Hariri Family Legacy vs. Aounists' Accusations

Rafic Hariri

  • Death liberate Lebanon from Syria

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • He rebuilt Lebanon

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Was corrupted

    Votes: 17 73.9%
  • Was not corrupted

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • Was sectarian

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • Was not sectarian

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • His economic policy is better than the Aounists

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon in his days was much better than today

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon today is better

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Aoun economic policy was better

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Harriri is more important than Aoun as an historical leader

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Aoun is more important than Harriri as an historical leader

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • The crash today is Harriri legacy

    Votes: 14 60.9%
  • The crash today is Aoun Legacy

    Votes: 2 8.7%

  • Total voters
    23
mariob2

mariob2

Member
اجبرنا بهالعيد
ما بتسال حالك ليه ما منسكر على ذكرى اغتيال بشير جميل مثلا؟

وهوي رئيس جمهورية كان
اطلعولنا منهن هالحركات
وخلصنا بقي من ١٤ اذار ذكري استشهاد رفيق الحريري
الله يرحمو
now let s move on
What about the martyr Rene Mouawad as well? Or Gebran Tueini? Samir Kassir? Georges Hawi?

The hypocrisy we have is terrible. Venerating with one eye Rafi2 as a martyr but disregarding the others.
 
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  • mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    I am talking about the builders' intentions; not the interpretation of naive Western tourists, who have zero knowledge on how and why the mosque was built.
    He built the mosque in front of the church on the biggest public square he could find as a huge middle finger. Whether it was the other way around (a Church built in front if a Mosque) or not, whay counts was as you said the intentions of the builder.

    Multiculturalism was already there. We need only look at the other mosque near al Nahar. Why build another huge one on the public square that had countless shops and "sou2 cha3be"? Heck, even the fountain in front of Martyr's square was not built.

    The vision Hariri had of Beirut was not the one a Lebanese statesman had. He had other notions, other plans, another Beirut in mind.

    Nobody had the last laugh but the St. Georges Hotel owner, where the scene of the assassination happened in front of him. But even then Hariri will forever remain a stain and huge middle finger to St. Georges, with his statue built in front of the hotel.

    L.o.L
     
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I am talking about the builders' intentions; not the interpretation of naive Western tourists, who have zero knowledge on how and why the mosque was built.
    Downtown Beirut is not Christian to begin with. And your church is a Modern building. Deal with it.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    What about the martyr Rene Mouawad as well? Or Gebran Tueini? Samir Kassir? Georges Hawi?

    The hypocrisy we have is terrible. Venerating with one eye Rafi2 as a martyr but disregarding the others.
    exactly
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    اجبرنا بهالعيد
    ما بتسال حالك ليه ما منسكر على ذكرى اغتيال بشير جميل مثلا؟

    وهوي رئيس جمهورية كان
    اطلعولنا منهن هالحركات
    وخلصنا بقي من ١٤ اذار ذكري استشهاد رفيق الحريري
    الله يرحمو
    now let s move on
    I guess it has to with the fact that Bachir was a murderer. Something that can't be said about Hariri who was loved by all Lebanese communities.

    A murderer doesn't become a martyr because he was assassinated.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    I guess it has to with the fact that Bachir was a murderer. Something that can't be said about Hariri who was loved by all Lebanese communities.

    A murderer doesn't become a martyr because he was assassinated.
    and who said that hariri was loved by all the lebanese communities?
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I guess it has to with the fact that Bachir was a murderer. Something that can't be said about Hariri who was loved by all Lebanese communities.

    A murderer doesn't become a martyr because he was assassinated.
    Business owners in DT killed by Rafiq Hariri in strokes and heart attacks after discovering how robbed and skinned they were when he took over their premises, outnumbers those killed by Bashir at wars. Makes Hariri a national theif AND a murderer.
     
    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    and who said that hariri was loved by all the lebanese communities?
    Rafik Hariri Airport
    Rafik Hariri University
    Rafik Hariri Hospital
    Hariri foundation
    The reconstruction of Beirut
    Excellent foreign relations
    [......]
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Rafik Hariri Airport
    Rafik Hariri University
    Rafik Hariri Hospital
    Hariri foundation
    The reconstruction of Beirut
    Excellent foreign relations

    [......]
    The master thief never gave a free lunch. It was your money he played you shallik with.

    Rafik Hariri Airport: A mouthwatering project for every construction shark with a voracious belly and plans to rob the state clean. The insight it is named after a national thief turns the stomach. Bring back Beirut International Airport so we may not be reminded of his thieving every time we land and take off.

    Rafik Hariri University: Many dirty businessmen's wet dream is to have an academic enema.

    Rafik Hariri Hospital: Formerly known as Beirut Governmental University Hospital (BGUH). Lebanese government decided to build it in 1979. Due to the war the decision was postponed. National shark Hariri pops up after the war and hijacks the project, for obvious $rea$on$, Here's the result.

    Hariri foundation: Throwing back the crumbs of what he was stealing was his malicious way to grow his sheep flock. Funding the education of 30.000 young people ties up to his benevolence ten times their count (papa, mama, brothers, sisters, cousins, 3ashira..)

    Excellent foreign relations: Like who? The kings and princes of al mamlaka al jahilia? Or the equally corrupt Jackes Chirac?

    [.....]
     
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    AtheistForYeezus

    AtheistForYeezus

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The master thief never gave a free lunch. It was your money he played you shallik with.

    Rafik Hariri Airport: A mouthwatering project for every construction shark with a voracious belly and plans to rob the state clean. The insight it is named after a national thief turns the stomach. Bring back Beirut International Airport so we may not be reminded of his thieving every time we land and take off.

    Rafik Hariri University: Many dirty businessmen's wet dream is to have an academic enema.

    Rafik Hariri Hospital: Formerly known as Beirut Governmental University Hospital (BGUH). Lebanese government decided to build it in 1979. Due to the war the decision was postponed. National shark Hariri pops up after the war and hijacks the project, for obvious $rea$on$, Here's the result.

    Hariri foundation: Throwing back the crumbs of what he was stealing was his malicious way to grow his sheep flock. Funding the education of 30.000 young people ties up to his benevolence ten times their count (papa, mama, brothers, sisters, cousins, 3ashira..)

    Excellent foreign relations: Like who? The kings and princes of al mamlaka al jahilia? Or the equally corrupt Jackes Chirac?

    [.....]
    That's mere hearsay. Do you have the evidence to prove it?

    Lebanon's debt peaked in 2006, due to Nasrallah's July blunder.
    Did any of you Aounists dare blame Hizbullah for our financial woes?

    Also, Hariri was killed in 2005. That's 15 years ago. Do you think it's acceptable for Aounists to continue to blame their ineffectiveness on political Harirism?
     
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    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    -
    What do you mean downtown Beirut is not christian to begin with?
    Beirut is for everyone and alot of sects from all the country live there.
    Right. It's for all sects. Not Christian to begin with.
     
    Dark Angel

    Dark Angel

    Legendary Member
    The master thief never gave a free lunch. It was your money he played you shallik with.

    Rafik Hariri Airport: A mouthwatering project for every construction shark with a voracious belly and plans to rob the state clean. The insight it is named after a national thief turns the stomach. Bring back Beirut International Airport so we may not be reminded of his thieving every time we land and take off.

    Rafik Hariri University: Many dirty businessmen's wet dream is to have an academic enema.

    Rafik Hariri Hospital: Formerly known as Beirut Governmental University Hospital (BGUH). Lebanese government decided to build it in 1979. Due to the war the decision was postponed. National shark Hariri pops up after the war and hijacks the project, for obvious $rea$on$, Here's the result.

    Hariri foundation: Throwing back the crumbs of what he was stealing was his malicious way to grow his sheep flock. Funding the education of 30.000 young people ties up to his benevolence ten times their count (papa, mama, brothers, sisters, cousins, 3ashira..)

    Excellent foreign relations: Like who? The kings and princes of al mamlaka al jahilia? Or the equally corrupt Jackes Chirac?

    The only legacy I attribute to Bashir is his attempt at rectifying the biggest mistake of his father, among other 7ameer: Cairo agreement.
    about 10 years ago i had a discussion with a lady who was praising rafiq hariri for paying part of her son's tuition. she was scolding FPM and GMA for standing against harirism. in the discussion, i found out her husband used to own a couple of buildings and three stores in downtown beirut and they were all confiscated by solidere for a joke of a price. if a person is unable to fathom and realize on their own and on their own time that they had no need for anyone's charity had they not been deprived of their assets to begin with, and that their loyalty has been bought by a trickle of hat was originally was theirs, then there is nothing much you can say to convince them otherwise.

    and if people who lost almost everything they had to solidere cannot make such realizations, then do not hold your hopes up for others. i will say it once more, corruption is not restricted to the political ruling class, the Lebanese mind is rotting away, and the masses are equally as corrupt as the governing lot, with very rare exceptions.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    -

    Right. It's for all sects. Not Christian to begin with.
    Let us stick to the topic @ hand and before this thread gets derailed. Go read some history and you will figure that prior to 635 Beirut was pretty much a christian city.

    Was Hariri legacy better than the Aounists?
    The answer is could be ?

    Very different times. Lebanon was under Syrian occupation. Most of the militia men came back and held the state from WJ and Berri. They took the reign of the state ka2ano ma kan fe civil war in the country for 15 years.

    Hariri rebuilt the Airport and DT. DT was his playground. He took lands for ridiculous prices to make his kingdom. Money was raking in from the Saudi Arabia and the Gulf as Hariri was their main man. Was it better? For some economically one might say yes. Beirut was 24/24 electricity and alot of construction was taking place (not sure if that is a good thing) but it did happen. For the guys in Beirut some were very pleased.

    But the $1 saret 1500LL not as we had before the war and GDP skyrocketed 500%. Our country was 2 billion in debt now we had 15 billion after 4-5 years of Hariri's rule. His fault alone akide la2 but a part of his fault none-the-less.

    FPM era. We had the syrian occupation out. Syria in war with 2 million refugees in the country. It took a heavy toll on our country via infrastructure, energy used, jobs, etc.... the growth of the economy was 12% in 2011 and now 1% if not less. Was there anything changed? masalan the economy to start produce instead of just depending on expats and money coming from outside no!

    Both eras are to blame and I see them as an extension from one another. One was in and the other out of the country. The one in was martyred and the one outside came back in and took the helm of governance. Nothing was changed and just an extension of the former.
     
    S

    Saj

    New Member
    Hariri’s legacy isn’t complicated, it’s pretty clear he was bad. Anyone in charge of a country coming out of war is going to see economic growth, especially when the international consensus was to leave Lebanon alone. Hariri made Beirut too expensive for half of ahel Beirut to even afford living there, used his power to hurt those who refused to bow to him (St George), oversaw a massive debt increase even as he only get richer, tried to Islamize the country through naturalizations and even trying to start cabinet sessions with Islamic prayer. He spent the final years of the civil war funding rival factions to weaken them. He was a snake.

    Not to mention, Hariri set the corruption bar to where it is. Nabih Berri and Walid Jumblatt are evil corrupt men, but they were only able to do what they do because Hariri Senior made it the way of life in Lebanese politics.
     
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Let us stick to the topic @ hand and before this thread gets derailed. Go read some history and you will figure that prior to 635 Beirut was pretty much a christian city.

    Was Hariri legacy better than the Aounists?
    The answer is could be ?

    Very different times. Lebanon was under Syrian occupation. Most of the militia men came back and held the state from WJ and Berri. They took the reign of the state ka2ano ma kan fe civil war in the country for 15 years.

    Hariri rebuilt the Airport and DT. DT was his playground. He took lands for ridiculous prices to make his kingdom. Money was raking in from the Saudi Arabia and the Gulf as Hariri was their main man. Was it better? For some economically one might say yes. Beirut was 24/24 electricity and alot of construction was taking place (not sure if that is a good thing) but it did happen. For the guys in Beirut some were very pleased.

    But the $1 saret 1500LL not as we had before the war and GDP skyrocketed 500%. Our country was 2 billion in debt now we had 15 billion after 4-5 years of Hariri's rule. His fault alone akide la2 but a part of his fault none-the-less.

    FPM era. We had the syrian occupation out. Syria in war with 2 million refugees in the country. It took a heavy toll on our country via infrastructure, energy used, jobs, etc.... the growth of the economy was 12% in 2011 and now 1% if not less. Was there anything changed? masalan the economy to start produce instead of just depending on expats and money coming from outside no!

    Both eras are to blame and I see them as an extension from one another. One was in and the other out of the country. The one in was martyred and the one outside came back in and took the helm of governance. Nothing was changed and just an extension of the former.
    Don't disagree with anything you said in particular...
    But it doesn't matter what it was. As it was something else before it was Christian. It matters who won. Muslims won Beirut in the civil war. Too bad. You want it to be Christian and decide where mosques are built, you would have to fight for it. Good luck.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Don't disagree with anything you said in particular...
    But it doesn't matter what it was. As it was something else before it was Christian. It matters who won. Muslims won Beirut in the civil war. Too bad. You want it to be Christian and decide where mosques are built, you would have to fight for it. Good luck.
    who won?
    The country lost as a whole, no one won. You do know that those who live in Beirut now 60% of them are not from Beirut right? The whole city has changed. There are thousands upon thousands of people from outside the area that now live in Beirut.
     
    HalaMadrid

    HalaMadrid

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Do folks honestly believe that the downsides of Hariri's legacy and the problems with the policies he instituted are just Aounist hallucinations? I think his legacy is quite complicated, but if we pretend like the most insidious aspects are just smears, then we don't deal with the root causes of today's crisis.

    For people asking for citations, it is too long to post in its entirety, but a really good dispassionate analysis of his legacy from 2007 that cut through the fat of some of the hagiography of the time (it also is based on several books and academic studies cited within): Sect Symbols

    An key passage on Solidere:

    Instead of letting the rebuilding founder amid the factional infighting and corruption that curse the Lebanese state to this day, Hariri proposed an alternative: A private company, not subject to civil-service hiring requirements, would use the authority of the state to seize several hundred acres of privately owned land. Freed from the shackles of bureaucracy, this new company would revitalize the shellshocked old city center. And if the 20,000 or so souls who lived or owned land downtown were upset at being forced to render it up, the company had a plan for them: The value of their claims would be determined by special committees–paid for, indirectly, by Solidere–that would award them compensation in the form of Solidere stock. If Kenneth Lay had been governor of Texas and granted Enron sweeping powers to seize Texans’ homes and land, giving the homeowners nothing but Enron stock in return, it would have been something like Solidere.

    To call Solidere’s contract a sweetheart deal is like calling Enron a troubled company. Hariri was a major shareholder in Solidere, whose board of directors included his lawyer, his past and present employees and reportedly his Saudi business associates; at the same time, he was also the prime minister of the government that granted Solidere this extraordinary power to seize other people’s private land. The deal was negotiated between Hariri’s company, Hariri’s government and one of Hariri’s former employees, who was head of Lebanon’s reconstruction authority. “One can thus assume that these ‘negotiations’ took place in a rather cordial atmosphere,” Reinoud Leenders dryly notes in his forthcoming book Divided We Rule: Reconstruction, Institution Building and Corruption in Post-War Lebanon. This well-sourced and painstakingly footnoted investigation reveals how Solidere reaped millions (and possibly billions) that should have swelled the coffers of the Lebanese state–which today, with a rapidly rising $41 billion public debt, boasts one of the highest debt-to-GDP ratios in the world. Leenders–a former analyst for the International Crisis Group who teaches at the University of Amsterdam–combed through reams of financial reports and newspaper morgues in English, French and Arabic, carefully sifting through documents and depositions to critically evaluate the allegations of rampant corruption in Lebanon, including those about Hariri and Solidere. (Some of the most damning details in his book come from interviews with the company’s own officials.) The result is a devastating indictment of Solidere, and of the man who founded and effectively controlled it.

    Also, another noted not Aounist talking about the decimation of public space in Beirut from 1992 onward. This was of course not just Hariri and in large part about the municipality's own corruption and incompetence, but the discussion about Solidere from the first hand account of an architect is an important part of his legacy:
     
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