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Huawei: When reality hits home and Trump is America CEO.

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

Legendary Member
Why are we even debating this?

This kind of actions is not even considered to start with.
Actually, from technical point of view this is only action to consider and I am sure this is what they think about.

It is very easy and very simple to implement and requires practically no effort to enforce and to monitor.
 
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  • Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Actually, from technical point of view this is only action to consider and I am sure this is what they think about.

    It is very easy and very simple to implement and requires practically no effort to enforce and to monitor.
    This is outside the scope of the ban and a complete illegal activity. Unless you have an official announcement of the kind, which I doubt, Facebook is not even thinking about putting itself in such a mess of a situation. It will be fined, forced to pay damages in class actions suits and banned Worldwide, if it even tries.

    Such behavior being easy or not is irrelevant. It's also easy to shoot someone walking in the street. So what. (PS: It's also easy to circumvent it and requires even less efforts...)
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Facebook's Move Against Huawei Is Symbolic but Toothless
    Huawei users that want it can still easily install Facebook’s app from two different app stores.

    Leo Sun
    Jun 10, 2019 at 6:15PM


    Facebook (NASDAQ:FB) will no longer allow Huawei to pre-install its core app, Messenger, Instagram, or WhatsApp on its smartphones, according to Reuters. The decision comes after several other companies -- including Intel, Qualcomm, and ARM Holdings -- cut ties with Huawei amid the Trump Administration's escalating war against the Chinese tech giant.

    In mid-May, the Trump Administration placed Huawei on an "entity list" of companies that are barred from buying American technologies without the government's approval. The ban on Huawei was suspended for 90 days to allow companies to fulfill security and contractual obligations, but Huawei could still be permanently cut off from American technologies if a trade deal isn't reached.

    Facebook's decision to stop Huawei from pre-installing its apps initially sounds important, but it's ultimately toothless when you consider a few key issues.


    A symbolic move with no real bite

    Facebook isn't blocking Huawei users from using its apps, it's only preventing Huawei from pre-installing the apps on new phones, which means that customers simply need to install the apps from an app store like Alphabet's (NASDAQ:GOOG) (NASDAQ:GOOGL) Google Play or Huawei's AppGallery.

    Google plans to cut new Huawei devices off from Google Play and other Google services when the 90-day extension ends in mid August. However, Huawei users can still download and install Facebook's flagship apps from the AppGallery, which is pre-installed on all Huawei devices.

    Huawei controls 23% of the global smartphone market, according to IDC. But its biggest market is China, where it's the top player with a 28% market share, according to Counterpoint Research. Yet Facebook, Messenger, Instagram, and WhatsApp are all blocked in China -- so the impact there is non-existent.

    Meanwhile, users in Huawei's other top markets, like Europe and Latin America, simply need to install Facebook's apps on new phones. Therefore, Reuters' claim that Facebook's decision "dampens the sales outlook" for Huawei greatly exaggerates the impact of a move that really has no bite.


    A setback for Facebook's Chinese ambitions

    Facebook's main platforms are all blocked in China, but it took baby steps back into the market last year with experimental apps like the photo-sharing app Colorful Balloons, a VR partnershipwith Xiaomi, and the launch of a Chinese subsidiary.

    However, Facebook's latest move against Huawei indicates that protecting its business in the U.S. and other markets matters more than its long-term aspirations in China. It's unclear if Chinese regulators will retaliate against Facebook's limited presence in China, but they'll likely shoot down any efforts to relaunch its apps.


    Is Facebook trying to curry the U.S. government's favor?

    Facebook currently has 2.4 billion monthly active users (MAUs) on its main platform, 1.3 billion MAUs on Messenger, a billion MAUs on Instagram, and 1.6 billion MAUs on WhatsApp.

    Based on the size of that ecosystem, Facebook doesn't rely on smartphone makers pre-installing its apps to gain or lock in users. That's generally what underdogs do -- for example, Microsoftpartnered with various Android OEMs in recent years to pre-install its apps on phones as alternatives to Google's apps.

    However, Facebook's ecosystem is still being scrutinized by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. The FTC, which was already probing Facebook's privacy and security issues, was recently assigned to oversee a potential antitrust probe of the social network. It could be tough for the FTC to build an antitrust case against Facebook, because it still has meaningful competitors in the social networking and advertising markets.

    Nonetheless, it's still in Facebook's best interest to stay in the government's good graces, so making a symbolic stand against Huawei might convince the Trump Administration to stop targeting Facebook, Google, Apple, and Amazon with FTC or DOJ probes. It just won't actually hurt Huawei or prevent its smartphone users from accessing its apps.

     
    opium

    opium

    Well-Known Member
    outside china

    huwaei is now considered a phone, not a smart one ,
    basically range for such tel are at best $50 to $90 dollars

    no one will shell %650 for a mate 10 pro , like i did last year

    china better huyrry up with a deal or huwaei is dead
    I paid 1000 usd for my P30 pro, Huawei is offering the best technology in high end/flagship smartphones at the moment.
    And I have no problem ditching Google or FB for the new OS.
     
    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    proIsrael-nonIsraeli

    Legendary Member
    This is outside the scope of the ban and a complete illegal activity. Unless you have an official announcement of the kind, which I doubt, Facebook is not even thinking about putting itself in such a mess of a situation. It will be fined, forced to pay damages in class actions suits and banned Worldwide, if it even tries.

    Such behavior being easy or not is irrelevant. It's also easy to shoot someone walking in the street. So what. (PS: It's also easy to circumvent it and requires even less efforts...)
    "This is outside the scope of the ban and a complete illegal activity." - now you are saying silly things. In one single sentence you invented limits and invented illegality of bans.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "This is outside the scope of the ban and a complete illegal activity." - now you are saying silly things. In one single sentence you invented limits and invented illegality of bans.
    "In one single sentence you invented limits": No, you invented an act that does not exist, that no one committed and that no one even considered. If you have proof of the opposite, show it.

    "invented illegality of bans": No one is discussing the ban itself from the viewpoint of legality. Read again.
     
    Resign

    Resign

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "In one single sentence you invented limits": No, you invented an act that does not exist, that no one committed and that no one even considered. If you have proof of the opposite, show it.

    "invented illegality of bans": No one is discussing the ban itself from the viewpoint of legality. Read again.
    From a technical point of view what you're considering as an act that 'does not exist', does exist and it's so easily done. For example apple restricting access to some of its services except on apple devices.
    from a legal perspective, it's the same as the US government banning ZTE from using american hardware or software
    the same can be applied to Huawei.
    or the Chinese government banning almost every other american website or service in China.

    Google owns its software, apps and services and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
    If you and/or Huawei think there's a legal breach, you and/or Huawei are more than welcome filing law suits to american courts and chasing them there.
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
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    Why Blacklisting Huawei Could Backfire
    The History of Chinese Indigenous Innovation

    By Lorand Laskai June 19, 2019



    An engineer stands under a 5G base station antenna in Huawei's near-field testing system in Dongguan, Guangdong province, China , May 2019
    Jason Lee / REUTERS



    Last spring, when the U.S. Department of Commerce added the Chinese telecommunications company ZTE to a trade blacklist, effectively severing ZTE from its vital U.S. suppliers, Chinese President Xi Jinping told an audience at a tech company that the Chinese people must “cast aside the illusion and rely on ourselves.”

    “The illusion” was the idea that China can prosper even as it relies on foreign technology.

    The Trump administration seems determined to prove Xi right. Last month, it blacklisted the telecommunications giant Huawei, the third major Chinese company to be added to the Commerce Department’s blandly named Entity List within the last year. Huawei is an indispensable Chinese company, central both to the rollout of China’s 5G mobile network at home and to the country’s efforts to expand its digital influence abroad. The Trump administration is also considering blacklisting several of China’s largest artificial intelligence companies.

    The Trump administration is betting that banning Chinese tech companies will bring Beijing to the negotiating table with the aim of negotiating “structural changes” to the Chinese economy. And barring that, it is hoping to deal China a blow in the race to harness next-generation technologies, such as AI and 5G.

    But within China, the administration’s moves have created a powerful new consensus in support of “self-reliance” and “indigenous innovation,” two mantras of the Chinese Communist Party that the country’s tech industry has reluctantly taken up. Washington has underestimated China’s ability to “tighten its belt,” as Xi put it after the ZTE blacklisting, and to develop replacements for foreign technology.

    The Trump administration may well be paving the way toward a more technologically independent, and possibly more powerful, China.


    THE HISTORY OF SELF RELIANCE

    In China, the concept of “self-reliance,” or ziligengsheng, traces its roots back to the civil war, when Mao Zedong’s communist guerrillas found themselves isolated and facing annihilation at the hands of the U.S.-backed nationalist forces. According to Communist Party lore, the communists lived off the land and decentralized the production of economic and military goods as they rebuilt their forces and marshaled their strength.

    When, in 2014, Xi revived the concept as a call to reduce China’s dependence on foreign technology, the Mao-era slogan seemed an awkward fit for the age of global supply chains.

    But China has a long tradition of defying international embargoes. During the Cold War, China succeeded in developing an atomic bomb even after the Soviet Union had cut off its technical support. Throughout the 1990s, China developed sophisticated satellites and rockets despite comprehensive U.S. sanctions on space-related technologies. In 2015, when the Obama administration prevented Intel from selling processors to China for its latest supercomputer, Chinese researchers quickly developed a local replacement. Less than a year and a half later, China unveiled TaihuLight, then the world’s fastest supercomputer, which ran entirely on Chinese-made processors.

    These successes are partly the result of official policy. For decades, the Chinese government has urged scientists and researchers to go about their work with “the spirit of two bombs, one satellite”—a reference to China’s nuclear and missile programs during the height of the country’s isolation in the 1960s.

    To make the spirit a reality, China has developed a sprawling network of state and military research labs, including the Chinese Academy of Science, arguably the world’s largest research organization, with 115 research centers and 60,000 scientists.

    This investment has translated into a formidable capacity for indigenous development, either through copying, and then building on, foreign technologies or through developing homegrown alternatives. China’s space sector, which has been almost entirely cut off from the United States for the past two decades, has built most of its satellites and rocket components from scratch. U.S. export controls on space-grade microchips have “actually benefitted China in unexpected ways over the years, because we’ve had to develop our own,” Zhao Yuanfu, a top state scientist, told the online magazine Sixth Tone in February.

    After nearly a decade of work, China produces all the microchips it needs for advanced satellites, including the BeiDou Navigation Satellite constellation, China’s answer to the U.S. military-run Global Positioning System.

    But indigenous development takes hold only when foreign options run out, and few tech sectors in China are as cut off from the outside world as the space industry. For decades, Chinese researchers, at the behest of Chinese leaders seeking “secure and controllable” IT systems, have worked on a domestic alternative to Microsoft Windows. But the weak demand for a homegrown operating system due to the wide availability of foreign alternatives, not to mention the sheer complexity of building one from scratch, has stymied their efforts.

    China has also invested heavily in disrupting Intel and AMD’s near duopoly on cutting-edge central processing units. Yet Chinese developers continue to rely on more advanced foreign CPUs, which are more powerful and versatile than homegrown Chinese CPUs. As a result, even as China’s economic and political power has expanded, its economy has grown more, not less, dependent on foreign technology and components.

    “The biggest challenge for indigenous innovation is not technology, talent, or capital, but the market,” Gao Xudong, a researcher at Tsinghua University, said in a 2017 interview. “Even if we produce a good product through indigenous innovation, it will not succeed if there is no market.”

    China’s technology industry illustrates the problems markets pose to Beijing’s self-reliance push. The wide availability of superior foreign software and hardware has hampered progress.

    Moreover, China’s tech giants have long been noncommittal toward Beijing’s self-reliance drive, choosing to invest in lucrative consumer-facing applications rather than the “core technologies” that the state values. The country’s three largest tech companies, Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent, all owe their large valuations to consumer products built on Western technologies.

    None other than Huawei founder Ren Zhengfei has repeatedly bashed the idea of indigenous innovation and extolled the advantages of global supply chains. “The idea that one needs to do everything themselves is a mentality only for peasants,” Ren said in an interview last year.


    HUAWEI OR THE HIGHWAY

    Blacklisting Huawei, however, has turbocharged the indigenous innovation effort. As a result of the blacklisting, the company plans to launch a replacement for Google’s Android operating system later this year. It is also working to replace a myriad of U.S. components and software to which it will soon lose access.

    Last week, Bloomberg reported that Huawei has up to 10,000 developers working around the clock in three cities to “eliminate the need for American software and circuitry.”

    Beneath this burst of outward activity, a quieter and more consequential shift is taking place.

    U.S. action against Chinese companies has begun to change their calculus toward indigenous development. Reeling from U.S. sanctions, Huawei executives traveled to Peking University last week to launch an R & D partnership with the university to bolster Huawei’s capacity for “indigenous innovation.”

    By using the official slogan, Huawei’s bosses seemed to be offering a mea culpa for their past resistance to self-reliance. Other executives have also changed their tune. Reflecting on the ZTE incident, Jack Ma, the founder of Alibaba, told a recent tech forum, “If we do not master the core technologies, we will be building roofs on other people’s walls and planting vegetables in other people's yards.”

    After the ZTE incident last year, Alibaba launched a chip business that will aim to reduce China’s dependence on foreign chips.

    Even before the Trump administration began blacklisting Chinese tech companies, Beijing had advanced toward self-reliance.

    In 2014, the government launched a massive initiative to reduce China’s dependence on foreign chips. As part of that push, it will invest more than $100 billion in semiconductor design and manufacturing.

    Made in China 2025, the 2015 master plan to upgrade China’s industrial capacity, specifically targets foreign inputs in high-tech sectors and aims for “self-sufficiency” in crucial components. China has also begun mobilizing its financial markets, establishing a new “tech board” on the Shanghai Stock Exchange to invest in companies working on technology the state deems strategically important.

    Yet the United States may find that it has done more for self-reliance by banning ZTE and Huawei than the Chinese government has managed in a decade of official policy. Now that they are walking in lockstep, government and industry can move much faster.

    An international juggernaut with annual revenue comparable to that of Microsoft, Huawei can pour a lot of money into replacing core U.S. technology in its products. What is more important, by intentionally sourcing from Chinese suppliers, large companies such as Huawei can provide Chinese component makers with crucial opportunities to gain experience and develop new technical competencies.

    On average, Chinese chip and optical component suppliers are inferior to international leaders, since they lack scale and the ability to iterate their products with large customers. Orders from a company of Huawei’s size could change that.

    Replacing the many U.S. suppliers on which Chinese companies rely will be a tall order, and at least in the short term, Chinese suppliers will be unable to fully meet the needs of companies such as Huawei. Advanced processors and chipsets that power the cutting-edge computation involved in machine learning, cloud computing, and 5G networks are almost exclusively developed by a handful of Western companies.

    Although some Chinese companies, such as Huawei’s chip unit HiSilicon, can build their own chips for some applications, they still rely on U.S. software and intellectual property to design the chips and international foundries, such as Taiwan’s TSMC, to manufacture them.

    Nevertheless, China does have several factors working in its favor.

    For starters, it doesn’t need to develop everything itself. Chinese companies have long been comfortable acquiring technology abroad through partnerships, mergers and acquisitions, or outright intellectual property theft. U.S. export controls wouldn’t stop most of these, as they restrict only the export of U.S. technology or foreign products that contain significant U.S.-origin software or components.

    Technological partnerships and academic exchanges between China and the European Union played a critical role in China’s development of the BeiDou constellation. And Chinese state-backed funds, often using offshore shell companies, have proved adept at evading scrutiny from U.S. sanction enforcers. As the U.S. technological embargo expands, so will the opportunities to poke holes in it.

    Another advantage is China’s enormous domestic market. Few companies outside the United States are able to turn down opportunities to sell in China, and even fewer governments are willing to stomach the economic pain of turning away Chinese demand at Washington’s say-so.

    The Trump administration’s unsuccessful campaign to get Europe to ban Huawei from building its 5G network should have been a warning sign of the limited tolerance of U.S. allies for Washington’s brinkmanship. Instead, the administration is doubling down on a strategy that anticipates allies toeing the U.S. line.

    It didn’t have to be this way.

    The United States could have maintained the rift between government and industry in China if it had ensured China’s continued dependence on U.S. technology. Instead, the Trump administration’s actions against ZTE and Huawei have turbocharged China’s self-reliance drive, aligning the interests of government and industry.

    Although in the short term the pain imposed on China’s tech industry by the blacklisting might appear to vindicate the administration’s move, over the long term its actions will pave the way to a more technologically formidable China.

     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    From a technical point of view what you're considering as an act that 'does not exist',
    No, I'm talking about factual, not technical. This technical aspect does not exist because no one committed it.

    from a legal perspective, it's the same as the US government banning ZTE from using american hardware or software
    the same can be applied to Huawei.
    No. There is a difference between:

    The US banning doing business with Huawei.
    US companies trying to block Huawei users Worldwide from using their apps.

    or the Chinese government banning almost every other american website or service in China.
    That's also another different issue.

    Google owns its software, apps and services and they can do whatever the hell they want with it.
    Google stopped its services as a compliance with the ban. It was explained enough and you are free tounderstand what you want from it.

    If you and/or Huawei think there's a legal breach, you and/or Huawei are more than welcome filing law suits to american courts and chasing them there.
    Thanks for the advice.
     
    Resign

    Resign

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    No, I'm talking about factual, not technical. This technical aspect does not exist because no one committed it.
    I just gave you an example of Apple restricting access to its services except to apple devices
    Or Blackberry and their BBM service

    No. There is a difference between:

    The US banning doing business with Huawei.
    US companies trying to block Huawei users Worldwide from using their apps.
    i don't see the difference
    the US can deny Huawei the rights of using American software
    and to go the extra mile, American companies can comply by denying service to Huawei devices in the same technical way i described above
    A ban to Google's app store and service is something already on the table..


    That's also another different issue.
    It is not a different issue at all
    the Chinese government placed the ban
    Chinese ISPs complied technically blocking all requests coming out of China to american websites

    Google stopped its services as a compliance with the ban. It was explained enough and you are free tounderstand what you want from it.
    Yes, and nothing is stopping them from going the extra mile
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    I just gave you an example of Apple restricting access to its services except to apple devices
    Or Blackberry and their BBM service
    "Sevices"....That's different than just using an app.

    i don't see the difference
    Yet it's there.

    the US can deny Huawei the rights of using American software
    The US gov can do whatever it likes. We're here to talk about the US gov banning US entities from doing business with Huawei or using certain of their products.

    and to go the extra mile, American companies can comply by denying service to Huawei devices in the same technical way i described above
    A ban to Google's app store and service is something already on the table..
    You still don't get it that there is a difference between not wanting to do business with Huawei, one one side, and blocking consumers from properly using their Huawei devices, on the other side.

    It is not a different issue at all
    Ok fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish to understand and believe.

    the Chinese government placed the ban
    Chinese ISPs complied technically blocking all requests coming out of China to american websites
    Different debate.

    Yes, and nothing is stopping them from going the extra mile
    Nothing stops anyone from going as much extra miles as he wishes or thinks he can go.

    Point is, we're talking about what exist NOW, not about what we believe might exist some day.
     
    Resign

    Resign

    Well-Known Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Sevices"....That's different than just using an app.



    Yet it's there.



    The US gov can do whatever it likes. We're here to talk about the US gov banning US entities from doing business with Huawei or using certain of their products.



    You still don't get it that there is a difference between not wanting to do business with Huawei, one one side, and blocking consumers from properly using their Huawei devices, on the other side.



    Ok fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish to understand and believe.



    Different debate.



    Nothing stops anyone from going as much extra miles as he wishes or thinks he can go.

    Point is, we're talking about what exist NOW, not about what we believe might exist some day.
    "Sevices"....That's different than just using an app.


    Yet it's there.


    Ok fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish to understand and believe.



    Different debate.



    I see this is going no where
    i rest my case here
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    "Sevices"....That's different than just using an app.

    Yet it's there.

    Ok fine. You are free to believe whatever you wish to understand and believe.

    Different debate.


    I see this is going no where
    i rest my case here
    Yes better. We can now at least get back to discuss what is happening, instead of debating something that is not taking place.
     
    HannaTheCrusader

    HannaTheCrusader

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Blacklisting Huawei, however, has turbocharged the indigenous innovation effort. As a r

    chinese biggest myth

    great let them innovate, for a change
    competition is healthy for all
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    chinese biggest myth

    great let them innovate, for a change
    competition is healthy for all
    Ok, if you want.
    5G is a big Chinese myth and that's why China is way ahead of probably anyone else in this tech sector.

    Then again yes, these events might turn out to be a blessing in disguise, not only for firms like Huawei, but also for consumers Worldwide.
     
    HannaTheCrusader

    HannaTheCrusader

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Ok, if you want.
    5G is a big Chinese myth and that's why China is way ahead of probably anyone else in this tech sector.

    Then again yes, these events might turn out to be a blessing in disguise, not only for firms like Huawei, but also for consumers Worldwide.
    good for them
    they got where they got through stealing of technology

    maybe time, they can continue on their own

    why are they throwing fits cause usa is censoring their own technology ?

    again

    all these articles they keep posting about usa loss to china, and losses from censoring china
    they are glorified paid advertisements really,

    chinese students comes to usa to learn about technology and not vice versa, cause usa still by far NO1 by light years

    china have no way but to give trump concessions. its the logical thing and only way
    and huwaei and others will abide by the rules.

    wait till usa demands financial and banking reforms ...
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    good for them
    they got where they got through stealing of technology

    maybe time, they can continue on their own

    why are they throwing fits cause usa is censoring their own technology ?

    again

    all these articles they keep posting about usa loss to china, and losses from censoring china
    they are glorified paid advertisements really,

    chinese students comes to usa to learn about technology and not vice versa, cause usa still by far NO1 by light years

    china have no way but to give trump concessions. its the logical thing and only way
    and huwaei and others will abide by the rules.

    wait till usa demands financial and banking reforms ...
    Seriously Hanna...What you're advancing here defies even the laws of gravity. Your vision about US "grandeur" and China's "petiteness" is caricaturist. Reminiscent of cold-war era propaganda against the Soviet Union. I can't argue with that. 60 years have passed. We live in a different World today, and facts speak otherwise. That's all I can tell you.
     
    HannaTheCrusader

    HannaTheCrusader

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Seriously Hanna...What you're advancing here defies even the laws of gravity. Your vision about US "grandeur" and China's "petiteness" is caricaturist. Reminiscent of cold-war era propaganda against the Soviet Union. I can't argue with that. 60 years have passed. We live in a different World today, and facts speak otherwise. That's all I can tell you.
    what we are witnessing is a cold war
    but fought with technology, finance and media

    make no mistake

    usa started seeing china as a major challenge from clinton days
    when he reversed years of policy and opened up to vietnam

    even obama , realized that and started shifting usa powers towards the east to face china
     
    Abou Sandal

    Abou Sandal

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    what we are witnessing is a cold war
    but fought with technology, finance and media

    make no mistake

    usa started seeing china as a major challenge from clinton days
    when he reversed years of policy and opened up to vietnam

    even obama , realized that and started shifting usa powers towards the east to face china
    Yes I agree with that. Obviously.

    But I still insist: The US is doing it wrong. Protectionism and Isolationism are bad tools. Proved bad decades ago, when America was far stronger and the whole World was far weaker and dependent. Will prove that it is even worse today, if not fatal.
     
    HannaTheCrusader

    HannaTheCrusader

    Legendary Member
    Orange Room Supporter
    Yes I agree with that. Obviously.

    But I still insist: The US is doing it wrong. Protectionism and Isolationism are bad tools. Proved bad decades ago, when America was far stronger and the whole World was far weaker and dependent. Will prove that it is even worse today, if not fatal.
    usa is asking for a fair deal that suits both nations

    cant you see how much china has benefited from others while protecting their own

    china cant have it both ways,


    time for china to open up its markets, companies for foreign ownership ( the way the usa does)

    anno china blocks FB< whatspp, etc and others have no right to retaliate
    chinese can own companies and others cant in china
    same goes for banks etc
     
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