Hariri Family Legacy vs. Aounists' Accusations

Rafic Hariri

  • Death liberate Lebanon from Syria

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • He rebuilt Lebanon

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Was corrupted

    Votes: 17 73.9%
  • Was not corrupted

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • Was sectarian

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • Was not sectarian

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • His economic policy is better than the Aounists

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon in his days was much better than today

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Lebanon today is better

    Votes: 2 8.7%
  • Aoun economic policy was better

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • Harriri is more important than Aoun as an historical leader

    Votes: 4 17.4%
  • Aoun is more important than Harriri as an historical leader

    Votes: 9 39.1%
  • The crash today is Harriri legacy

    Votes: 14 60.9%
  • The crash today is Aoun Legacy

    Votes: 2 8.7%

  • Total voters
    23
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  • !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Sure, but Nabih Berri could never do what he is doing if Rafik Hariri didn’t make looting and stealing synonymous with Lebanese politics my friend. With time the players of the game get better at the game than the creators of the game. But it is still the fault first and foremost of the creator for introducing the game.
    For me the biggest issue was the naming of the airport. i came to lebanon and in the plane they said coming to rafik hariri airport. i was pissed.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member

    Screenshot_20200217-232538_WhatsApp.jpg
    This excerpt shows the vast amounts of money that the government had and how it was spent (more like spoiled).
    Screenshot_20200217-232521_WhatsApp.jpg
    This excerpt shows the parasites in the State that, to roughly quote the article, "suck upon the State like ghouls and vampires" (you get the idea).

    Although it is admirable to be the devil's advocate, this particular case seems, however, impossible to win or to absolve the suspect (Hariri) of his role in the downfall of the State.

    The baseless excuses that he wanted to work or do things for the greater good are nothing but make-belief arguments by die-hard fans that refuse to believe their sectarian lord and master is responsible for the deterioriation of their livelihood and fooled them like the puppeteer he truly was.

    At the very least, if all of this is purely circumstantial evidence, the man was above all Prime Minister and under his Governments Lebanon got to the point it was : heavily indebted and a den of corruption. It means you don't need to prove where he f.cked up. It happened under his watch. He is responsible.

    I fear for the future when the populace will realize they have loved and martyred a slimy corrupted human being, I fear for his fanbase when or if they come to the realization of how they were but instruments and tools for him to get rich at their expense.

    There are no deep motives behind the thievery and skullduggery folks. Alas, it is but a sad tale of how a "Lebanese" prime minister funded by Saudi money got to dismantle and corrupt the State and doomed generations because of his and his peers' never-ending greed.

    Thoughts?
     
    My Moria Moon

    My Moria Moon

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter

    View attachment 17784
    This excerpt shows the vast amounts of money that the government had and how it was spent (more like spoiled).
    View attachment 17785
    This excerpt shows the parasites in the State that, to roughly quote the article, "suck upon the State like ghouls and vampires" (you get the idea).

    Although it is admirable to be the devil's advocate, this particular case seems, however, impossible to win or to absolve the suspect (Hariri) of his role in the downfall of the State.

    The baseless excuses that he wanted to work or do things for the greater good are nothing but make-belief arguments by die-hard fans that refuse to believe their sectarian lord and master is responsible for the deterioriation of their livelihood and fooled them like the puppeteer he truly was.

    At the very least, if all of this is purely circumstantial evidence, the man was above all Prime Minister and under his Governments Lebanon got to the point it was : heavily indebted and a den of corruption. It means you don't need to prove where he f.cked up. It happened under his watch. He is responsible.

    I fear for the future when the populace will realize they have loved and martyred a slimy corrupted human being, I fear for his fanbase when or if they come to the realization of how they were but instruments and tools for him to get rich at their expense.

    There are no deep motives behind the thievery and skullduggery folks. Alas, it is but a sad tale of how a "Lebanese" prime minister funded by Saudi money got to dismantle and corrupt the State and doomed generations because of his and his peers' never-ending greed.

    Thoughts?
    Excellent description of the looter.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member

    View attachment 17784
    This excerpt shows the vast amounts of money that the government had and how it was spent (more like spoiled).
    View attachment 17785
    This excerpt shows the parasites in the State that, to roughly quote the article, "suck upon the State like ghouls and vampires" (you get the idea).

    Although it is admirable to be the devil's advocate, this particular case seems, however, impossible to win or to absolve the suspect (Hariri) of his role in the downfall of the State.

    The baseless excuses that he wanted to work or do things for the greater good are nothing but make-belief arguments by die-hard fans that refuse to believe their sectarian lord and master is responsible for the deterioriation of their livelihood and fooled them like the puppeteer he truly was.

    At the very least, if all of this is purely circumstantial evidence, the man was above all Prime Minister and under his Governments Lebanon got to the point it was : heavily indebted and a den of corruption. It means you don't need to prove where he f.cked up. It happened under his watch. He is responsible.

    I fear for the future when the populace will realize they have loved and martyred a slimy corrupted human being, I fear for his fanbase when or if they come to the realization of how they were but instruments and tools for him to get rich at their expense.

    There are no deep motives behind the thievery and skullduggery folks. Alas, it is but a sad tale of how a "Lebanese" prime minister funded by Saudi money got to dismantle and corrupt the State and doomed generations because of his and his peers' never-ending greed.

    Thoughts?
    The issue which is also a big one and just as bad is after Hariri. Hariri became PM in 92 and adech he lasted 8 years out of 13 bel post as PM?
    From 2005 until 2020 is 15 years. What actually has been done in those 15 years? nothing. zilch...which is a bigger issue for me.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    The issue which is also a big one and just as bad is after Hariri. Hariri became PM in 92 and adech he lasted 8 years out of 13 bel post as PM?
    From 2005 until 2020 is 15 years. What actually has been done in those 15 years? nothing. zilch...which is a bigger issue for me.
    The second part of the 15 years is due to ineptitude. Sure there was public squandering of funds but not as the likes during the Hariri eras.

    The first 15 got us 40 billion in debt. The second was the compounding of that debt along with interests, coupled with your usual corruption.

    In other words, the second par-------- yeah never mind, the answer is plain old corruption. Just add in ineptitude.

    -2006 war that we "won" but sent us back to the stone age (I call ot pyrrhic victory)
    -11 billion of Sanioura extrabudgetary spending
    -2011 beginning of syrian refugee crisis and their toll on the State
    -EDL and the lack of solutions for decades of that sector
    -the alleged non-payment of customs by HA
    -the Berri-Jumblatt- "Hariri" troika mafia
    -FPM that want to reform and fight corruption (which shouldn't be something other parties disagree with in principle)

    Among other things.

    Well if you look at it this way, what changed is the presence of FPM. I admire those that tend to be virtuous and fight hopeless battles against corruption and evil, but fighting for 15 years to no avail while being allied with HA that shields Berri from scrutiny is folly to say the least.

    It's not the "you fight long enough to be one of them" sketches but more of you are incapable of doing any tangible change because of your political alliances that restrict any fundamental reforms. How can you fight corruption when you are allied with the root causes of the problems?

    If all this seems circumstantial, we apply the same sane logic : you are in power. Sh!t happens during your reign. You don't hold up to your promises ==> you are responsible.

    This is the Aounist legacy we are talking about but it is still early to decide yet. If the Diab Government manages to miraculously, in spite of the impending economic apocalypse, vote in the Justice Reforms Law among them the independance of the judges, that alone could save Aoun's legacy.

    Still though. 10 years with energy ministry and no progress? We rented power barges instead of building power stations or using the cheaper natural gas. I'm not necessarily saying FPM are corrupt. I'm saying that if they were that much in power or in positions of power and still couldn't reform or change, it means the mechanisms in place didn't allow them to/the system is flawed (which isn't new).

    But to cling to power and promise to no avail, on the other hand, that seems to me a bit... too much for your average joe to accept.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    The second part of the 15 years is due to ineptitude. Sure there was public squandering of funds but not as the likes during the Hariri eras.

    The first 15 got us 40 billion in debt. The second was the compounding of that debt along with interests, coupled with your usual corruption.

    In other words, the second par-------- yeah never mind, the answer is plain old corruption. Just add in ineptitude.

    -2006 war that we "won" but sent us back to the stone age (I call ot pyrrhic victory)
    -11 billion of Sanioura extrabudgetary spending
    -2011 beginning of syrian refugee crisis and their toll on the State
    -EDL and the lack of solutions for decades of that sector
    -the alleged non-payment of customs by HA
    -the Berri-Jumblatt- "Hariri" troika mafia
    -FPM that want to reform and fight corruption (which shouldn't be something other parties disagree with in principle)

    Among other things.

    Well if you look at it this way, what changed is the presence of FPM. I admire those that tend to be virtuous and fight hopeless battles against corruption and evil, but fighting for 15 years to no avail while being allied with HA that shields Berri from scrutiny is folly to say the least.

    It's not the "you fight long enough to be one of them" sketches but more of you are incapable of doing any tangible change because of your political alliances that restrict any fundamental reforms. How can you fight corruption when you are allied with the root causes of the problems?

    If all this seems circumstantial, we apply the same sane logic : you are in power. Sh!t happens during your reign. You don't hold up to your promises ==> you are responsible.

    This is the Aounist legacy we are talking about but it is still early to decide yet. If the Diab Government manages to miraculously, in spite of the impending economic apocalypse, vote in the Justice Reforms Law among them the independance of the judges, that alone could save Aoun's legacy.

    Still though. 10 years with energy ministry and no progress? We rented power barges instead of building power stations or using the cheaper natural gas. I'm not necessarily saying FPM are corrupt. I'm saying that if they were that much in power or in positions of power and still couldn't reform or change, it means the mechanisms in place didn't allow them to/the system is flawed (which isn't new).

    But to cling to power and promise to no avail, on the other hand, that seems to me a bit... too much for your average joe to accept.
    The troika are the problem. It's just a matter of how do parties want to act and ally with regards to the objectives pursued.
    I personally see FPM's political choices understandable but paradoxical. Thus part of the problem instead of the solution. They have an important role to play. It's a matter of when they shift political allegiances and start to defy the odds. (If they shift at all... depends on willingness to be independant from HA)

    FPM and LF could ally (hypothetically) and launch campaigns against Berri. Wouldn't that entail though a civil war? However that narrative could turn to the naked eye as a war "by the Christian right against the Poor Shia defenders of the South".

    The solution is to wait for the old guard to die out. Lebanon's woes are due to the fact that the milita that destroyed the country found themselves in power after Taef and ran the country with the same mentality. It's why we live the aftermath of the war daily with the same sectarian rhetoric: it is what they only know.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    The second part of the 15 years is due to ineptitude. Sure there was public squandering of funds but not as the likes during the Hariri eras.

    The first 15 got us 40 billion in debt. The second was the compounding of that debt along with interests, coupled with your usual corruption.

    In other words, the second par-------- yeah never mind, the answer is plain old corruption. Just add in ineptitude.

    -2006 war that we "won" but sent us back to the stone age (I call ot pyrrhic victory)
    -11 billion of Sanioura extrabudgetary spending
    -2011 beginning of syrian refugee crisis and their toll on the State
    -EDL and the lack of solutions for decades of that sector
    -the alleged non-payment of customs by HA
    -the Berri-Jumblatt- "Hariri" troika mafia
    -FPM that want to reform and fight corruption (which shouldn't be something other parties disagree with in principle)

    Among other things.

    Well if you look at it this way, what changed is the presence of FPM. I admire those that tend to be virtuous and fight hopeless battles against corruption and evil, but fighting for 15 years to no avail while being allied with HA that shields Berri from scrutiny is folly to say the least.

    It's not the "you fight long enough to be one of them" sketches but more of you are incapable of doing any tangible change because of your political alliances that restrict any fundamental reforms. How can you fight corruption when you are allied with the root causes of the problems?

    If all this seems circumstantial, we apply the same sane logic : you are in power. Sh!t happens during your reign. You don't hold up to your promises ==> you are responsible.

    This is the Aounist legacy we are talking about but it is still early to decide yet. If the Diab Government manages to miraculously, in spite of the impending economic apocalypse, vote in the Justice Reforms Law among them the independance of the judges, that alone could save Aoun's legacy.

    Still though. 10 years with energy ministry and no progress? We rented power barges instead of building power stations or using the cheaper natural gas. I'm not necessarily saying FPM are corrupt. I'm saying that if they were that much in power or in positions of power and still couldn't reform or change, it means the mechanisms in place didn't allow them to/the system is flawed (which isn't new).

    But to cling to power and promise to no avail, on the other hand, that seems to me a bit... too much for your average joe to accept.
    The first 15 years gave us ~35 billion. The next 15 years gave us 40 billion if not more. FPM corrupt or not didn't do jack to stop or to change the situation. It received alot of ministers, 1/3+1 in government, alot of state 1 positions, etc etc.. nothing changed. the same status quo. Then for the icing on the cake it had an alliance with Hariri Junior in the settlement pact so PMA can become President and Hariri PM. Cut the ****ing cake and each got his slice. The energy ministry by itself for the last 10 years gave us 20-30 billion in debt. The true debt no one knows as I imagine it would be more than 100 billion. Let the country crash. People deserve it.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    The troika are the problem. It's just a matter of how do parties want to act and ally with regards to the objectives pursued.

    FPM and LF could ally and launch campaigns against Berri. Wouldn't that entail though a civil war? That narrative could turn to the naked eye as a war "by the Christian right against the Poor Shia defenders of the South".

    The solution is to wait for the old guard to die out. Lebanon's woes are due to the fact that the milita that destroyed the country found themselves in power after Taef and ran the country with the same mentality. It's why we live the aftermath of the war daily with the same sectarian rhetoric: it is what they only know.
    No.
    The solution is to have a system where we have a senate and admin decentralisation where each province looks after its own citizens. We are 18 sects with each not caring about the other. We just are just lying to others and to ourselves if we think any differently. We need to fight corruption in the state. There is no way a country small as ours has 300K state employees if not more with 50% of them doing jack sh**. Time to fire them. Costing us money for no productivity.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    No.
    The solution is to have a system where we have a senate and admin decentralisation where each province looks after its own citizens. We are 18 sects with each not caring about the other. We just are just lying to others and to ourselves if we think any differently. We need to fight corruption in the state. There is no way a country small as ours has 300K state employees if not more with 50% of them doing jack sh**. Time to fire them. Costing us money for no productivity.
    Agreed. But how can it practically be implemented if the one that controls Parliament is Berri?

    He is the obstacle. Legally and practically. Only he can decide the "jadwal a3mel" and decide when to vote on what law. As long as he remains in power, shielded by HA, he shall never give in to change and reform. Thus the sad solution of waiting for Allah to take him away (or not God. Maybe a freak accident that caused him to slip)
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Agreed. But how can it practically be implemented if the one that controls Parliament is Berri?

    He is the obstacle. Legally and practically. Only he can decide the "jadwal a3mel" and decide when to vote on what law. As long as he remains in power, shielded by HA, he shall never give in to change and reform. Thus the sad solution of waiting for Allah to take him away (or not God. Maybe a freak accident that caused him to slip)
    You do know the budget for example needs a quorum in Parliament so it is approved? The government to be approved also needs a quorum in Parliament? b3atel his work so no quorum is done... I open an emergency parliament session which is in the constitution by the President to discuss an issue or vote on a specific topic. there is alot of things that can be done or used you just need to have the balls to do it. But yes Berri is an issue.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    No.
    The solution is to have a system where we have a senate and admin decentralisation where each province looks after its own citizens. We are 18 sects with each not caring about the other. We just are just lying to others and to ourselves if we think any differently. We need to fight corruption in the state. There is no way a country small as ours has 300K state employees if not more with 50% of them doing jack sh**. Time to fire them. Costing us money for no productivity.
    Decentralization leads to accountability and sustainability as well as fiscal independance.

    Senate could function as storing in all the sects.

    It's a very close system resembling federalism such as in the USA. It is the best solution for Lebanon. More checks and balances.

    But again, Berri is the obstacle. What to do? We must ask why things are the way they are. Why Berri was allowed to remain in power for so long. Only by asking the right questions can we have catharsis and discover the root causes of our feeble State.
     
    mariob2

    mariob2

    Member
    You do know the budget for example needs a quorum in Parliament so it is approved? The government to be approved also needs a quorum in Parliament? b3atel his work so no quorum is done... I open an emergency parliament session which is in the constitution by the President to discuss an issue or vote on a specific topic. there is alot of things that can be done or used you just need to have the balls to do it. But yes Berri is an issue.
    I couldn't agree more. But why not do it then? What is keeping it from happening?
    As you said, it takes some balls to make the right decisions.
     
    !Aoune32

    !Aoune32

    Well-Known Member
    Decentralization leads to accountability and sustainability as well as fiscal independance.

    Senate could function as storing in all the sects.

    It's a very close system resembling federalism such as in the USA. It is the best solution for Lebanon. More checks and balances.

    But again, Berri is the obstacle. What to do? We must ask why things are the way they are. Why Berri was allowed to remain in power for so long. Only by asking the right questions can we have catharsis and discover the root causes of our feeble State.
    Why has Berri been there for so long? la2ano the shia sect gives him cover. nothing more nothing less. It is his right to be the representative of the sect same as others rights. Each have a veto on things and do as they please.

    Pass "emergency decrees" without the parliament's approval (article 58) Requires a half + 1 majority of the ministers. To pass emergency decrees without the parliament's approval, the parliament must spend 40 days without taking any action on a bill that was previously declared urgent by the president.

    What I would also do is veto the law. The only way a law can be passed if it has 1/2+1 in Parliament. I don't go to Parliament and hence the law is vetoed.
     
    NewLeb

    NewLeb

    New Member
    The real reason that the Aounies hate Hariri is because of one thing: envy. They despise the fact that he was a tall and slender Muslim Sunni billionaire; while their faction is ruled by a short, stout and broke nobody.

    All this talk about “theft” and “corruption” is horse****. If Hariri was a fat and small Maronite, they would have worshipped the ground he walked on.
     
    Resign

    Resign

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Decentralization leads to accountability and sustainability as well as fiscal independance.

    Senate could function as storing in all the sects.

    It's a very close system resembling federalism such as in the USA. It is the best solution for Lebanon. More checks and balances.

    But again, Berri is the obstacle. What to do? We must ask why things are the way they are. Why Berri was allowed to remain in power for so long. Only by asking the right questions can we have catharsis and discover the root causes of our feeble State.
    You keep repeating Berri is the obstacle.
    Yet FPM voted him and made sure he gets christian votes.. Because that’s what HA wants
    Berri is the obstacle yet himself and Bassil formed the current government together.

    Well yea maybe 3awn and FPM are not as qawi as we thought they are.
    They failed, I’d like to try somebody new.
    Someone who know how to deal with Berri not someone who votes him then whines 24/7
     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member
    You keep repeating Berri is the obstacle.
    Yet FPM voted him and made sure he gets christian votes.. Because that’s what HA wants
    Berri is the obstacle yet himself and Bassil formed the current government together.

    Well yea maybe 3awn and FPM are not as qawi as we thought they are.
    They failed, I’d like to try somebody new.
    Someone who know how to deal with Berri not someone who votes him then whines 24/7
    Because they respected electing Aoun, Aoun raddalon yeha by respecting the majority of Shi3as wish.. Illa iza baddak teflat le2mour w tetrok el Islam henne yjibo Ra2issna... at least we got our own president....
     
    R

    Ralph N

    Well-Known Member
    For all those Christians who love Hariri, remember even Bachir Legmayel warned us about Hariri... from that day...
    For Christians who are true crusaders, be at the side of the true Christian Leader Aoun and Bassil.. Not with the side of Hariri - Berri- Jumbi...
     
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