Hariri Family Legacy vs. Aounists' Accusations

Rafic Hariri

  • Death liberate Lebanon from Syria

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • He rebuilt Lebanon

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Was corrupted

    Votes: 17 73.9%
  • Was not corrupted

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • Was sectarian

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • Was not sectarian

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • His economic policy is better than the Aounists

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon in his days was much better than today

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon today is better

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Aoun economic policy was better

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Harriri is more important than Aoun as an historical leader

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Aoun is more important than Harriri as an historical leader

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • The crash today is Harriri legacy

    Votes: 14 60.9%
  • The crash today is Aoun Legacy

    Votes: 2 8.7%

  • Total voters
    23
shadow1

shadow1

Legendary Member
Orange Room Supporter
It's true Hariri did accomplish few infrastructure projects but at inflated cost. IMO he deserves credit for one thing only: restoring the architecturally nice buildings in the city centre. What offset that is the fact he, in collusion with jumblat and Berri, set the country on a destructive corruption path to which we are all paying a heavy price now.
As for Aoun,I dont expect him to accomplish anything. IMO he's just an air bubble. Sadly for him he will spend his term managing an acute economic crisis. Even in the extremely unlikely possibility that he did hold any good intentions for the country, that is now neither here nor there. He is a spent force. History will write about him as the best we-wanna-do president ever. Few empty slogans that have lost their punch even if he himself still believes it. Actually, he never did but his followers think he did.
 
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  • mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    That's mere hearsay. Do you have the evidence to prove it?

    Lebanon's debt peaked in 2006, due to Nasrallah's July blunder.
    Did any of you Aounists dare blame Hizbullah for our financial woes?

    Also, Hariri was killed in 2005. That's 15 years ago. Do you think it's acceptable for Aounists to continue to blame their ineffectiveness on political Harirism?
    I do agree HA's toll on the State costs us but we must not forget the fact that in 2005 the debt reached 35-37 billion $, nearly 50% of the current debt (if we value it at 80 billion $).

    Hariri is to blame for the first 15 years after the Taif (which is ironic because it occured in Saudi Arabia and not on Lebanese soil).

    Those in power the last 15 years are to blame for the second half of the debt as in march 14 and march 8.

    We were living on borrowed time. It seems our time is up. Brace for the worst come March, April or ultimately September 2020.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    Do folks honestly believe that the downsides of Hariri's legacy and the problems with the policies he instituted are just Aounist hallucinations? I think his legacy is quite complicated, but if we pretend like the most insidious aspects are just smears, then we don't deal with the root causes of today's crisis.

    For people asking for citations, it is too long to post in its entirety, but a really good dispassionate analysis of his legacy from 2007 that cut through the fat of some of the hagiography of the time (it also is based on several books and academic studies cited within): Sect Symbols

    An key passage on Solidere:

    Instead of letting the rebuilding founder amid the factional infighting and corruption that curse the Lebanese state to this day, Hariri proposed an alternative: A private company, not subject to civil-service hiring requirements, would use the authority of the state to seize several hundred acres of privately owned land. Freed from the shackles of bureaucracy, this new company would revitalize the shellshocked old city center. And if the 20,000 or so souls who lived or owned land downtown were upset at being forced to render it up, the company had a plan for them: The value of their claims would be determined by special committees–paid for, indirectly, by Solidere–that would award them compensation in the form of Solidere stock. If Kenneth Lay had been governor of Texas and granted Enron sweeping powers to seize Texans’ homes and land, giving the homeowners nothing but Enron stock in return, it would have been something like Solidere.

    To call Solidere’s contract a sweetheart deal is like calling Enron a troubled company. Hariri was a major shareholder in Solidere, whose board of directors included his lawyer, his past and present employees and reportedly his Saudi business associates; at the same time, he was also the prime minister of the government that granted Solidere this extraordinary power to seize other people’s private land. The deal was negotiated between Hariri’s company, Hariri’s government and one of Hariri’s former employees, who was head of Lebanon’s reconstruction authority. “One can thus assume that these ‘negotiations’ took place in a rather cordial atmosphere,” Reinoud Leenders dryly notes in his forthcoming book Divided We Rule: Reconstruction, Institution Building and Corruption in Post-War Lebanon. This well-sourced and painstakingly footnoted investigation reveals how Solidere reaped millions (and possibly billions) that should have swelled the coffers of the Lebanese state–which today, with a rapidly rising $41 billion public debt, boasts one of the highest debt-to-GDP ratios in the world. Leenders–a former analyst for the International Crisis Group who teaches at the University of Amsterdam–combed through reams of financial reports and newspaper morgues in English, French and Arabic, carefully sifting through documents and depositions to critically evaluate the allegations of rampant corruption in Lebanon, including those about Hariri and Solidere. (Some of the most damning details in his book come from interviews with the company’s own officials.) The result is a devastating indictment of Solidere, and of the man who founded and effectively controlled it.

    Also, another noted not Aounist talking about the decimation of public space in Beirut from 1992 onward. This was of course not just Hariri and in large part about the municipality's own corruption and incompetence, but the discussion about Solidere from the first hand account of an architect is an important part of his legacy:
    Reading this is simultaneously painful to believe AND accept it as a reality. Same with the 1 day succession law
     
    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    𓍝𓂀𓄃𓇼

    Active Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    The old Syriac church in Downtown Beirut was rebuilt after 1755 by the "Debs" family originally from Damascus. The Bishop who built it was a Syrian Nationalist Bishop Joseph Debs with a book named "تاريخ سوريا المطول"

    It's a Syrian artifact. Doesn't belong in Lebanon, IMHO.

    أسرة الدبس المارونية برز منها المطران يوسف الدبس (1833-1907) مؤسّس مدرسة الحكمة في بيروت عام 1875، وصاحب كتاب "تاريخ سوريا المطول"، كما شيّد كاتدرائية القدّيس جرجس في بيروت، وهو عالم ومؤرّخ. كما برز من أسرة الدبس المسيحيّة النائب السابق ميخائيل ناصر الدبس من مواليد زحلة عام 1924
     
    Muki

    Muki

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Hariri’s legacy isn’t complicated, it’s pretty clear he was bad. Anyone in charge of a country coming out of war is going to see economic growth, especially when the international consensus was to leave Lebanon alone. Hariri made Beirut too expensive for half of ahel Beirut to even afford living there, used his power to hurt those who refused to bow to him (St George), oversaw a massive debt increase even as he only get richer, tried to Islamize the country through naturalizations and even trying to start cabinet sessions with Islamic prayer. He spent the final years of the civil war funding rival factions to weaken them. He was a snake.

    Not to mention, Hariri set the corruption bar to where it is. Nabih Berri and Walid Jumblatt are evil corrupt men, but they were only able to do what they do because Hariri Senior made it the way of life in Lebanese politics.
    I disagree. Hariri wanted to accomplish a lot, but they did not let him work.
     
    S

    Saj

    New Member
    I disagree. Hariri wanted to accomplish a lot, but they did not let him work.
    He was the most powerful man in the country for at least a decade. Lebanon’s financial moves - development, construction, property sales, foreign investment - were all under his watch. The Syrians and their allies ran the security of the country but Hariri and the Saudis ran the money.

    Hariri built the system that led us to where we are today. He was not the only evil corrupt figure, but he was the evil corrupt figure who made it OK for others to be evil corrupt figures. Jumblatt, Berri, Murr and the rest could never have stolen what they stole if the strongest man in the country didn’t normalize corruption in the system. They followed his example. Even if the debt was half of what it is now when he died, he built the system that continued even after his death to this day, others just got bigger shares of the loot.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    He was the most powerful man in the country for at least a decade. Lebanon’s financial moves - development, construction, property sales, foreign investment - were all under his watch. The Syrians and their allies ran the security of the country but Hariri and the Saudis ran the money.

    Hariri built the system that led us to where we are today. He was not the only evil corrupt figure, but he was the evil corrupt figure who made it OK for others to be evil corrupt figures. Jumblatt, Berri, Murr and the rest could never have stolen what they stole if the strongest man in the country didn’t normalize corruption in the system. They followed his example. Even if the debt was half of what it is now when he died, he built the system that continued even after his death to this day, others just got bigger shares of the loot.
    kelloun to blame. Hariri started it and FPM finished it. Two parties that form the same coin just different sides.
     
    S

    Saj

    New Member
    kelloun to blame. Hariri started it and FPM finished it. Two parties that form the same coin just different sides.
    Unlike others I won’t deny there may have been corruption by some FPM figures. But again, it’s because the country never stopped being run the way Hariri ran it. The faces changed but the system stayed the same. The zo3ama need to acknowledge their desire to kill political Harirism, and every one of them who played Hariri’s game and play it to this day will be held accountable.

    Also the FPM has been targeted in non-proportional fashion for political reasons. If FPM is responsible for 25% of corruption, they sure do get 75% of the chants, and that’s not innocent.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Unlike others I won’t deny there may have been corruption by some FPM figures. But again, it’s because the country never stopped being run the way Hariri ran it. The faces changed but the system stayed the same. The zo3ama need to acknowledge their desire to kill political Harirism, and every one of them who played Hariri’s game and play it to this day will be held accountable.

    Also the FPM has been targeted in non-proportional fashion for political reasons. If FPM is responsible for 25% of corruption, they sure do get 75% of the chants, and that’s not innocent.
    Aslan it is not only Hariri. The biggest thief is Berri. Every single ministry he took has his remnants in it to the litani board to the LU head to the south council to to to. The country won't change and hence people need to accept it. We are a sectarian bunch. No one wants change aslan. Just hope for decentralisation and let each person take care of his own backyard.
     
    S

    Saj

    New Member
    Aslan it is not only Hariri. The biggest thief is Berri. Every single ministry he took has his remnants in it to the litani board to the LU head to the south council to to to. The country won't change and hence people need to accept it. We are a sectarian bunch. No one wants change aslan. Just hope for decentralisation and let each person take care of his own backyard.
    Sure, but Nabih Berri could never do what he is doing if Rafik Hariri didn’t make looting and stealing synonymous with Lebanese politics my friend. With time the players of the game get better at the game than the creators of the game. But it is still the fault first and foremost of the creator for introducing the game.
     
    Orangina

    Orangina

    Legendary Member
    Rafik Hariri Airport
    Rafik Hariri University
    Rafik Hariri Hospital
    Hariri foundation
    The reconstruction of Beirut
    Excellent foreign relations
    [......]
    and who said we want our airport called rafik hariri airport???...
    انه مطار بيروت الدولي
    period

    rafik hariri University???
    الجامعة اللبنانية قصدك... مجمع رفيق الحريري؟

    abt the reconstruction he did it from our money... and he stole the lands of solidere to do it... no need to repeat the same arguments

    and abt his excellent foreign relations... those relations lead us to where we r now

    مرتهن للسعودية رفيقك الحريري
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    That's mere hearsay. Do you have the evidence to prove it?
    Hearsay you say? Like the hearsay about man having walked the moon? I haven't seen anyone walking the surface of the moon after my first hashish trip, yet I kind of trust the photo and video evidence that prove it. Is a 15 years hegemonic reign of Rafiq Hariri with an increase of his own wealth by few billions while leaving us with a 50 billion $ national debt as per 2005, hearsay or evidence, enough to prove his titanic thievery?

    Lebanon's debt peaked in 2006, due to Nasrallah's July blunder.
    Did any of you Aounists dare blame Hizbullah for our financial woes?
    Do not Aounist me 3al tayer. I am as much an Aounist as you are an evangelist. Hizballah was Hariri's partner until he was gone. Their partnership, however, was of varying nature and degree, and they bear their own part of guilt to our current misery.

    Also, Hariri was killed in 2005. That's 15 years ago. Do you think it's acceptable for Aounists to continue to blame their ineffectiveness on political Harirism?
    No, and yes. The Aounists simply gave up too soon aftet realizing they are not at the top of the food chain in the farm. Navigating the unexplored ocean bed is easier for a land cow than for reformists or wannabe dito to zig-zig their way through the Lebanese politics mazes.
     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member


    Rafik Hariri doesnt want Christian Leaders to be represented.... He made a law and called Ghattas khoury like his calling a servant or a dog...

    في عندي ماروني

    يا عيب الشوم


    مشكلة الحريرية السياسية انو ما قدر على ميشال عون وجبران باسيل


    اسمعو منيح بدو ذمية معو
     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member
    من اعطى الجنسية ل

    500000

    فلسطيني؟

    قال لغسي قال
     
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