberalizing HA, we wish they would change (those people wishing so are liberal people), others who believe in a conservative religous party (for example you) do not wish that, I don't see the undemocracy of my act.
    No one said you are removing or forcibly liberalizing H.A or that you want to do it, but the issue is why people want to turn religious or conservative parties into liberal ones; if you are saying the people will choose the liberal alternative, why not start such an alternative rather than seek to homogenize?

    As for deep inside issue, that is totally not true. It depends, in some societies liberal parties win, in other societies conservative parties win, it is the choice of the people. I would never defend the action of the army, I find that you are somehow alluding that I would resort to any means to prevent a conservative party. NO only democractic means.
    Well the thing is, that's exactly what they said in Algeria too. But when they saw the Front Islamique du Salut won the local and 1st round of parliamentary elections, the army intervened and stopped the 2nd round from taking place and imposed an authoritarian regime. I think it's easy to talk but who is willing to walk the talk?

    Services are a major catalyst for support, you admitted it yourself by saying who worked for the Shiite community more than HA. So basically after a time, if the services cease, yes the support (other than those who ideologically follow and believe) will dwindle.
    Not true; the services will not cease, and there will always be needy people; however this is not the important issue, the important issue is that you are assuming people will be living in a perfect state and have all their needs satisfied, and that the rule will be perfect so people will not have any complaints or that they would be perfectly in tune with the ideologies and policies of the governing people, but this is not the case. It's not solely about economic issues, it goes beyond that. For example why didn't the Algerians support another (non-religious) party (there were many) and chose to support the Front Islamique du Salut? It doesn't have to do solely with socio-economic concerns.

    I agree, you can review my posts about this issue earlier, there was corruption from the state, neglect, and that helped in the growth of HA, I do not disagree. However what HA did is that it did not directly help the state and the government but HA created its own services, fine, they can do that within the legal procedures, but had HA wanted the state to do it, they would have helped the state, let them donate that money to the state on condition it be used for 1 and 2 and 3.
    Um no sorry , it doesn't work that way. the state has a terrible record in its treatment of our people, and it continues to this day, we are not about to hand it loads of money and wait for them to give us the services. In fact they do have money but the problem is they don't want to offer those services, and we're not going to rely on their goodwill, it's their responsibility but they are failing to perform their duties, give me one good reason that we should donate the money??? And H.A has constantly demanded that the government would start assuming its responsibilities, in this regard our actions speak louder than words, we are transparent, whereas the same cannot be said for the rest. We can help only those who want to help the people.

    HA MPs have been in Bekaa for more than I can remember, yet still I have not see any plans (mashroo3) to rennovate Baalbeck (my home town), this is just an example.
    I am sorry but what exactly are you talking about? Baalbek is far better than some areas in the Bekaa and the south, and yes there have been a number of projects done by Jihad al Bina2. We are but one party, what is next, we are expected to renovate dilapidated houses in Tripoli too? Sorry but renovation and development projects are the responsibility of the state, and if we are assuming these responsibilities it does not mean people should jump in and demand that we do more. We are doing the best we can given our limited capabilities and outreach. What is the state doing?

    Well Madares Al Mahdi and Al Mustafa do teach regular classes yes, but the ideology taught at this schools IMO helps to raise the children VERY PRO HA. I have relatives in those schools, they repeat HA slogans in class that are recited to them by their teachers. This is IMO not right because we are raising the children to a certain stance from the beginning and that could not help on the long run (of course my opinion because you might agree with this)
    Well again, you send your kids to private school you abide by the rules of the private school, you don't want to abide by these rules, and at the same time can't pay for private schooling, you are more than welcome to send your kids to public school. And you are more than welcome to lobby for the development of public schooling system, no one is stopping you.

    No you see, I lived in Dahyeh in the past and I worked in 2005 elections for FPM and I have been from those who were anti-FPM and I have been secular since Childhood. However I was anti-FPM although ideologically I discovered I am 100 % FPM (I did not know it), the problem is the image I had of FPM, I thoguht FPM was a sectarian movement, I thought Aoun was an Israeli agent, you see that was what I was taught in my childhood, so basically FPM's ideology as I saw it back then was different than my ideology (secular), but when I discovered the truth, I supported FPM.
    Well my friend, I know very well what FPM is and what it stands for, and most of the Shi'ites I know do too. In fact my parents are pro-FPM and adore General Aoun, but I personally , however much I like General Aoun and FPM, am not a member and will not become one any time soon, I can assure you. So what are you saying?? Most of the Shi3a are not anti-FPM, and if anyone had any doubt about FPM and the Israeli issue, it was gone when the MoU came to light... but I think you are mistaking general support (as in, I like Aoun a lot) and particular support (as in, I am a member of FPM), and you are overrating the extent of the 2nd in the SHi'ite community at the moment, and in the future as well.

    Part of it is about needs/services, if you neglect that, it means you are neglecting a major constituent of why people choose to follow parties, and no HA is not different. Every party springs from the people, FPM sprung from the people also. Yes we all endorsed HA because they fought the Israelis, we earlier also endorsed SSNP for their resistance, and the Commies too, you see the common value ? Resistance.
    i am sorry but i don't get what you are trying to say? why would FPM be a better choice for the Shi3a? how is FPM any better than H.A? If we remove services on the part of all parties, why would the Shi3a support FPM and not H.A?

    Are you going to convince me that if HA did not resist but only called for an Islamic state, they would have enjoyed the same support now ? No and you can quote me on that one.
    Well my friend you are looking at it the wrong way, the people wanted to resist and this gave rise to Hezbullah, not the other way around, and Hezbullah liberated the land, and continues to provide defense, services, and to in general show that it cares about its constituents and not just its constituents but also Lebanon and the Lebanese people. Canyou tell me who those martyrs died for? for the Shi'ite sect?? for Hezbullah???! for what?

    This is exactly the suffering I am talking about. Compare the situation in Gaza to the situation in South Lebanon, with support from Iran and Syria HA was able to get LONG range missiles not pity Qassams, and come on, it makes a difference. YOu can get guns and ammunition from the black market, but not Zelzal :smile:
    and you think the Palestinian people will shun Hamas because of what USA and the whole world is doing to them? if USA is betting on that, it should place its bets elsewhere. my friend these people have no clue about dignity because they have none. nor do arab leaders, because they have sold their souls and their people's fate to USA. so you think they understand the people's mentality and can predict their reactions? actually we did not fire zelzals in the July war, and zelzals are not too practical in that regard, they are strategic, and a few hundred would be enough for deterrence. they are not easily deployable, so they are not practical. as for the rest, i already said, if the Palestinians in their limited abilities and under occupation can manufacture Qassams (pitiful they may be, but they have been very effective), we can manufacture much more than Qassams,if need be. i think you underestimate our abilities and overestimate our alleged reliance on Syria and Iran.

    Yes now with the organizations, the donations, I have no doubt that HA has money, however you cannot neglect that HA receives sums from Iran on a regular basis, whether this sum qualifies as Khomos or whatever, it is there for HA to use as they see fit. And as you said as long as Iran is willing to lend a hand, HA are more comfortable so yes, Iran does help them in this sense.
    well my friend, how are they going to stop the flow of money? it's not like the money is being brought in in bags and boxes from Iran through Syria... we have a lot of money sitting in the U.S, let the U.S find that money if they are smart??? :biggrin: So I don't see what you're trying to say, and anyway most parties in Lebanon to one extent or another have external financial backing, you think Hariri is paying from his pocket for all the costs of FM? ok we all know he's using the people's money to buy off people but still, did you check how much money KSA sends??? i don't see anyone talking about that.

    It is only natural that a member in any party agrees on the ideology, supporters might or might not. HA has thousands of members but millions of supporters, and here the HUGE SUPPORT for HA plays its role, not all those supporters are ideologically convinced.
    has anyone measured the religiosity of these millions of supporters? at least the Shi'ite ones?!

    You see you seem to be misunderstanding my point and you do not see where I am going with my post. The comparison holds perfectly, I am talking about support not membership. Do you know that Haifa supports HA ? That Julia Botros supports HA ? DO they believe in ideology ? Why is it so hard for you to understand my point ?
    well i don't think haifa and Julia Botros are good examples or representative by any means.

    I am talking about Shiite support for HA, you tell me for the example to hold, I should compare the Communist support to Communism !

    This is a huge mistake, you are claiming that Shiite to HA is the same as Communist to The Communist Party, and this is definitly false. Some Shiites do not believe in the principles of HA, nor do they feel themselves related to the idea of an Islamic state, while communists believe in Communism (the principles of Communist Party)
    no, the comparison still does not hold.

    you said: many communists support H.A ==> these people do not believe in H.A's ideology (fine, i guess we agree on that one)

    MOST communists also do not support the LCP, does that mean they do not believe in communism?

    So, how are you trying to prove that the "many" Shi'ites who support H.A do not do so based on their belief in H.A's ideology??

    Yes but it is a MAJOR part of the ideology, I am not talking about fighting corruption and so on, I am talking about the system of state, the way of governing, the Islamic state and the principle of Wilayat Al-Faqih, and these are things A HUGE number of HA SUPPORTERS (not members) do not agree on.
    what is your figure of "huge number" based on? also we were talking about Shi'ite support for H.A, not communist support for H.A. where do you get your figures on religiosity and subscription to the idea of the Wilayat al-Faqih from?

    are you telling me you know more about the Shi'ite community than I do?
     
    AlGhaliboon

    AlGhaliboon

    Active Member
    Abufijli, (wen mikhtfeh kint)

    The decision whether to participate in the 1992 elections was forwarded by HA to Iran (Ayatollah Khamenei), and only after his approval, HA decided to run. Do you believe that this has changed? and what are the "important" issues that HA would require the approval of Khamenei for?

    Regards,
    the example of the election is not a really good one because first of all the request for arbitration was made by H.A, not the other way around (so it cannot be considered as Iran exerting influence or intervening), it was actually because of the internal indecision on this issue that H.A asked for Ayatollah Khamanei's decision, and in fact it was only a blessing not a decision per se.. the same can be said for other political issues, the Faqih does not intervene unless he receives a request.
     
    Abufijli

    Abufijli

    Well-Known Member
    Abufijli, (wen mikhtfeh kint)

    The decision whether to participate in the 1992 elections was forwarded by HA to Iran (Ayatollah Khamenei), and only after his approval, HA decided to run. Do you believe that this has changed? and what are the "important" issues that HA would require the approval of Khamenei for?

    Regards,
    Ive been sleeping :wink:

    I am unaware of this, although they may have asked for religious guideance with regards to the elections, meaning how will it be viewed in a religious context if they participate, let us look at it this way: how has their participation affected Lebanese politics? for better or worse?
     
    Abufijli

    Abufijli

    Well-Known Member
    Dry Ice, Mahyar, hope you're both well.

    For Shia muslims it is compulsory to use a marji3, who you can go back to when you are unsure of a religious ruling. We have fadllalah in lebanon who is a marji3, you also have Khamenei in Iran and others. People are free to choose who they will follow in religious matters.

    So if the ruling had come back that no you can not enter the elections, HA would have not entered into politics as they are a religious party who will not go against religion.

    That is different to taking orders from somebody. Islam does not diffrentiate between religion and politics, Prophet Muhamad(pbuh) was both a religiopus man ans a statesman.
     
    Mey

    Mey

    Well-Known Member
    I am unaware of this, although they may have asked for religious guideance with regards to the elections, meaning how will it be viewed in a religious context if they participate, let us look at it this way: how has their participation affected Lebanese politics? for better or worse?
    AbuFijli, in this case, it was for good, but HYPOTHETICALLY speaking what if the recommendation from Al Waliy Al Faqih was not to participate in the elections, then HA (a political party) in Lebanon would always be outside the Government/Parlaiment thus constitutionally they have no representation, how were they planning to voice their concerns and apply their program ?

    Forget the hypothetically, the problem is it is not always the case that the directions of Al Waliy Al Faqih would affect the Lebanese politics positively, I gave an example earlier, in case Al Waliy Al Faqih decided to encourage the armed liberation of Palestine, then you would expect HA to follow that policy and continue to the liberation of Palestine DESPITE the fact that the Lebanese government COULD BE in a state of peace with Israel (for example).

    You see this is my concern with Wilayat Al Faqih, and going back to your second quote

    For Shia muslims it is compulsory to use a marji3, who you can go back to when you are unsure of a religious ruling. We have fadllalah in lebanon who is a marji3, you also have Khamenei in Iran and others. People are free to choose who they will follow in religious matters.
    Definitly in religious matters you as an individual are free to follow whatever marja3, I am aware of this concept in Shiite doctrine, but it is good to mention it to the readers of this thread.

    So if the ruling had come back that no you can not enter the elections, HA would have not entered into politics as they are a religious party who will not go against religion.
    Here is the problem AbuFijli, as a POLITICAL party in Lebanon (not an individual), and yes I know it is religious, it is a concern to me that a party will follow the guidlines of Khamen2i when it comes to Lebanese politics, this is IMHO interference from Iran (because there is a clash of interest), the interest of the Umma protected by Waliy Al Faqih is not always the same as the interest of Lebanon as a nation or entity, you see this is where my disagreement with the concept comes. I am concerned when HA a party who has arms and so on, can be guided by the principles of Waliy Al Faqih to go into issues or decisions that could even surpass the rules and restrictions set by the Lebanese state which we as Lebanese should be bound to because by constitution it has the final say in how things should go in the country.

    That is different to taking orders from somebody. Islam does not diffrentiate between religion and politics, Prophet Muhamad(pbuh) was both a religiopus man ans a statesman.
    I am aware of this although AbuFijli, if you follow the Shiite history well, you would notice that Shiites in many times seperated Religion from the state they live in, and we have more than one school of thought in the Shiite community, from the states in Iraq to the states in Iran and the relationship and the interaction between Religion and State varied between those schools of thought. Again some believe in Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma (Khamen2i style thus HA) which says that Al Waliy Al Faqih is in total control of the state and the society, while other schools of thoughts believe in Wilayat Al Faqih al Nisbiya which says that Waliy Al Faqih handles only society issues and leaves the rest the state by itself.

    I have to stress also that although in the Shiite doctrine the marja3 is compulsory, not all maraje3 believe in Wilayat Al Faqih which AbuFijli is not exactly the same as a marja3. If you follow a certain marja3, then it does not mean that this marja3 is your Waliy AL Faqih, it depends whether this marja3 believes in the concept of Waliy Al Faqih or not. And not all Shiite maraje3 believe in it, so it is not necessarly the same.

    The important statement I want to make is that criticizing Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma as a concept is not criticizing the Shiite doctrine, it is rather criticizing a school of thought in that doctrine because Wilayat Al Faqih is not agreed upon by all Shiites.
     
    Abufijli

    Abufijli

    Well-Known Member
    AbuFijli, in this case, it was for good, but HYPOTHETICALLY speaking what if the recommendation from Al Waliy Al Faqih was not to participate in the elections, then HA (a political party) in Lebanon would always be outside the Government/Parlaiment thus constitutionally they have no representation, how were they planning to voice their concerns and apply their program ?

    Forget the hypothetically, the problem is it is not always the case that the directions of Al Waliy Al Faqih would affect the Lebanese politics positively, I gave an example earlier, in case Al Waliy Al Faqih decided to encourage the armed liberation of Palestine, then you would expect HA to follow that policy and continue to the liberation of Palestine DESPITE the fact that the Lebanese government COULD BE in a state of peace with Israel (for example).

    You see this is my concern with Wilayat Al Faqih, and going back to your second quote



    Definitly in religious matters you as an individual are free to follow whatever marja3, I am aware of this concept in Shiite doctrine, but it is good to mention it to the readers of this thread.



    Here is the problem AbuFijli, as a POLITICAL party in Lebanon (not an individual), and yes I know it is religious, it is a concern to me that a party will follow the guidlines of Khamen2i when it comes to Lebanese politics, this is IMHO interference from Iran (because there is a clash of interest), the interest of the Umma protected by Waliy Al Faqih is not always the same as the interest of Lebanon as a nation or entity, you see this is where my disagreement with the concept comes. I am concerned when HA a party who has arms and so on, can be guided by the principles of Waliy Al Faqih to go into issues or decisions that could even surpass the rules and restrictions set by the Lebanese state which we as Lebanese should be bound to because by constitution it has the final say in how things should go in the country.



    I am aware of this although AbuFijli, if you follow the Shiite history well, you would notice that Shiites in many times seperated Religion from the state they live in, and we have more than one school of thought in the Shiite community, from the states in Iraq to the states in Iran and the relationship and the interaction between Religion and State varied between those schools of thought. Again some believe in Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma (Khamen2i style thus HA) which says that Al Waliy Al Faqih is in total control of the state and the society, while other schools of thoughts believe in Wilayat Al Faqih al Nisbiya which says that Waliy Al Faqih handles only society issues and leaves the rest the state by itself.

    I have to stress also that although in the Shiite doctrine the marja3 is compulsory, not all maraje3 believe in Wilayat Al Faqih which AbuFijli is not exactly the same as a marja3. If you follow a certain marja3, then it does not mean that this marja3 is your Waliy AL Faqih, it depends whether this marja3 believes in the concept of Waliy Al Faqih or not. And not all Shiite maraje3 believe in it, so it is not necessarly the same.

    The important statement I want to make is that criticizing Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma as a concept is not criticizing the Shiite doctrine, it is rather criticizing a school of thought in that doctrine because Wilayat Al Faqih is not agreed upon by all Shiites.
    I understand your concern, I would also be concerned if HA was put in a situation where it had to choose between Lebanon and foreign interests, i would certainly hope they put lebanon's interests first, and i do have great faith in them that they always will. The reason I trust them is that they have given me no reason to doubt them. HA will not jepordise the strong support they have in all communities in Lebanon.

    I personally don't like the idea of Wilayat El Faqih, while I do have faith in our maraji3, I dont think that they should be put in a position where they are the sole person responsibile for all our actions, they are fallible humans.
     
    AlGhaliboon

    AlGhaliboon

    Active Member
    Forget the hypothetically, the problem is it is not always the case that the directions of Al Waliy Al Faqih would affect the Lebanese politics positively, I gave an example earlier, in case Al Waliy Al Faqih decided to encourage the armed liberation of Palestine, then you would expect HA to follow that policy and continue to the liberation of Palestine DESPITE the fact that the Lebanese government COULD BE in a state of peace with Israel (for example).
    well again, you are divering the core issue, the issue is that the wali el faqih does not issue specific policies and guidelines for internal political issues unless his arbitration is requested, so I don't see how that would actually qualify as Iranian interference/intervention? If I ask you to help me with something, and you do, would that be considered interference?!?! maybe i don't know the real meaning of the word interference? :confused:

    the problem is that those who have internalized the western lifestyle based on centuries of indoctrination and interference on the part of the Pope and the religious establishment in general, take issue not to political aspects of the marja3 taqlid but also the social aspects , and i've heard this argument often, that Lebanon has certain values and standards and that we are importing values and lifestyles from Iran, etc. what is next, they are going to say the Hijab is not a Lebanese thing? where does one draw the line?!

    The wilayat al faqih is such that it recognizes and accepts context, meaning that since Iran is the only state this is practiced in, it is not feasible for the wali el faqih to actually have any direct political say in other countries with differing circumstances, like Lebanon.

    The important statement I want to make is that criticizing Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma as a concept is not criticizing the Shiite doctrine, it is rather criticizing a school of thought in that doctrine because Wilayat Al Faqih is not agreed upon by all Shiites.
    well the problem is that those who talk about this issue don't even know what the wilayat al faqih is all about, they just want to have a go at the "Iranian relation", and the only way they can do this (because they have no proof that we take orders from Iran, which we do NOT) is by criticizing the concept of wilayat al faqih, and they also turn this into attack on the Shi3a in general.
     
    Mey

    Mey

    Well-Known Member
    well again, you are divering the core issue, the issue is that the wali el faqih does not issue specific policies and guidelines for internal political issues unless his arbitration is requested, so I don't see how that would actually qualify as Iranian interference/intervention? If I ask you to help me with something, and you do, would that be considered interference?!?! maybe i don't know the real meaning of the word interference?
    Al-Ghaliboon, armed liberation of Palestine is not a specific policy or guideline. Al Waliy Al Faqih can issue such a recommendation !!! Suppose the Lebanese state is in a case of truce with Israel, if HA follows the directions of Waliy Al Faqih is not that in violation of the Lebanese state's sovereignity ?

    Its not about asking to help, it is about Waliy AL Faqih issuing something and those who believe in Wilayat AL Faqih complying (HA are not going in this case to ask if they should liberate Palestine). How is that not interference from Waliy Al Faqih (Khamen2i), in the affairs of Lebanon (by encouraging a group of Lebanese) to engage in liberation of Palestine, in contradiction of the Lebanese state's policy.

    the problem is that those who have internalized the western lifestyle based on centuries of indoctrination and interference on the part of the Pope and the religious establishment in general, take issue not to political aspects of the marja3 taqlid but also the social aspects , and i've heard this argument often, that Lebanon has certain values and standards and that we are importing values and lifestyles from Iran, etc. what is next, they are going to say the Hijab is not a Lebanese thing? where does one draw the line?!
    No that argument of social issues is obsolete and unfounded and whoever goes there is presenting a weak argument, I did not talk about social issues and that is why in my posts I clearly differentiated between Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma and Wilayat Al Faqih Al Nisbiya, because the Nisbiya talks about the social issues only while Al 3amma considers Al Waliy Al Faqih responsible politically and socially. Of course one is affected socially by their religion and no one is allowed to interfere with that.

    The line is easily drawn, Hijab is a personal matter decided by the woman, if she wishes to wear it she is free, and it is a violation of human rights and freedom of religion in case it is banned. Values and Lifestyles can be imported via TV, via internet, communication is easily spread due to globalisation but I am speaking specifically about political influence and interference and I explained it and specified it in that matter, please do not put words in my mouth in this issue :smile:

    The wilayat al faqih is such that it recognizes and accepts context, meaning that since Iran is the only state this is practiced in, it is not feasible for the wali el faqih to actually have any direct political say in other countries with differing circumstances, like Lebanon.
    That is not a true statement when it comes to Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma:

    اما الولاية فهي "مطلقة وعامة"، وهي تشمل كل صلاحيات النبي والأئمة المعصومين من دون نقصان أو استثناء، يقول الامام الخميني: "فتوهم ان صلاحيات النبي في الحكم كانت اكثر من صلاحيات امير المؤمنين وصلاحيات أمير المؤمنين اكثر من صلاحيات الفقيه هو توهم خاطىء وباطل. نعم ان فضائل الرسول بالطبع هي أكثر من فضائل جميع البشر، لكن كثرة الفضائل المعنوية لا تزيد في صلاحيات الحكم. فالصلاحيات نفسها التي كانت للرسول والأئمة في تعبئة الجيوش وتعيين الولاة والمحافظين، واستلام الضرائب وصرفها في مصالح المسلمين، قد أعطاها الله تعالى للحكومة المفترضة هذه الأيام. غاية الأمر لم يعين شخصاً بالخصوص وانما أعطاه لعنوان العالم العادل". (الخميني، الحكومة الاسلامية) أي الولي الفقيه.
    This speaks of the absolute control that Al Waliy Al Faqih controls what Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) has.

    Then in his book (حزب الله، المنهج، التجربة المستقبل), Naim Qassem speaks in pages 69, 70

    "... يحتاج المسلم المكلف في القسم الاول (أي قسم العبادات والمعاملات) الى مرجع تقليد لمعرفة الاحكام الشرعية وضوابطها، وفي القسم الثاني (القسم العام المرتبط بالامة ومصالحها وحربها وسلمها وتوجهاتها العامة) الى قائد هو الولي الفقيه لتحديد السياسات العامة في حياة الأمة ودور المكلفين العملي في تنفيذ احكام الشرع المقدس والسهر على تطبيقها في حياة الأمة. وقد تجتمع المرجعية والولاية في شخص واحد (...) كما حصل بالنسبة للامام الخميني مع انتصار الثورة، وللامام الخامنئي بعد اختياره للولاية" (ص 69-70).
    Notice wa 7arbiha w silmiha.

    The he continues on the control of Waliy Al Faqih outside the country regardless of the political system in other countries as you are claiming here

    "لا علاقة لموطن الولي الفقيه بسلطته كما لا علاقة لموطن المرجع بمرجعيته. فقد يكون عراقياً او ايرانياً او لبنانياً او كويتياً او غير ذلك (...) فالامام الخميني كولي على المسلمين، كان يدير الدولة الاسلامية في ايران كمرشد وقائد وموجه ومشرف على النظام الاسلامي هناك، وكان يحدد التكليف السياسي لعامة المسلمين في البلدان المختلفة
    So he controls the System in the country of the state and he defines al Talkleef Al Siyassi for the Muslims in other countries. (Siyassi is political, so he has a political say.

    This is all because HA belives in Wilayat Al Faqih Al Motlaqa (al 3amma), had it been like I said above (Nisbiya) then it would have been social only not political.

    As you can see its not a matter of request and advice, it is much more than that.

    well the problem is that those who talk about this issue don't even know what the wilayat al faqih is all about, they just want to have a go at the "Iranian relation", and the only way they can do this (because they have no proof that we take orders from Iran, which we do NOT) is by criticizing the concept of wilayat al faqih, and they also turn this into attack on the Shi3a in general.
    Anyone turning it to an attack on Shi3a in general is a sectarian hater and needs not be dignified with a reply. But as I stress again all this criticism from my part is a criticism to the concept of Wilayat Al Faqih Al Motlaqa which interferes politically (even though does not specify details) in the general guidelines of the Muslims who follow that school of thought in other countries.

    Those who attack Shii3a in general are clueless because as I said this is not a common practice of the Shiite doctrine but rather one school of thought that is advocated by Khomeini and the current Shiites of Iran, but that is refused by other Shiite scholars and religious men and maraje3.

    The Shiite doctrine is not about Wilayat Al Faqih, Wilayat AL Faqih is one school of thought.

    I understand your concern, I would also be concerned if HA was put in a situation where it had to choose between Lebanon and foreign interests, i would certainly hope they put lebanon's interests first, and i do have great faith in them that they always will. The reason I trust them is that they have given me no reason to doubt them. HA will not jepordise the strong support they have in all communities in Lebanon.
    The only problem I see is because HA follows Wilayat AL Faqih Al 3amma, had they followed Wilayat AL Faqih Al Nisbiya or any other school of thought that does not acknowledge Wilayat AL Faqih then I would not worry at all, but since this is what they believe in, I respect their belief but I cannot agree with it at all because I see a contradiction between their thought and my view of a state restricted by its boundaries only.


    I personally don't like the idea of Wilayat El Faqih, while I do have faith in our maraji3, I dont think that they should be put in a position where they are the sole person responsibile for all our actions, they are fallible humans.
    I second that :smile:


    P.S. Alghaliboon I will reply to the representation post later :smile:
     
    Dry Ice

    Dry Ice

    Legendary Member
    Here is the problem AbuFijli, as a POLITICAL party in Lebanon (not an individual), and yes I know it is religious, it is a concern to me that a party will follow the guidlines of Khamen2i when it comes to Lebanese politics, this is IMHO interference from Iran (because there is a clash of interest), the interest of the Umma protected by Waliy Al Faqih is not always the same as the interest of Lebanon as a nation or entity, you see this is where my disagreement with the concept comes. I am concerned when HA a party who has arms and so on, can be guided by the principles of Waliy Al Faqih to go into issues or decisions that could even surpass the rules and restrictions set by the Lebanese state which we as Lebanese should be bound to because by constitution it has the final say in how things should go in the country.
    We're on the same line of thought, thanks for the clarity...
     
    AlGhaliboon

    AlGhaliboon

    Active Member
    Al-Ghaliboon, armed liberation of Palestine is not a specific policy or guideline. Al Waliy Al Faqih can issue such a recommendation !!! Suppose the Lebanese state is in a case of truce with Israel, if HA follows the directions of Waliy Al Faqih is not that in violation of the Lebanese state's sovereignity ?
    well truce is not the same as peace, and the issue of what israel is considered friend or enemy has to do with a general concept not a particular circumstance or a particular order that must be carried out, again as i said there are no particular orders that interfere with the political sovereignty and context of each state...
    Its not about asking to help, it is about Waliy AL Faqih issuing something and those who believe in Wilayat AL Faqih complying (HA are not going in this case to ask if they should liberate Palestine). How is that not interference from Waliy Al Faqih (Khamen2i), in the affairs of Lebanon (by encouraging a group of Lebanese) to engage in liberation of Palestine, in contradiction of the Lebanese state's policy.
    do you actually have a real example of this happening?

    No that argument of social issues is obsolete and unfounded and whoever goes there is presenting a weak argument, I did not talk about social issues and that is why in my posts I clearly differentiated between Wilayat Al Faqih Al 3amma and Wilayat Al Faqih Al Nisbiya, because the Nisbiya talks about the social issues only while Al 3amma considers Al Waliy Al Faqih responsible politically and socially. Of course one is affected socially by their religion and no one is allowed to interfere with that.
    so what you are saying is that the social and political realms are entirely separate and have got nothing to do with each other? why do parties have social platforms then? for what reason do people actually vote for parties?

    The line is easily drawn, Hijab is a personal matter decided by the woman, if she wishes to wear it she is free, and it is a violation of human rights and freedom of religion in case it is banned. Values and Lifestyles can be imported via TV, via internet, communication is easily spread due to globalisation but I am speaking specifically about political influence and interference and I explained it and specified it in that matter, please do not put words in my mouth in this issue :smile:
    you still did not answer my question, how does it qualify as interference?

    you are quoting Sheikh Naim Qassem, so I will quote him too on this issue, in a more specific quote:
    Discrepancies among peoples' living circumstances are not a source of concern, for the limits set by the Jurist-Theologian take two issues into consideration: first, undisputable implementation of the doctrinal Shari'a principles, and second: the objective and specific conditions of every group or country which falls within and affects the circle of responsibility and concern.
    ..
    Such authority is reflected as substantial independence at the practical level, not necessitating direct and daily supervision by the Jurist-Theologian. Where Party leadership is confronted with essential issues or overtures that might affect any of the working principles or requiring knowledge or legislative jurisprudence, the Party would then take the initiative of inquiry or requesting clerical permission that should provide the legal Shari'a grounds for executing or ceasing a certain action.
    p. 55-58, Hizbullah: The Story from Within
    :smile:

    P.S. Alghaliboon I will reply to the representation post later :smile:
    Take your time. :biggrin:
     
    M

    maroon1

    Active Member
    what's wrong with a religious party? (nothing)
    "noting in" your opinion

    For me it is a big problem because religious parties follow their beliefs without reasoning. Religious parties think that they are following what god's want without reasoning.

    A religious parties thinks that any victory in war is called a divine victory.
    Religious parties think that god helps them in wars.
     
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